Tripolygon
Banned
Took too long.
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Turn 10: Nighttime racing & weather "isn't a minor thing" to add in Forza
- Thread starter shinobi602
- Start date
stargateheaven
Member
Night time is surely just changing the light source..
I assume the game has a working lighting and physics engine , how come day/night cycles and weather cant be simulated in those ?
To build a "bespoke track" with night and say rain would suggest more bakes lighting and fake placed weather rather than a physics engine that simulates the effects of weather.
To build a "bespoke track" with night and say rain would suggest more bakes lighting and fake placed weather rather than a physics engine that simulates the effects of weather.
Shin-Ra
Junior Member
hellmonkey
Member
I know this is a launch game n all, but I mean, wouldn't you make your engine and algorithms capable of handling dynamic weather and lighting so you don't have to re-render every god damn track and retune every car?
I hope you Forza fans get some of that in F6. Driving at night and/or in the rain is fun as hell. It really teaches you how to control the car. And nuts to driving assists. Give me a wheel and turn that shit off.
I hope you Forza fans get some of that in F6. Driving at night and/or in the rain is fun as hell. It really teaches you how to control the car. And nuts to driving assists. Give me a wheel and turn that shit off.
Sure it does, the position of the sun and moon affects gravity ever so slightly.
IDK if this is true but it sounds true.
ITT: Some people don't understand the cost and timespan of development.
Either that or I'm shit at detecting sarcasm? Things take time, money, R&D, etc.
New lighting and physics models for something like nighttime and rain (respectively) are basically new features entirely in a sim racing game.
Either that or I'm shit at detecting sarcasm? Things take time, money, R&D, etc.
New lighting and physics models for something like nighttime and rain (respectively) are basically new features entirely in a sim racing game.
plasmawave
Banned
AstroNut325
Member
Those statements make me appreciate GT that much more. The lack of dynamic lighting is what makes it so difficult from what I understand. You have to have a separate set of textures that correspond to the lighting conditions of the track. So every track needs to have multiple sets of textures for each time of day and weather condition. FUUUUUUU....
I do agree with Dan in the aspect of 60 fps. That is paramount in a racing sim. Just wish they would learn to include dynamic time change and dynamic weather.
I do agree with Dan in the aspect of 60 fps. That is paramount in a racing sim. Just wish they would learn to include dynamic time change and dynamic weather.
makingmusic476
Member
Two year dev cycles.
If I had to choose, I would MUCH rather have night racing than weather 50 ways from Sunday. Not that I mind weather, but night racing is just more interesting to me. As for "bespoke" comment, meh, I don't think anyone would care if the cars handled the same night or day.
Moreover, it seems like it would require less resources to draw a track at night. Am I wrong in assuming such is the case?
Portugeezer
Member
Isn't that only the case because everything is pre-baked? You'd expect they could overcome that hurdle with next-gen. Maybe for Forza 6 then, without being limited by the rush for launch.
I don't understand why they can't just bake the lighting for a night course.
I mean I understand s day > night transition is impossible with the current engine but it should be pretty simple to just make a level darker.
Pretty sure GT doesn't project shadows for each headlight, you can fake that stuff well enough.
I mean I understand s day > night transition is impossible with the current engine but it should be pretty simple to just make a level darker.
Pretty sure GT doesn't project shadows for each headlight, you can fake that stuff well enough.
Personally, I don't even care about dynamic lighting. I mean it's cool, but to throw out night racing because dynamic lighting is too taxing or difficult seems ridiculous to me. I would rather have the simple mechanic of racing at different times of day and night.
SatansReverence
Hipster Princess
Making night racing with dynamic time of day would actually be easier than their pre baked BS.
Make lighting engine, work done.
No deciding on what time of day to pause at usually pissing of a group of players. Easily looks more natural.
As for weather though, they should wait until it can be done properly. There is much more to it than a canned animation, some spray that looks almost identical to tyre smoke and reducing grip.
Granted, making either change won't be happening in no patch.
In GT6, for the most part (there are few exceptions) only the players car emits any light and that light doesn't create shadows.
Beyond the whole "it's getting dark and my headlights show some of the track/scenery" GT6s night racing is pretty shoddy when you actually look at it.
Make lighting engine, work done.
No deciding on what time of day to pause at usually pissing of a group of players. Easily looks more natural.
As for weather though, they should wait until it can be done properly. There is much more to it than a canned animation, some spray that looks almost identical to tyre smoke and reducing grip.
Granted, making either change won't be happening in no patch.
In GT6, for the most part (there are few exceptions) only the players car emits any light and that light doesn't create shadows.
Beyond the whole "it's getting dark and my headlights show some of the track/scenery" GT6s night racing is pretty shoddy when you actually look at it.
I'll gladly admit my ignorance as to why night racing requires a different physics model. Can you enlighten me?
that could be said about any car that someone really wants that happens to be DLC. If you don't like DLC, then you don't like DLC, but they're not specifically trying to screw Harp.
ThaRagingAsian
Banned
Thank god they went with 2D crowd cut outs. it would have been running at 20fps and thats a no no in my book.
Well Project Cars is at least coming to consoles.
SatansReverence
Hipster Princess
Track and air temperatures need to be simulated dynamically as they have relatively profound effects on race cars.
chrominance
Member
Forza and weather/time-of-day feels a lot like Gran Turismo and car modelling. Like, GT can do weather/nighttime, why can't Turn 10 get their shit together? Forza has tons of high-quality car models, why can't Polyphony get their shit together?
I begin to wonder if both franchises have these longstanding quirks because of arcane development issues (our engine wasn't built that way and we just can't fix it easily!) or weird organization culture issues (we've always done it that way and the other stuff just isn't a priority!).
(The two cases aren't quite the same because I think Polyphony DOES, in fact, build a second track for wet--at least they used to, haven't dug deep enough into GT6 to know if that's changed--whereas Turn 10 doesn't also hand-build cars like Polyphony does, if I remember correctly)
I begin to wonder if both franchises have these longstanding quirks because of arcane development issues (our engine wasn't built that way and we just can't fix it easily!) or weird organization culture issues (we've always done it that way and the other stuff just isn't a priority!).
(The two cases aren't quite the same because I think Polyphony DOES, in fact, build a second track for wet--at least they used to, haven't dug deep enough into GT6 to know if that's changed--whereas Turn 10 doesn't also hand-build cars like Polyphony does, if I remember correctly)
this is a simulator - are real races raced in the dark?
LOL
AstroNut325
Member
You can't be serious...
Let me guess.. "real" races don't take place during rain and other weather conditions too.
So true. I recently picked up Horizon and it is so much more enjoyable the main series.
Dependent on how their engine works, they'd essentially have two different maps and not one with two lighting scenarios. Which could either come down to an issue about time (whether they have it or not) or size (more levels means more GBs) or something else entirely.
The weather thing is a completely different beast with some many different hits from graphically to the physics being different/altered.
its the opposite for me, but i'm more of a sim guy
Not really comparable. Driveclub is a hybrid arcade racer, like Forza Horizon or Test Drive Unlimited. Forza is a hybrid sim, like Gran Turismo.
WATCH THIS.
They probably feel resources are better spent elsewhere but after five games you should still be reaching for the stars not the stitching on the dashboard. If it's not a minor thing, plan ahead, put your resources to good use and bring something new to the table instead of thesaurus speeches about how good your game is this time but in reality a little prettier.
Meccanical
Member
The fuck out of here.
I'm shocked by this opinion.
Thanks for the reply. I thought of that after I posted. However, why not handle it similar to what Nascar Racing 2003 did?
In that game you could set the ambient temperature when setting up a race. In fact, it was cheat of sorts because cold temps could mask a poor handling car. As I remember it, the temp was not dynamic, it was fixed.
phosphor112
Banned
Suck it up, GT5 and 6 did it well enough on the PS3, if you can't do it on the X1 then you guys obviously suck. There is no reason not to include it now.'
Oh, and look at that bolded above, it PROVES the game has static lighting. Now people can shove it anytime they say I'm full of shit with my "unfounded" claims.
As tracks cool down lap times really speed up and tires last longer.
Thanks, see my response above.
I think Greenwalt mentioned he didn't want to go half-way and do something as simple as baked lighting. I'm not an artist/tech director but while I think you could get away with baking some parts, you'd probably want some dynamism in terms of the headlights and shadows cast from at least the player vehicle headlights when hitting other cars or objects on the track.
T10 would probably then go all-in/in-depth on how headlight reflections affect their car shaders, the road, objects on the track, do a cost-benefit analysis on how it hits performance (does it mean they sacrifice some of the processing normally given to their physics model? do they downgrade visuals in someway... when they're already trying to improve the visuals to be realistic lighting conditions? Do they reduce the number of cars on the track?) after that. How does this affect MP if you expect to have multiple player-controller cars casting shadows from their headlights?
Combine this with rain (at night) and then further research goes into how your lighting and shaders need to react.
Suggesting major tweaks like this aren't really cheap. They need to be researched and tested to see how it affects the overall quality of the game, performance, etc.
I said respectively.
I work in the industry but I'm not a car nut so please excuse some of my admitted ignorance if I got any racing-specific stuff wrong.
Zuhzuhzombie!!
Member
.
Who does everyone keep bringing up driveclub? Is killzone shadowfall not enough to prove that visuals don't make the game enjoyable? Wait for GT7 on ps4 to make a fair comparison between console sims.
Being able to select different times of day matters more to me than weather, though it would be cool to see it EVENTUALLY in forza... I'll keep waiting I guess.
Being able to select different times of day matters more to me than weather, though it would be cool to see it EVENTUALLY in forza... I'll keep waiting I guess.
neat. thanks for actually answering my question.
Rallisport Challenge 2.
That was a cracking game. DICE made amazing racing games back then. Midtown Madness 3 was great fun as well. Nothing beats the online.
It is. It's about simulating the entire gamut of race conditions. Not just perfect racing conditions.
It can have you on the edge of your seat.
In that case the physics engine is still built for a dynamic temperature. Dynamic does not necessarily mean changing continuously, but could mean having multiple conditions.
So the engine could be designed to account for say 5 levels of temperatures based on what you manually set it at. If Forza is designed from the ground up to only handle one set, then making it support multiple sets is indeed a reworking of the engine.
Same with weather. Even if you just have dry and wet, two set points of humidity, if the engine is pre-baked based on dry, then the engine needs re-working to accommodate the other state.
I think Greenwalt mentioned he didn't want to go half-way and do something as simple as baked lighting. I'm not an artist/tech director but while I think you could get away with baking some parts, you'd probably want some dynamism in terms of the headlights and shadows cast from at least the player vehicle headlights when hitting other cars or objects on the track.
T10 would probably then go all-in/in-depth on how headlight reflections affect their car shaders, the road, objects on the track, do a cost-benefit analysis on how it hits performance (does it mean they sacrifice some of the processing normally given to their physics model? do they downgrade visuals in someway... when they're already trying to improve the visuals to be realistic lighting conditions? Do they reduce the number of cars on the track?) after that. How does this affect MP if you expect to have multiple player-controller cars casting shadows from their headlights?
Combine this with rain (at night) and then further research goes into how your lighting and shaders need to react.
Suggesting major tweaks like this aren't really cheap. They need to be researched and tested to see how it affects the overall quality of the game, performance, etc.
I said respectively.
I work in the industry but I'm not a car nut so please excuse some of my admitted ignorance if I got any racing-specific stuff wrong.
Sounds a lot like Kazanori and damage modeling. i.e. excuses.
personally, there's nothing I hate more in racing games than trying to race in the dark. I hate hate hate it. it's awful.
eso76
Member
T10's problem is they didn't really think ahead when designing their engine.
OR the 2 years cycle doesn't give them the time to completely redo their engine between chapters.
As far as driving AND racing go, FM5 is probably the best racer available on consoles, but the engine is holding them back.
OR the 2 years cycle doesn't give them the time to completely redo their engine between chapters.
As far as driving AND racing go, FM5 is probably the best racer available on consoles, but the engine is holding them back.