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[Phoenician_Viking]

Canvwe estimate from those how much will it cost to build the Xbone?

 

[Insane Metal]

The eSRAM square reads "109GB/s min, 204GB/s peak". Well, that's a freaking HUGE differente.

 

[Kazuma Kiryu]

I can see in the early days as devs come to grips with the hardware and have tight launch deadlines that the games will look very similar relative to graphics between the two machines. And it may be that some games genuinely look better on Xbox One because the devs implemented the right algorithms that suited the architecture of Xbox One.

But a year or so from now. When devs are working on their second or third next gen game. Then you'll start to see the difference. And that gap will only get larger.

The next 5 to 10 years is going to be horrible if you're an Xbox console warrior.

I don't know about multiplatform games, but in terms of 1st party developed games, i fully expect sony to easily come out ahead, perhaps starting as soon as next year. If there's anyone that's going to push the hardware to it's limit and use that power advantage, it's going to be them.

 

[Ding]

Unlike the PS4 who went above and beyond even the wildest rumours.

Wow, now that's some revisionist history!

 

[OldAsUrSock]

I'm guessing PC is Gohan?

PC is Omega Shenron

 

[badcrumble]

Most, if not all, big chips always have some sort of redundancy built in. It doesn't necessarily mean you use salvaged chips where cores/groups of cores are disabled.

that's how most chips are designed/fabbed

Thanks, guys. I learned something today!

 

[inherendo]

Wow, this reminds me of how the PS3's Cell chips had 8 SPEs, but only 7 had to be working for the console to be shipped (and it only made use of 7, IIRC), so that they could increase the yields*.

Xbox One has *way* too much PS3 deja vu, goddamn.



*could someone verify/debunk that for me? It's been a while, but that's what I remember.

This happens with all chips. If a chip is not up to spec, a company will disable parts and call it a lower sku. Called binning.

 

[Neuro]

What I gather from the thread is basically first gen games will look more or less identical in nature, all exclusives will look staggering

The x1 might take more development time than the PS4 but I understand the system is not fricking complicated, so devs might just find a way of fitting things onto the system.

Though am really curious what Unreal 4.0 engine game look on both the systems, from the PS4 demo, it lagged a lot from the original one they showcased.

 

[sankt-Antonio]

Xb1+PS3+X360 < PS4

Xb1: 1.31 TF
PS3: 250 gflops
X360: 230 gflops

PS4: 1.84 TF

That is kind of a crazy difference. Damn.

 

[level_e11even]

I see. Basically what't been rumored for a while. Lower shaders, lowe textures units, lower bandwidth and RAM allocation, lower RoPs, lower Z/Stencils, and most importantly, the absence of hUMA. Inferior to the PS4 in almost every way. Still pretty powerful for a console, however.

 

[ekim]

The the combined figure of different bandwidths added up. And it's bullshit because bandwidth doesn't work that way.

You have a bus for each RAM pool and you can read/write from/to both concurrently - so there are situations where you can add these numbers IMHO.

Edit: now that I look at it again - it seems clear that the 204GB figure is exclusive to the ESRam. Hm...

 

[Skytylz]

Before:
MS: Let's make system that's really easy to develop for and sell it for less than Sony's PS3!
Sony: Let's make a system with crazy architecture that's really hard to develop for and sell it for more than the 360!
Nintendo: lulz losers

Now:
MS: Let's make a system with crazy architecture that's really hard to develop for and sell it for more than the PS4!
Sony: Let's make system that's really easy to develop for and sell it for less than the Xbox One!
Nintendo: *shoots self*

The Xbone architecture is hardly abnormal. Development difficulty caused by the additional esram rather than a unified pool will cause no where near the difficulty the crazy cell processor caused.

 

[inherendo]

Canvwe estimate from those how much will it cost to build the Xbone?

Usually, a site will tear down a console and look at the parts and come up with an estimate on bill of materials. Might be hard because the kinect parts are gonna be difficult to price.

 

[Plinko]

I can see in the early days as devs come to grips with the hardware and have tight launch deadlines that the games will look very similar relative to graphics between the two machines. And it may be that some games genuinely look better on Xbox One because the devs implemented the right algorithms that suited the architecture of Xbox One.

But a year or so from now. When devs are working on their second or third next gen game. Then you'll start to see the difference. And that gap will only get larger.

The next 5 to 10 years is going to be horrible if you're an Xbox console warrior.

To be fair, I believe if we traveled back in time we could see several posts like this about PS3 and we all know how well that went.

 

[SRG01]

Thanks, guys. I learned something today!

The answer the MS rep gave when that particular audience question was asked is a typical PR answer; there is no getting around fabbing fundamentals when it comes to larger chips. There will be redundancies, there will be binning of parts, and there will be defects.

The biggest determinant of whether or not there will be shortages is the fab that MS is using and whether or not the process node they choose is well understood/used.

 

[velociraptor]

The Xbone architecture is hardly abnormal. Development difficulty caused by the additional esram rather than a unified pool will cause no where near the difficulty the crazy cell processor caused.

True.

We've still got the same basic architecture present in the PS4.

8 core jaguar processor, AMD GPU.

To be fair, I believe if we traveled back in time we could see several posts like this about PS3 and we all know how well that went.

Perhaps but the comparison is much more direct. There is no way you can dispute the raw GPU advantage the PS4 has.

 

[cyberheater]

I see. Basically what't been rumored for a while. Lower shaders, lowe textures units, lower bandwidth and RAM allocation, lower RoPs, lower Z/Stencils, and most importantly, the absence of hUMA. Inferior to the PS4 in almost every way. Still pretty powerful for a console, however.

Interesting. So the PS4 has hUMA does it. Please show me the slides or other official information that states that. Thanks.

 

[Bundy]

The Xbone architecture is hardly abnormal. Development difficulty caused by the additional esram rather than a unified pool will cause no where near the difficulty the crazy cell processor caused.

What he wants to say: It is more "difficult" than the PS4.

 

[itsgreen]

Before:
MS: Let's make system that's really easy to develop for and sell it for less than Sony's PS3!
Sony: Let's make a system with crazy architecture that's really hard to develop for and sell it for more than the 360!
Nintendo: lulz losers

Now:
MS: Let's make a system with crazy architecture that's really hard to develop for and sell it for more than the PS4!
Sony: Let's make system that's really easy to develop for and sell it for less than the Xbox One!
Nintendo: *shoots self*

That's nice, until you realize that the basic One architecture is pretty much the same as Xbox 360's...

It's just that PS4's memory solution is even simpler.

 

[Metfanant]

To be fair, I believe if we traveled back in time we could see several posts like this about PS3 and we all know how well that went.

but...at the same time the PS3 did have some significant hardware advantages...the Xbone doesn't seemingly have these...

 

[cyberheater]

To be fair, I believe if we traveled back in time we could see several posts like this about PS3 and we all know how well that went.

I believe this time will be different. The architectures are very similar. The increase in bandwidth of GDDR5 and the more powerful GPU will soon start to reveal themselves in first and third party games.

 

[Portugeezer]

edit: never mind, misread

 

[ekim]

but...at the same time the PS3 did have some significant hardware advantages...the Xbone doesn't seemingly have these...

I don't know if the PS4 has counterparts for the 15 special purpose processors in the Xbox One. Maybe the audio chip is an advantage as well as the customized Jaguar CPUs.

 

[PopcornMegaphone]

I believe this time will be different. The architectures are very similar. The increase in bandwidth of GDDR5 and the more powerful GPU will soon start to reveal themselves in first and third party games.

I think the real question is, by how much?

My guess is less than some people think. The differences aren't going to be huge.

 

[Melchiah]

I wonder was that 8GB flash a later addition, and how its absence on the PS4 affects the fluidity of the OS and switching apps?

 

[SRG01]

There's something that has been bothering me for the longest time about the XBO and the eSRAM: is it even possible to do simultaneous writes into both the main memory pool and the eSRAM? As in, the CPU writes to the eSRAM while the GPU is doing something to the main?

Something in the back of my head is telling me that there's a coherency issue here.

 

[onQ123]

Just notice that the Xbox One GPU is a DirectX 11.1+ GPU & the PS4 GPU is DirectX 11.2+ GPU is there any info out about the difference between a DX11.1 & DX11.2 GPU?

 

[USC-fan]

Cool info. Sucks for people at b3d with their crazy upgrade ram rumor.

Did they give perforance number for the flash storage?

 

[badcrumble]

That's nice, until you realize that the basic One architecture is pretty much the same as Xbox 360's...

It's just that PS4's memory solution is even simpler.

If anything, both the Xbone and the PS4 are easier to develop for than the 360/PS3. Neither one is particularly going to be difficult to work with, nor will there be that much of a learning curve for developers.

 

[IN&OUT]

And even then most consumers didn't care.

The only people who will care about the minor PS4 vs XB1 with games will be console warriors on message boards. If performance is is really that important to them they should buy PCs.

That said, I wish the XB1 was more powerful. It would increase the baseline for game development.

DF wars says otherwise. every single hw advantage matters to the hardcore, then hardcore will spread the word to the masses affecting X1 sales. if internet was widespread in 2000, Xbox sales would have fared much better compared to PS2, but large number of people bought PS2 and simply didn't know that Xbox even existed, let alone more powerful.

 

[Codeblew]

nm. misread.

 

[cyberheater]

I think the real question is, by how much?

My guess is less than some people think. The differences aren't going to be huge.

The differences for third party games will be minimal. But that's due more to the politics of ensuring parity for the consumers.

I think first party titles will start to show pretty soon. The increase in GPU alone will do that.

 

[MoneyHats]

I see. Basically what't been rumored for a while. Lower shaders, lowe textures units, lower bandwidth and RAM allocation, lower RoPs, lower Z/Stencils, and most importantly, the absence of hUMA. Inferior to the PS4 in almost every way. Still pretty powerful for a console, however.

Right, but how will that translate into games? You can day all of the above between a 660ti vs a 680, but I'm sure even years down the road both PC gamers will be content with their games and will want to upgrade around the same time.

 

[velociraptor]

If anything, both the Xbone and the PS4 are easier to develop for than the 360/PS3. Neither one is particularly going to be difficult to work with, nor will there be that much of a learning curve for developers.

According to Cerny... GPCPU

 

[OldAsUrSock]

Even Cerny added those numbers...

Tub King Cerny was showing that the way MS went was bad; they were going to go that route, but decided a better one.

 

[Dictator93]

Just notice that the Xbox One GPU is a DirectX 11.1+ GPU & the PS4 GPU is DirectX 11.2+ GPU is there any info out about the difference between a DX11.1 & DX11.2 GPU?

The thing is... I am not even sure if DX 11.2 is a declared feature set yet. So anything DX 11.1 + could essentially be in DX 11.2 or beyond it.

But more likely the PS4 GPU also has more "technical" capabilities... like the voltaltile tag ting.

 

[Bundy]

Right, but how will that translate into games? You can day all of the above between a 660ti vs a 680, but I'm sure even years down the road both PC gamers will be content with their games and will want to upgrade around the same time.

Your comparison doesn't make any sense.

 

[SenjutsuSage]

There's something that has been bothering me for the longest time about the XBO and the eSRAM: is it even possible to do simultaneous writes into both the main memory pool and the eSRAM? As in, the CPU writes to the eSRAM while the GPU is doing something to the main?

Something in the back of my head is telling me that there's a coherency issue here.

They aren't that dense, dude lol. The Xbox One can use both pools of memory simultaneously. The way some people talk about the Xbox One, you would swear all of Microsoft and AMD's engineers just finished the first grade after 5 tries, and then decided they would build a game console for fun.

 

[badcrumble]

The differences for third party games will be minimal. But that's due more to the politics of ensuring parity for the consumers.

That didn't really happen with the PS3/360 situation. Why would it happen here?

 

[DieH@rd]

Even Cerny added those numbers...

That's the description of the two possible architectures of PS4 that Sony could produce. They opted not to go with 1 terabyte/sec architecture because developers asked for simplicity.

 

[coldfoot]

I don't know if the PS4 has counterparts for the 15 special purpose processors in the Xbox One. Maybe the audio chip is an advantage as well as the customized Jaguar CPUs.

Bunch of them are for Kinect, DME's, and HDMI overlay stuff, so the PS4 doesn't even need them. Also PS4 also has "customized" Jaguars with respect to memory sharing and hUMA, so it's a wash.

Audio block is the only thing but I doubt multiplatforms will use it due to the PS4 not having the same.

 

[IN&OUT]

I don't know if the PS4 has counterparts for the 15 special purpose processors in the Xbox One. Maybe the audio chip is an advantage as well as the customized Jaguar CPUs.

PS4 has a dedicated audio chip, it also has decoding and encoding hardware to free up resources + Sony made customization to the APU just like MS. So yeah apparently X1 has zero advantages whatsoever.

 

[shandy706]

Your comparison doesn't make any sense.

Haha, I was going to point out the 660 ti is more powerful (flops wise) than both the X1 and PS4.

 

[PopcornMegaphone]

The differences for third party games will be minimal. But that's due more to the politics of ensuring parity for the consumers.

I think first party titles will start to show pretty soon. The increase in GPU alone will do that.

I think you're most likely right about this. By without big 1:1 comparisons most consumers won't care.

Well, they most likely wouldn't care even if there were big 1:1 differences. So yeah.

DF wars says otherwise. every single hw advantage matters to the hardcore, then hardcore will spread the word to the masses affecting X1 sales. if internet was widespread in 2000, Xbox sales would have fared much better compared to PS2, but large number of people bought PS2 and simply didn't know that Xbox even existed, let alone more powerful.

I can't even tell if you're serious. I'm sorry.

 

[Piggus]

Canvwe estimate from those how much will it cost to build the Xbone?

It's hard to say without also analyzing the components of Kinect since it's a pretty advanced piece of tech. But at $500 I can't imagine they're losing money on every system.

 

[Proelite]

Xb1+PS3+X360 < PS4

Xb1: 1.31 TF
PS3: 250 gflops
X360: 230 gflops

PS4: 1.84 TF

FYI, if wikipedia is to be believed, the RSX is only 176 GFLOPS, compared to the 240 of the 360.

 

[ypo]

What he wants to say: It is more "difficult" than the PS4.

Yea it's one thing to be more difficult to develop but more powerful. The Xbone is less powerful and more difficult. Not a good combo.

 

[level_e11even]

Interesting. So the PS4 has hUMA does it. Please show me the slides or other official information that states that. Thanks.

Fair enough. I don't think it has been officially confirmed, but what I can tell you is that the PS4 APU customization (Garlic/Onion) fulfills the criteria for supporting hUMA. As for the Xbox One, the eSRAM pretty much guarantees the impossibility of hUMA.

 

[DJ Lushious]

if internet was widespread in 2000, Xbox sales would have fared much better compared to PS2

What crazy world did you live in where the internet wasn't widespread in 2000?

 

[Skeff]

Whats the deal with People saying Sony doesn't have dedicated audio chip?

http://www.gamechup.com/mark-cerny-ps4-contains-a-dedicated-audio-processing-chip/

ugh. Just because a company doesn't shove things down your throat doesn't mean they don't have it.