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[molnizzle]

I'm aware I was saying to read it again because what you were saying is pretty insulting.

...how? I thought it was commonly understood that both race and gender were social constructs.

I'm not trying to insult anyone, just trying to understand. If both of these identities are social constructs created to oppress a marginalized group then I have trouble understanding why they are treated differently.

 

[EdibleKnife]

I thought both gender and race were social constructs, though? People are born a particular sex, not a particular gender. Gender is something we made up to oppress people. Just like race.

Gender disphoria only exists as a condition not only because of societal expectations of particular genders but also because of the inherent biological differences between the male and female sex. The reason distress from disphoria in transgender idividuals is promenent during puberty is because of the conflict between how that transpersons body is developing in comparison to the gender they identify with. Such equivalent to race or ethnicity. There is no drastic seperation between being black and being white that could cause such disphoria. Particularly, as I mentioned, being of the male sex, biologcally is one thing. Being black is not just one thing. There are a wealth of people that could be considered black that doesn't just come down to dark skin and black hair. When we're talking about gender from a societal standpoint, not biological: Yes there are constructs i.e. being a woman means you must be a female caregiver who likes pink and being a man must mean you're muscular, hairy and dominant, etc. Those are the social constructs. There is still the reality of being biologically male or female.

 

[commedieu]

...how? I thought it was commonly understood that both race and gender were social constructs.

I'm not trying to insult anyone, just trying to understand. If both of these identities are social constructs created to oppress a marginalized group then I have trouble understanding why they are treated differently.

I don't think you know what commonly understood means.

Or what insult means.

Edit:

Seems mods are sleep.

*smokes a cigarette while cursing*

 

[NoblesseOblige]

Before the lock I'll just saw wow. I mean I guess if we're going to have gender swaps why not race but damn.

Oh well hope it works out for her I guess.

This is a level of ignorance that approaches hateful.

 

[HawksWinStanley]

Because white privilege is a very real thing and if a black woman tried to do the same there wouldn't be anywhere near the same sort of acceptance and shit like this only reinforces that notion. As well as reinforcing the stereotype of what black women are "supposed" to look like. As if there aren't a metric fuck ton of different skin tones, hair colors, body types etc. that any one black woman can have.

It worked for Beyonce.

 

[Crossing Eden]

...how? I thought it was commonly understood that both race and gender were social constructs.

I'm not trying to insult anyone, just trying to understand. If both of these identities are social constructs created to oppress a marginalized group I'm having trouble understanding why they are treated differently.

There's literally a video in the OP explaining the difference and why it's insulting.

It worked for Beyonce.

Does Beyonce call herself white?

 

[Ether_Snake]

If someone's wants to change sex but didn't feel like they were of the other sex until recently would they be wrong/not allowed/worthy of being insulted?


What if we even have proof it's not biologically motivated?

And if it's wrong, then are we going to have to have to do medical tests to make this determination on every transgender?

 

[WaffleTaco]

If someone's wants to change sex but didn't feel like they were of the other sex until recently would they be wrong/not allowed/worthy of being insulted?

Nope they wouldn't be.

 

[molnizzle]

Gender disphoria only exists as a condition not only because of societal expectations of particular genders but also because of the inherent biological differences between the male and female sex. The reason distress from disphoria in transgender idividuals is promenent during puberty is because of the conflict between how that transpersons body is developing in comparison to the gender they identify with. Such equivalent to race or ethnicity. There is no drastic seperation between being black and being white that could cause such disphoria. Particularly, as I mentioned, being of the male sex, biologcally is one thing. Being black is not just one thing. There are a wealth of people that could be considered black that doesn't just come down to dark skin and black hair.

I guess I just thought the entire point of our modern understanding of gender was that the biological sex you were born with has nothing to do with the internal gender you identify with. I've always thought the dysphoria to be something inflicted upon transpeople by society, not biology.

I don't think you know what commonly understood means.

Or what insult means.

Edit:

Seems mods are sleep.

*smokes a cigarette while cursing*

I meant commonly understood in academia. Just last semester I finally got around to knocking out my humanities credit through an intro philosophy course. Both gender and race were presented as social constructs. I thought that was the common understanding these days because it very much aligns with modern progressive thinking.

Sorry for derailing thread. I'm just trying to understand.

 

[Furyous]

*groans loudly*

Is it possible to change your race via surgery now?

I'm trying to wrap my head around this and I don't get it. Why would she honest want to do this?

I don't know whether to be happy she's so enamored with my skin tone or sad as shit she did this to begin with. I'm 99.9 sad as shit.... Paying homage is cool but this is going too damn far.

I'm laughing through tears as I wonder what the future holds for children.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

What if we even have proof it's not biologically motivated?

What does this even mean?

 

[Night.Ninja]

She actually looks like a monkey

 

[Misha]

I guess I just thought the entire point of our modern understanding of gender was that the biological sex you were born with has nothing to do with the internal gender you identify with. I've always thought the dysphoria to be something inflicted upon transpeople by society, not biology.

I meant commonly understood in academia. Just last semester I finally got around to knocking out my humanities credit through an intro philosophy course. Both gender and race were presented as social constructs. I thought that was the common understanding these days because it very much aligns with modern progressive thinking.

Sorry for derailing thread. I'm just trying to understand.

while research isn't nearly as common as it should be (guess who's preventing the funding of that...) theres some studies that suggest that gender differences are at times biological and that trans peoples brains often match their gender rather than designated sex.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-there-something-unique-about-the-transgender-brain/

 

[Kthulhu]

*groans loudly*

Is it possible to change your race via surgery now?

I'm trying to wrap my head around this and I don't get it. Why would she honest want to do this?

I don't know whether to be happy she's so enamored with my skin tone or sad as shit she did this to begin with. I'm 99.9 sad as shit.... Paying homage is cool but this is going too damn far.

I'm laughing through tears as I wonder what the future holds for children.

She's probably mentally ill.

 

[TimeEffect]

This very clearly seems like a mental issue to me, as offensive at it is.

Unlike the other woman who seemed to gain financially, if I recall...this just seems like a really sad scenario, and the breast implants just reinforce that there's something not right with her in the head

 

[MilkyJoe]

Remember that episode of Only Fools and Horses?

 

[Gin-Shiio]

Long term blackface is still blackface, and this shit is disgusting. My disenfranchisement, geneology, and identity as someone black cant be transferred to a white woman through a fucking surgery.

I would really not equal this to blackface at all. The use of that is mostly accompanied by stereotypic, racist portrayal of African culture. For all intents and purposes, it seems she just wants to have darker skin. It's not overtly different from people of color lightening their skin by the use of chemicals. I will quote myself from the previous page.

I'm not feeling overly invested in this woman's life choices, so I don't have much to say. However, I would advise against the assumption the motive of race had much to do with her decision. Race is a very American concept that we in Germany have long since abandoned and think to be antiquated. I'd be more inclined to believe she simply wanted to have dark skin rather than be a member of the "black race".

 

[Samara]

I would really not equal this to blackface at all. The use of that is mostly accompanied by stereotypic, racist portrayal of African culture. For all intents and purposes, it seems she just wants to have darker skin. It's not overtly different from people of color lightening their skin by the use of chemicals. I will quote myself from the previous page.

She said she wanted to be a black woman, not darker.

Women bleaching their skin is the same to you?

 

[Acinixys]

Whats the socially accepted term for this?

"Reverse Michael Jackson" sounds pretty racist

 

[FantasticMrFoxdie]

KendrickDamn.jpg

Jesus, Christ

 

[Ether_Snake]

What does this even mean?

It means what it means? How is it not clear? If someone wants to change sex even if there is no biological-related reasoning behind it should they be told it's weong or humiliated?

People in this thread keep drawing a distinction between her choice and a transgender person by saying the difference is that they feel this way because they were like that since birth. But if someone didn't feel that way since birth then it wouldn't be justified anymore?

 

[DeathyBoy]

I don't think tasteful is the best word to describe anyone but maybe Dennis at times. Everyone on the show makes poor choices, constantly. The Blackface and the cultural appropriation of other minority groups is used to highlight the gang's ignorance.

Yep. I mean they're the worst of the worst.

 

[Kinyou]

I'm not feeling overly invested in this woman's life choices, so I don't have much to say. However, I would advise against the assumption the motive of race had much to do with her decision. Race is a very American concept that we in Germany have long since abandoned and think to be antiquated. I'd be more inclined to believe she simply wanted to have dark skin rather than be a member of the "black race".

I thought so too, especially because I remembered some article where she only referred to it as extreme tanning. However if you take a look at her facebook page she makes it very clear that this is about race for her.

 

[Octavianus]

I guess I just thought the entire point of our modern understanding of gender was that the biological sex you were born with has nothing to do with the internal gender you identify with. I've always thought the dysphoria to be something inflicted upon transpeople by society, not biology.

I seriously doubt me telling my parrents I wanted to grow a penis so I could be just like all the others boys when I was four years old was somehow the result of society.

Jesus, why are we even having this discussion here?

 

[Redd]

Well it's her body. She's not hurting anybody so it's whatever.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

It means what it means? How is it not clear? If someone wants to change sex even if there is no biological-related reasoning behind it should they be told it's weong or humiliated?

What is an example of a reason for someone wanting to change their sex for non-biological reasons?

 

[Einchy]

Everything about this is great. It's so ridiculous that you'd swear it was fake.

 

[Frozenprince]

Why the fuck are we having the transracial argument in here? Go to any single obe if the Dolezal threads where there are hundreds of posts detailing and explaining why they aren't the same.

 

[How About No]

Wow. Just a reminder in case: There is no such thing as being transracial and please don't compare this woman to transgender peoples.

Before the lock I'll just saw wow. I mean I guess if we're going to have gender swaps why not race but damn.

Oh well hope it works out for her I guess.

oh,

 

[Ether_Snake]

What is an example of a reason for someone wanting to change their sex for non-biological reasons?

Why would I need to provide you a reason? Are you going to put people on some sort of trial to establish the validity of their reasoning? If they don't give you a satisfying reason are you going to attack them and humiliate them? What will your judgement be based on, and what right would you have to pass judgment on that person?

 

[Sunster]

I guess I just thought the entire point of our modern understanding of gender was that the biological sex you were born with has nothing to do with the internal gender you identify with. I've always thought the dysphoria to be something inflicted upon transpeople by society, not biology.



I meant commonly understood in academia. Just last semester I finally got around to knocking out my humanities credit through an intro philosophy course. Both gender and race were presented as social constructs. I thought that was the common understanding these days because it very much aligns with modern progressive thinking.

Sorry for derailing thread. I'm just trying to understand.

Just because race is a social construct does not mean it equal to or even similar to gender.

Race is a social construct in that, it did not even exist in any real way before colonialists made it real. "You're black. I'm white that means I get your land and resources." A black man is no different than a white man biologically. A black man is only black because his ancestors were labeled as such. He only looks different. So if I, a white man, were to change my looks to be similar to him would I become a black man? No. My ancestors still came from England (or Ireland. idk really) however long ago. My ancestors were never labeled. We made the labels. I'm not black. I never will be.

Gender is a social construct in that it's not biological. Sex is biological. I could be born a woman trapped in a man's body. Changing my sex is totally my choice and doesn't make me any more of a woman than I already am.

This woman in the OP. She needed to change her appearance to "become" black. Because she was never black to begin with. And like I said in the first paragraph, she never will be.

 

[Gin-Shiio]

She said she wanted to be a black woman, not darker.

I believe the quote in question was translated poorly, strongly altering its original meaning. She had this to say according to another German paper, Der Stern:

"Ich wollte schon lange eine knackige Bräune haben. Letztes Jahr war ich für mehrere Foto-Shootings in Los Angeles und Miami. Dort verbrachte ich meine komplette Freizeit am Strand in der Sonne. Doch die Farbe verblasste", sagte sie den beiden Moderatoren.
Deswegen ließ sich Martina von ihrem Arzt im Januar 2017 sogenannte Bräunungsinjektionen spritzen, damit sie dauerhaft "knusprig braun" aussieht. "Ich weiß, dass die Meinungen über mich gespalten sind. Aber meine Fans finden es okay, solange ich glücklich bin", sagt die 28-Jährige selbstbewusst.

I'll do the translation:

"I have always wantes a crisp tan. Last year, I was in Los Angeles and Miami for various photoshoots. I spent my entire time there at the beach, but my tan soon disappeared.", she told both moderators.
That is why in January 2017 Martina had her doctor give her so-called "tanning injections" so that she would permanently be "crisply tanned".
"I know opinions about me are divided, but my fans support me as long as I am happy" says the 28-year old.

http://mobil.stern.de/lifestyle/leu...se-frau-will-noch-brauner-werden-7417372.html

And this according to the Tag24:

"Ich habe nicht erwartet, dass es so dunkel wird, aber es funktioniert auch. Ich liebe es, und ich will es wirklich bis zum Extremen treiben."

I'll do the translating again:

"I didn't expect for [my skin] to be this dark, but it works for me. I love it and want to push it to the extreme.

https://www.google.de/amp/s/www.tag...ne-spritzen-und-ihre-brueste-aufpumpen-237310

Women bleaching their skin is the same to you?

Given these articles I would say yes, albeit the reverse. But then...

I thought so too, especially because I remembered some article where she only referred to it as extreme tanning. However if you take a look at her facebook page she makes it very clear that this is about race for her.

Makes me retract all of that. How utterly bizarre.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Only reason this woman gets taken seriously by some is because she's white.

If I said I was a 56 year old white investment bankers from Indiana no one would entertain my bullshit.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

Why would I need to provide you a reason? Are you going to put people on some sort of trial to establish the validity of their reasoning? If they don't give you a satisfying reason are you going to attack them and humiliate them? What will your judgement be based on, and what right would you have to pass judgment on that person?

Because I cannot for the life of me think of a reason somebody would undergo sex-reassignment other than to align their sex to their gender? You're the one who put forward that we have proof they're doing it for non-biological purposes, not me. So I asked for an example.

 

[chekhonte]

I'm totally fine with the undermining the idea of race no mater how ridiculous a package it may come in.

 

[Rktk]

I didn't see the outrage coming.

 

[Mahonay]

Nightmare fuel. She looks super unsettling.

 

[E92 M3]

Just because race is a social construct does not mean it equal to or even similar to gender.

Race is a social construct in that, it did not even exist in any real way before colonialists made it real. "You're black. I'm white that means I get your land and resources." A black man is no different than a white man biologically. A black man is only black because his ancestors were labeled as such. He only looks different. So if I, a white man, were to change my looks to be similar to him would I become a black man? No. My ancestors still came from England (or Ireland. idk really) however long ago. My ancestors were never labeled. We made the labels. I'm not black. I never will be.

Gender is a social construct in that it's not biological. Sex is biological. I could be born a woman trapped in a man's body. Changing my sex is totally my choice and doesn't make me any more of a woman than I already am.

This woman in the OP. She needed to change her appearance to "become" black. Because she was never black to begin with. And like I said in the first paragraph, she never will be.

Race is not a social construct - there are genetic differences between all of the races in the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_genetics

 

[Mammoth Jones]

I'm totally fine with the undermining the idea of race no mater how ridiculous a package it may come in.

Punch up tho...

 

[NHarmonic.]

The concern trolling has reached peak levels i see.

 

[Sunster]

Race is not a social construct - there are genetic differences between all of the races in the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_genetics

cool. I'm talking about the social elements of race and gender and how they are different. thanks for telling me genetics are the reason different races exist though. Research that did not even exist when the concept of race was created which is why race is for the most part, social. Humans are almost exactly the same with few cosmetic differences. Giving yourself the cosmetics of a black person will not make you black.

 

[sankt-Antonio]

Race is not a social construct - there are genetic differences between all of the races in the world.
]

There is a genetic difference between every single human being roaming the earth.
Race is a concept abandoned in Europe for the most part. There is a human race and within it ethnic cultures.

 

[Dynasty]

The way I see it is, transracial and transgender arent the same thing, there is no massive biological difference between a black man and white man when compared to the biological difference between man and women. The difference between a black man and white man(or anything in between) has more got to do with society so race is a social construct.

I see a lot of transphobic people(on websites such as twitter/facebook/youtube) try and use the transracial arguement in a way to argue against transgender people so there is a understandable knee jerk reactions on left leaning forums like Neogaf to even entertain the arguement. However I feel it is important to have these discussions in attempt to persuade as much as possible because transgender issues in general are something new, something gaining a lot of traction these days due to the work of LGBT communities voicing there opinions, something a lot of people havent really talked/thought about and if we want people to be accepting of LGBT community in general a discussion must be had. Of course this is all under the condition that the discussion can be done in a civilised way.

Now onto the subject white to black or vice versa surgery and anything in between(a subject which I'm honestly not 100% on and have been going back and forth on for a while).
Saying all that, right now I'm pefectly fine with people changing the way they look because at the end of the day, this whole arguement in my eyes could be summed up to that. And to be clear I'm also perfectly fine with people pointing out the potential racism aspect that could be played into someone decision making, perfectly fine with people expressing the difference between transracial and transgender to make clear the distinction clear. And of course I'm against people personally insulting the person just over there decision.

Also I'm going to play catch up on this thread read the first page and just want to get my ideas out, hopefully the thread doesnt get locked too quickly.

 

[Gin-Shiio]

Race is not a social construct - there are genetic differences between all of the races in the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_genetics

"Some consider" doesn't make their claims valid. Most researchers consider the concept of race as a determant of biological traits nonsense. As for ancestry, that can be traced for different white people as well, as despite sharing the same skin color, their biological make-up is still different.

There is a genetic difference between every single human being roaming the earth.
Race is a concept abandoned in Europe for the most part. There is a human race and within it ethnic cultures.

.

 

[Rudimental]

Race is not a social construct - there are genetic differences between all of the races in the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_genetics

lol That article explicitly denies that races have specific genes.

Genetic analysis enables scientists to estimate the geographic ancestry of a person by using ancestry-informative markers, and by inference the probable racial category into which they will be classified in a given society. In that way there is a distinct statistical correlation between gene frequencies and racial categories. However, because all populations are genetically diverse, and because there is a complex relation between ancestry, genetic makeup and phenotype, and because racial categories are based on subjective evaluations of the traits, it is not the case that there are any specific genes, that can be used to determine a person's race.

 

[seat]

Is she going to be a Woodsman in the next episode of Twin Peaks?

 

[Salmonax]

How did they play this off so tastefully?

I guess they get away with it because it's never framed as anything but another of Mac's ignorant and terrible ideas, with Dennis strongly objecting to it.

I'm not sure how they slipped Dee in there, though. Unless I'm misremembering, they never talk about that at all.

 

[E92 M3]

lol That article explicitly denies that races have specific genes.

Of course, but there are subtle differences. We are all humans at the end of the day.

 

[sankt-Antonio]

Of course, but there are subtle differences. We are all humans at the end of the day.

What are these subtle differences you speak about?
Do they make one set of people better or inferior to another set of people?

 

[Flo_Evans]

I think this lady is bizarre but I don't see anything morally wrong with what she does to herself.