sixteen-bit
Member
You might like Street Fighter Alpha 3. There's a guard meter that breaks the opponent's guard when depleted.
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The awful "knocking your opponent midair over and over again" in fighting games.
- Thread starter nkarafo
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ãInaba Residentã
Banned
Isn't that Bulleta combo extremely hard to do?
And your post just reads like bait to me
I feel like that would be a shitty, excessively obtuse way of dealing something that doesn't happen anywhere remotely near enough to warrant such a drastic reaction. Someone is ONLY blocking? Okay, that's what throws are for. They either get stuck in a loop or forced to stop turtling
That Dude John
Member
you should throw them, fam.
That combo you linked is one of the most difficult things to do in a game ever, lol. You could have posted pretty much any other long combo in any videogame and it would have made for a better argument.
Throw...them?
In games such as Street Fighter Alpha 3 and The King of Fighters XIV, excessive blocking eventually leads to that character's guard breaking, leaving them open to attack.
But yeah, usually the simpler solution to dealing with people who turtle is to throw them.
irfaanator
Banned
that doesnt work if theyre moving all over. I think i can get them with a throw then they just jump over me and walk back the other way, endlessly
combo doesnt seem that hard. it looks like one button a bunch of times tbh.
I hate juggling too. Not because it looks weird or anything but because it's just a stupid idea that shouldn't be as prevalent in the genre as it is. If fighting games are 1-on-1 tests of skill, why is the best way to win putting the opponent in a state where they literally can't do anything? At that point it's not a contest of skill, it's just pressing a button sequence to wail on a training dummy as long as you can. Marvel is especially dumb with this, it feels like something that just forgot it was a two player game.
Juggles/combos don't take skill?
ãInaba Residentã
Banned
thats definitely bait lol
The combo is the REWARD for playing well. If I land a combo on you, that means that I outplayed you or you messed up at some point.
The combo is the REWARD for playing well. If I land a combo on you, that means that I outplayed you or you messed up at some point.
You have to get to the point where you get the opportunity to start juggling which is a skill in itself. And usually long juggles are the hardest thing to do in the game, also more skill involved.
You know they're vulnerable when they're in the air, right? React, don't just walk across the stage whiffing grabs when you know they're going to jump, hit them with an anti-air. Hell, cross them up, hit them low then come in with an overhead, tick-throw. Turtling isn't some unstoppable strategy, if it were, you'd see it much more often at a competitive level.
"Fighting should be about testing yourself. Why would you ever pin somebody and pound their face in, not allowing yourself to be attacked back?"
Look at his avatar
irfaanator
Banned
whats my avatar? I just picked it up randomly a while back on tumblr b/c it looked cool
Wow, one tournament, it's spreading like fire -.- Come on now
HueyFreeman
Banned
The important distinction that anyone against juggling might not recognize is the difference between a good and mediocre fighting game: in a good fighting game, big combos like this will take serious skill to pull off. Mashing won't work. So to say it's "cheap" belies the skill required to pull it off, which rewards investment into the systems.
!!
!!
irfaanator
Banned
well here's another https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8vXYf8PYgc. Idk why you think it isnt a viable tactic at competitive level. I guess these guys shouldve went for throws and hit them out of the air right?
How people are playing at a competitive level is irrelevant at almost any other skill level. i.e. irrelevant to you.
These people know how to do everything that has been suggested and are playing better than their opponents. You're saying a certain style of play shouldn't be viable because you don't want to fight it.
ãInaba Residentã
Banned
Its bait
Juggling, yeah. I thought this thread was going to be about the actual game mechanic being stupid.
I'm not a huge fan of inescapable combos. I get they take skill to execute and (frequently) look cool as hell, but it's just something I generally do not like gene. I'm a believer that a minor mistake should be somewhat recoverable, but capitalizing on the mistakes of the opponent are while avoiding making more yourself are where fighting games shine. That's why I prefer Street Fighter over MvC or their ilk, as it's much more tactical and about the next move you do and not necessarily the next 10 move combo you do after a single hit confirm. More of a back and forth chess game then waiting for that one moment to click for muscle memory to take over.
Just my two cents, though. I'm not very good at fighting games, but I enjoy learning and watching them.
I'm not a huge fan of inescapable combos. I get they take skill to execute and (frequently) look cool as hell, but it's just something I generally do not like gene. I'm a believer that a minor mistake should be somewhat recoverable, but capitalizing on the mistakes of the opponent are while avoiding making more yourself are where fighting games shine. That's why I prefer Street Fighter over MvC or their ilk, as it's much more tactical and about the next move you do and not necessarily the next 10 move combo you do after a single hit confirm. More of a back and forth chess game then waiting for that one moment to click for muscle memory to take over.
Just my two cents, though. I'm not very good at fighting games, but I enjoy learning and watching them.
Northeastmonk
Gold Member
To me, the appeal of a fighting game is "what you can pull off". You are given movement and attack buttons.
If I hit you with a single punch over and over it might not be that exciting, which is why special moves and super arts are there. This to me produces strategy. Now you have this plethora of moves to create your own style.
What's next? Well, what connects. What hit can I do after someone is thrown in the air or someone who is still vulnerable. It comes down to the skill of the player.
I think juggling is a huge part of enjoying a fighting game. It's just every time we see it it's online or something and it typically means we lost faster than we started.
MvC3 has a lot of technical stuff to it. I didn't get to pull off those pick ups from the ground. I can get them back up in the air once more, but only with certain characters. I can't keep hitting the character after their second hard knock down like you see at tournaments. There's amazing players out there, but I have no idea how to do a full life combo.
I'd say Tekken 3 and even Tekken Tag Tournament are good examples of juggling. They didn't have the bounce mechanic and you could learn what works in practice.
If I hit you with a single punch over and over it might not be that exciting, which is why special moves and super arts are there. This to me produces strategy. Now you have this plethora of moves to create your own style.
What's next? Well, what connects. What hit can I do after someone is thrown in the air or someone who is still vulnerable. It comes down to the skill of the player.
I think juggling is a huge part of enjoying a fighting game. It's just every time we see it it's online or something and it typically means we lost faster than we started.
MvC3 has a lot of technical stuff to it. I didn't get to pull off those pick ups from the ground. I can get them back up in the air once more, but only with certain characters. I can't keep hitting the character after their second hard knock down like you see at tournaments. There's amazing players out there, but I have no idea how to do a full life combo.
I'd say Tekken 3 and even Tekken Tag Tournament are good examples of juggling. They didn't have the bounce mechanic and you could learn what works in practice.
irfaanator
Banned
you would think with how fighting games are selling and their twitch streaming numbers on a regular day these companies would take the opinions on sites like gaf or reddit more seriously to help appeal to a wider audience
MikeBreezy92
Member
That's not even true....
Are you seeing "hold block the entire match" in this video? Timeouts, sure, but Infiltration is very clearly reacting to projectiles, getting in when he sees an opening and taking advantage of chip when his opponents get on the defensive, and players do tend to start playing more conservatively when they're low on health. Turtling though, as you described people ONLY blocking for entire matches, isn't just regular old conservative play. Someone turtling would not bother to throw out sonic booms on incoming projectiles or jump in on openings, they would keep their asses in that corner and run away when threatened. Something that you don't see very often when you watch the more than a few matches, but you seem more interested in cherrypicking so whatever
The Hermit
Member
That's pretty awesome
PleaseDontBanMe
Banned
I'm still upset I can't double jump in real life
irfaanator
Banned
While I did mention blocking specifically because thats what I see the most i was talking in regards to timeouts originally. Timeouts shouldnt be happening in fighting games, I feel like even in boxing fans are disappointed when a timeout happened in one of their big fights. I dont follow it much but do remember hearing about it
lucebuce12
Member
That's cause they look so darn unrealistic.
Spladam
Member
Guess you didn't even read the first page then...
I agree, I think there should be some kind of Rock Paper Scissors system for breaking combos up after one or two hits, just with some difficulty. I used to run my friends with King's multi throw combos until I did them so much they could escape them at will.
Same thing with Killer Instinct back it the day, it would turn into a back and forth C-C-C Combo breaker fest.
-tetsuo-
Unlimited Capacity
There are still guaranteed juggles though
My only take on this is, I agree with the OP that it looks dumb in a lot of the Gifs posted, but looks fine in a few to.
I'm sure it's fun though (for the one dishing it).
My preference would be for games pushing for a more realistic aesthetics, the over the top juggling (vertical push for regular hits), but for hits that make sense for real physics, like kee's and uppercuts, sure that can add to some kind of juggle. I like it becuase it makes the player choose their hits carefully if they want to maximize the juggle.
And yeah, many are confusing regular combos, and air combos with juggling.
I'm sure it's fun though (for the one dishing it).
My preference would be for games pushing for a more realistic aesthetics, the over the top juggling (vertical push for regular hits), but for hits that make sense for real physics, like kee's and uppercuts, sure that can add to some kind of juggle. I like it becuase it makes the player choose their hits carefully if they want to maximize the juggle.
And yeah, many are confusing regular combos, and air combos with juggling.
So...the new killer instinct then?
Exactly this! This is a big part of why I like Killer Instinct. Getting put in a combo puts you at a disadvantage, but you aren't just instantly helpless until you make another mistake in that situation. Contrast Street Fighter V, where I've seen plenty of clips of people getting sucked into massive combos where they end up getting stunned after losing tons of health. From one mistake. If I had time, I'd sift through r/StreetFighter for one such gif.
Caffeine
Member
your not trying hard enough
There is a lot of truth to this. Fighting games are pretty much exclusively played by a competitive crowd now days.
The only game that has success with both casual and hardcore players is Smash 4 (and SFV to some degree). The issue is that catering to 'a wider audience' means making the game shallower and less fun for the original competitive audience.
Smash 4 vs. Melee is the perfect example, Smash 4 took out a lot of the mechanics that made Melee great, and as a result the game is slower, less technical and more macro read based than micro read based game like melee. I would also argue that Melee, from a technical standpoint, is a better game than Smash 4.
Didn't MK sell like 5 million +?
Casuals play games if you give them a reason to. It's also why we won't see these animations revamped. They sell tons. They probably see no reason to "fix" them.