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[Anne]

"Go play X game instead" is not constructive advice. I honestly don't mind the combos in street fighter, or air dash anime type games, just don't prefer it.

I think it's pretty constructive when somebody says "I prefer X over Y" to say "well go play Y." Either you play the thing with a system you prefer or you compromise with the system you don't prefer

Like you can criticize things, sure, but from what you're saying to me is that you probably aren't going to be into most traditional combo systems.

It's really funny to hear you say this, since Dave Sirlin himself is designing a fighting game where the longest possible combo is like 3 hits. It appears to not suck; I saw it at PAX South this year.

Every fighting game David Sirlin has ever touched has ended up being hilariously bad in some way or another, so I wouldn't get your hopes up. In most fighting game circles I run in he's kinda considered somewhere between a hack and just a generally awful dude. The fact he's pushing this concept all the way through is more proof than anything he doesn't really get traditional fighters tbh.

 

[lvl99 Pixel]

I think it's pretty constructive when somebody says "I prefer X over Y" to say "well go play Y." Either you play the thing with a system you prefer or you compromise with the system you don't prefer

Like you can criticize things, sure, but from what you're saying to me is that you probably aren't going to be into most traditional combo systems.

I literally just said I don't mind it
telling someone to stick to one game because it has a combo system you find more fun is nonsense. Ill continue to play every kind of fighter :|

 

[PillarEN]

Does it bother you? No

Is it unavoidable for gameplay reasons? No

Can it be improved visually at least? Yes

Also, are there any fighting games that don't do this? EA boxing games. The UFC type of games.

 

[Hyun Sai]

The thing that always makes me laugh is when I hear people criticizing Tekken for this when 2D games are BY FAR the worst offenders.

 

[Kinyou]

It looks silly but in most games it's critical to the gameplay, so I doubt it's going anywhere

 

[StayDead]

Juggling is awesome. I don't think they should remove it, rather people should play other fighting games that don't have it (which exist btw)

 

[Anne]

I literally just said I don't mind it
telling someone to stick to one game because it has a combo system you find more fun is nonsense. Ill continue to play every kind of fighter :|

I'm telling you that you either compromise or you don't on these kinds of things. You compromised, which is fine since it's something pretty stuck in the genre.

 

[Skab]

I don't think it's outrageous to prefer a fighting game that looks like a "proper martial arts simulator" without crazy physics.

MMA games are good and all. But i would still like to see a game with traditional/stereotypical fighters of various different styles, various costumes and backgrounds but retaining the MMA realism.

Other than that, i don't mind the juggling gameplay mechanic as a mechanic that much. It's mostly the animations that look off. Maybe they could use specific animations for these things so at least it looks right?

That would be an incredibly awful and just plain boring fighting game though.

 

[Kneefoil]

The animations don't bother me (in most fighting games, anyway), and it can feel rewarding when you manage to juggle someone.

The only issue I have with juggling is that it makes it a lot more obvious when someone's doing a long combo that the opponent can't do anything about. It's combos like that that make games like Marvel and Tekken less interesting for me to watch than, say, Street Fighter.

 

[HardRojo]

I read the title and all I can think about is Yun performing Genei Jin combos in Third Strike (with a bunch of Hey! in the background). How can you hate that?

 

[thepenguin55]

Bushido Blade is a great fighting game without juggling and the combat is pretty realistic. You can make great fighting games without juggling but you kind of have to stray from the traditional formula to do so.

 

[sibarraz]

Play Samurai Shodown

Even the latest 3d game barely have them (but because the combo system sucked)

 

[Raitaro]

I agree with the OP in the sense that I never liked how juggling looked in 3D games like Tekken and Virtua Fighter. Generally I'm more ok with it in the Marvel games or most 2D games in general.

Seeing a 3D fighting game model on his/her back in the air while being kept airborne with jabs by an opponent standing upright just takes me out of the "wow, look at these characters engage in an awesome fight!" mindset and instead makes me hyper aware of the fact that I'm looking at polygons that behave according to gravity variables and hitboxes.

As said, in most 2D games, this is less of an issue to me for some reason, especially in sprite-based ones but in quite a few polygonal ones too. Maybe that's because they look more like a "game" instead of "realistic"? That said, the modern NetherRealm games bother me a bit more again due to their realistic character proportions so maybe that's a factor for me as well.

Guess it's a matter of gameplay depth / options vs aesthetics and games mimicking actual fighting.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

Juggling is awesome and i am not only talking about fighting games.
Plus they are many types of fighting games and some don't have it.
So there is something for everyone .

 

[bagandscalpel]

Play Samurai Shodown

Even the latest 3d game barely have them (but because the combo system sucked)

Oh yes, at least that route won't lack for realism.

 

[petran79]

Play Samurai Shodown

Even the latest 3d game barely have them (but because the combo system sucked)

In Last Blade Akari's charge down,up, C, charge down, up, C, f, d, b, f, AB is the most satisfying juggle move in any 2d fighter

 

[MikeBreezy92]

The fact that the opponent is flailing in mid-air is one of the best parts about it tho. But you can't change it too much because you still need visual tells in fighters.

Mhm mhm

 

[SAB CA]

To me, the natural way to try to make juggling "look right" is when characters have obvious hit states that control their reactions. Crushing people to the ground with leaping blows, causing them to spin out after hitting them with a strong blow / counter hit, or grappling them in a way that naturally flows with the motion (like the Air-Juggle grapples in DOA), helps illustrate a natural, sensible flow of action better.

It's a good mix of gameplay clarity, that simultaneously limits the "jabs that juggle for days" hokey-ness that Netherrelm games do.

But the reason crazy hit-states and "unrealistic" juggling sticks around, is the same reason why 2D plane-style characters and heavily key-framed motions stay in fighters; it makes it easier to tell what in the world is going on.

And this... just works. It works so well that you'll often see people try and figure how to bring the unrealistic moves into action movies, TV shows, or try to get the feel and impact of 2D motions in games that aren't limited to a flat plane. Characters in fighters could have 100s of reaction motions, just like an Uncharted. But it wouldn't add anything; most players would probably find it detracting from the experience. "Realism" doesn't play well with the skillful play people want from fighters. Mechanical stats like hitstun, recovery frames, start-up, and hitboxes are some of the furthest things from realism possible.

And the further you go down the "realism" rabbit hole... the more you have to make other things "fit" what's being presented. Imagine all the things "out of the players control", that a realistic fighter could / should take into consideration?

• Traction on the ground.
• Wind direction effecting strength of impacts.
• Cloth that actually gets hung up on a characters own body, delaying, slowing, and stopping attacks.
• Attacking characters getting limbs stuck in opponents clothes.
• The use of dangling cloth and hair to pull opponents back in, or pin them to walls / floors.
• Broken objects hurting the fighters, throwing off their footing, possibly killing them.
• Light possibly blinding characters, or hiding attacks from victims.
• Projectiles and elemental effects interacting with the world, and causing the area to change randomly every battle. (Imagine the stage burning down during a long set of fights?)
• Potential of Fatigue setting in.
• Injuries, tired limbs, useless limbs, unreasonably long stagger and dizzy states.

Personally, I wish some of this stuff made it into more modern fighters. But I think it'd be a wholly separate genre from what 2D gameplay fighters are. We'd get some weird mega-mix of features from Powerstone, Tao Feng, Virtua Fighter 3, Bushido Blade, and stuff that really is never done in any games at all.

The game would probably have 4 characters, go for a premium price, and never make back what it took to get so many intricate systems working...

 

[HStallion]

There are tons of fighting games that don't focus on combos or juggles as well. They just aren't nearly as in demand or popular as the more normal style of fighting game that does rely on those elements.

Speaking of we need a modern day Bushido Blade with insane physics for everything.

 

[MikeBreezy92]

I think trying to "immerse" yourself​ in fighting games is a fool's errand tbh and is probably a reason why people get hung up on long combos and how juggles look etc. It's just not necessary.

 

[jett]

Removing combos nah man a fight usually starts off like this looking for an opening

Once you land the first hit.. well you capitalize

 

[RoadHazard]

That looks like shit.

 

[MikeBreezy92]

That looks like shit.

Oneida don't hurt em lol

 

[sixteen-bit]

Maybe they're fighting on the moon

 

[EVOL 100%]

I agree somewhat with the sentiments of the OP, but not with the reasoning.

The biggest reason why I never had more than a casual interest in Tekken is because of the heavy emphasis on juggling. Memorizing that shit never was fun, even when I was the one juggling. It turns the game into a test of reflexes and mind games into a 'press the right buttons' sequence.

It's also the reason why I like Soul Calibur so much. The inputs and timing are much more lenient, so learning a juggle doesn't feel like pulling teeth out and juggles are generally short.

 

[Head.spawn]

Don't worry friend I have the cure for what ails you.

Holy shit.

I guess I always felt it was weird that games artificially pushed you away from being able to do a certain amount of hits but I just got all of that thinking out of my system watching this.

 

[oneida]

That looks like shit.

I don't agree

 

[oneida]

I agree with the OP in the sense that I never liked how juggling looked in 3D games like Tekken and Virtua Fighter. Generally I'm more ok with it in the Marvel games or most 2D games in general.

Seeing a 3D fighting game model on his/her back in the air while being kept airborne with jabs by an opponent standing upright just takes me out of the "wow, look at these characters engage in an awesome fight!" mindset and instead makes me hyper aware of the fact that I'm looking at polygons that behave according to gravity variables and hitboxes.

As said, in most 2D games, this is less of an issue to me for some reason, especially in sprite-based ones but in quite a few polygonal ones too. Maybe that's because they look more like a "game" instead of "realistic"? That said, the modern NetherRealm games bother me a bit more again due to their realistic character proportions so maybe that's a factor for me as well.

Guess it's a matter of gameplay depth / options vs aesthetics and games mimicking actual fighting.

generally characters are not in the air very long in VF. probably less time than any fighting game not called Soul Calibur

 

[Temp_User]

That looks like shit.

The gif looks like a wall crumple instead of an air juggle. Looks like the spinning heel kick knocked the character into a wall along a diagonal path instead of straight back.

 

[oneida]

The gif looks like a wall crumple instead of an air juggle. Looks like the spinning heel kick knocked the character into a wall along a diagonal path instead of straight back.

This is the start of a wall combo, you're correct.

 

[old]

Tekken takes it a little too far. One optimized juggle can take away like 60% of the life bar. Two good juggles and you win.

 

[vixlar]

In teh first page someone put a combo from Karin on Street Fighter 5. In there, you can see some power on her moves, both in the launcher, in the juggler and in the finisher, and the reaction to each move have some logic. That's a good juggle aimation for me.

When I don't like juggles is, for example, Mortal Kombat, where you can juggle with jabs. You throw a weak jab to the right to an airborn enemy, the enemy goes up, and the force and reaction of the body don't correspond to the animation of the jab. That's the kind of juggles I don't like.

 

[ibrahima]

These animations look amazing though. Because they also look realistic. Imagine Ryu doing the usual juggling hop in the second gif.

Here's the thing though; in Street Fighter, Tekken and other fighting games juggles provide a means to allow extended combos that are limited past a certain point, they provide a system with a set of rules that can be worked within to maximise your damage and positioning advantage against your opponent, much like how martial arts in real life depends in part on getting a beneficial position and hitting your opponent before they can recover.

The difference is that juggle combos describe and enable this kind of technique in a way that can be applied to a video game, allowing a means to vary this across each game. If fighting games behaved like real life they really wouldn't be very fun.

Juggle combos in Tekken behave differently from Juggle combos in Street Fighter, but they both provide a means to describe a more applicable and enjoyable version of something that wouldn't really achievable or desired if it was applied strictly within the confines of a fighting game. Much like how stamina wheels in Zelda and health stats in doom describe things from real life in a way that is applicable and enjoyable.

Realism is not a sacred cow in video games, nor should it be. Playing a video game for me is about describing and understanding a system and set off rules that has been laid out in front of the player and being able to apply and exploit that system in a way that is enjoyable. Hence juggles exist in fighting games.

 

[Shingro]

Will second VF as a good series to avoid extensive juggling. It's there but it's not extensive and also has different "weight" characters and more crumples as a combo state.

Play as Jeffery and you'll sink through juggles like a rock.

 

[oneida]

Will second VF as a good series to avoid extensive juggling. It's there but it's not extensive and also has different "weight" characters and more crumples as a combo state.

Play as Jeffery and you'll sink through juggles like a rock.

yup most max dmg combos vs jeffry tap out at 5 hits

 

[Alx]

Also the ground/bouncing combos... I don't really care about realism, but I do care about believability. And seeing moves that obviously whiff over the player's bouncing model but still register as part of a combo is... wrong.

That's a good illustration of my issue : there's no reason Pai's last two flying kicks hit the opponent. The combo should have stopped at 6.

 

[udivision]

generally characters are not in the air very long in VF. probably less time than any fighting game not called Soul Calibur

This is what I mean by 3D fighters being more awkward about it than 2D ones.

I understand that the floatiness is a key part of the gameplay, but it reminds me of messing around with Hit Velocity in MUGEN.

 

[Alienous]

It's actually why I like Tekken - it makes combos feel fairly natural, due to he fact that you know your opponent can't block in the air. Your goal is to just keep your opponent in the air.

Otherwise you have to consider things like hit-stun.

 

[old manatee]

In general I would much rather play a fighter like Bushido Blade or Nidhogg, where it's more about positioning yourself for a critical blow. Memorizing a giant chain of moves to keep an opponent stun-locked is tedious for me, and being on the receiving end is frustrating.

 

[Diablohead]

Does it bother you? Is it unavoidable for gameplay reasons? Can it be improved visually at least?

Also, are there any fighting games that don't do this?

Most boxing and UFC games? those are focused on real fights more then the rest.

 

[oneida]

That's a good illustration of my issue : there's no reason Pai's last two flying kicks hit the opponent. The combo should have stopped at 6.

Yeah the hitbox on Pai 9KK is a little wonky there but the point is each hit visibly has a unique effect vs the opponent and instances of moves not actually connecting with the 3D model are typically less common than in most 2D fighters.

 

[Crayon]

I'll be damned.

 

[Peltz]

You have to play Melee.

Yep:

It looks way better at 60fps though.

 

[irfaanator]

when I see a combo like this in a video game I just rage so hard. This isnt fun. I dont want to lose over 70% life for one mistake while I watch a single player game. Also look how easy this combo is, it's just one button mostly. Tbh the best fighting game made is divekick and not sure why it isnt more main stream in the fighting game community. All footsies no combo bullshit. You know what else is like juggling but opposite? Timing somebody out. Thats like the same thing when your opponent just holds block all day and I can't do any damage to him. Where's the honor in that? There should be some system where you can only block like 3 times in a round or game or have some sort of stamina system of blocking, that way people cant just hold guard all day.

 

[cireza]

I hate juggles and find them ridiculous. But I don't really have a choice but to bear with it since most fighting games include them.

 

[Korigama]

when I see a combo like this in a video game I just rage so hard. This isnt fun. I dont want to lose over 70% life for one mistake while I watch a single player game. Also look how easy this combo is, it's just one button mostly. Tbh the best fighting game made is divekick and not sure why it isnt more main stream in the fighting game community. All footsies no combo bullshit. You know what else is like juggling but opposite? Timing somebody out. Thats like the same thing when your opponent just holds block all day and I can't do any damage to him. Where's the honor in that? There should be some system where you can only block like 3 times in a round or game or have some sort of stamina system of blocking, that way people cant just hold guard all day.

Guard gauges? Some fighters already have those.

 

[『Inaba Resident』]

when I see a combo like this in a video game I just rage so hard. This isnt fun. I dont want to lose over 70% life for one mistake while I watch a single player game. Also look how easy this combo is, it's just one button mostly. Tbh the best fighting game made is divekick and not sure why it isnt more main stream in the fighting game community. All footsies no combo bullshit. You know what else is like juggling but opposite? Timing somebody out. Thats like the same thing when your opponent just holds block all day and I can't do any damage to him. Where's the honor in that? There should be some system where you can only block like 3 times in a round or game or have some sort of stamina system of blocking, that way people cant just hold guard all day.

this is a copypasta right?

 

[RM8]

It's really funny to hear you say this, since Dave Sirlin himself is designing a fighting game where the longest possible combo is like 3 hits. It appears to not suck; I saw it at PAX South this year.

This actually looks pretty cool, I'd give it a try.

 

[irfaanator]

Guard gauges? Some fighters already have those.

do they stop the person from blocking? I want a system that physical stops someone from blocking too much. I feel like it'd make these games better

this is a copypasta right?

huh? Why would you think that?

 

[WarRock]

Big Bang Upper into Big Bang Upper is the best combo.

If by best you mean worst, then yeah it is.

You would think with all tech available that fighting game genre would have evolved past being nothing more than a prelude from neutral into a what is esssentially a carnival act of how long can I keep my opponent in mid air.

Its a bad game convention that continues just because.

Combos on general are such bullshit nonsensical game design that has became far too entrenched in fighting games.

Its not going away probably ever(unless I somehow get to design a fighting game)

I don't like juggling either.
To be honest the fighting genre is in desperate need of reform.

Traditional 2D and 3D fighting games should absolutely exist but there needs to be more options for other people that didn't grow up playing Street Fighter or Tekken but want to play a fighting game.

OP try UFC 2 - The ground game isn't particularly fun but the stand up fighting in that game is really good. The system has reasonable depth and the fighting is much more realistic.

I am laughing.

Maybe some of you guys should just expand your horizons? Psychic Force. Power Stone. Gundam VS. Bushido Blade. Nidhogg. Wrestling games. Samurai Shodown (before IV, at least). For Honor. Blade Symphony. Fighter's Destiny. There is also plenty of fighting games in the SNES era without combos or cancelling mechanics. They mostly are awful.

Funny that combos are bad game design when they are a fundamental aspect of real life fighting too lol.

I am not ethically opposed to junggles, and I'm not a hater of traditional fighting games, but I have felt the genre has basically been running in place since... probably around the late 90s? What real innovations have there been since then? When was the last time there was a change that made everyone go "Oh, shit, yeah"?

GRD in UNIEL. The dualism of burst/overdrive in BBCP/CF. IPS in Skullgirls. Divekick, Barabari Ball and Nidhogg as whole. Casual friendly RCs in Xrd. Custom fatalities in MK:A (even tough they ended up sucking). Custom assists in Skullgirls. Custom teams in Jump! Ultimate Stars. Knocking your opponents' arm in Arms. Getting your enemy moves/a new super from mirror matches in Gowcaizer. The sword gauge in SamSho V. A lot of character specific mechanics in almost any game.

Not enjoying the nitty gritty of the genre doesn't mean there aren't innovations. Ask me what changed in FPS since the late 90s and all I know is "custom classes and loadouts, killstreak perks?". Ask me what changed in sports games and I got no clue.