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[badcrumble]

To deal with that, Sell said Microsoft designed in redundancies into the chip where it could, so that if one section was inoperable, it doesn’t kill the whole chip. Nevertheless, it means that it won’t be easy to churn out millions of such chips.

Wow, this reminds me of how the PS3's Cell chips had 8 SPEs, but only 7 had to be working for the console to be shipped (and it only made use of 7, IIRC), so that they could increase the yields*.

Xbox One has *way* too much PS3 deja vu, goddamn.



*could someone verify/debunk that for me? It's been a while, but that's what I remember.

 

[LilZippa]

Supposedly that's only for 32mb worth of esRAM

No it is all posible bandwidths added together to make a big number.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

Their architecture seems to be too complex for its own good. They would have been better served trying to keep it simple.

 

[WeAreStarStuff]

Came into this thread, felt bad I did not understand the OP..felt worse when I realized I do not understand any of the DBZ references

damn I'm old

I'm 30 and I get the DBZ references. Actually, the older crowd will prob. be the ones that understand it.

Spoiler

I still find the million DBZ pics in every thread to be annoying.

 

[Osiris]

I don't believe MS is playing games with that ESRAM bandwidth. Whatever is going on, I don't think it's a simple combining of bandwidths. There's more about the ESRAM that likely has to be explained, because even if you combine every single pathway for bandwidth in the system, you still wouldn't get that number, or you would overshoot it by quite a bit, so there's something else going on, and the closest thing to an explanation that we have is the DF article about spare processing cycles and it being able to read and write simultaneously.

Riiiiight.

So it's a choice between terribad marketing math or "secret sauce" again.

I'll go with the first option, given their old method of combining bandwidth figures.

 

[SenjutsuSage]

I actually find it impressive how current Xbox One launch titles look as good as PS4 launch titles, despite the massive performance advantage the PS4 offers.

And the apparent greater ease of development on the PS4. PS4 games will continue to look better as time goes on, but that will also most certainly be true for Xbox One titles as well, unless of course we believe that somehow the PS4's performance advantage prevents the Xbox One from benefitting from greater time and knowledge of a closed box system over time as all consoles before it has benefitted.

Riiiiight.

So it's a choice between terribad marketing math or "secret sauce" again.

I'll go with the first option, given their old method of combining bandwidth figures.

Or the third option. You nor I, nor anyone else that isn't under NDA and has access to the level of knowledge of the console's inner workings that it would take to understand all there is to know about the system's ESRAM. And something else that just occurred to me. If it's truly split into 4 blocks of 8MB as displayed in that diagram, then that's pretty interesting as far as latency is concerned.

 

[VibratingDonkey]

Sounds good. Hot chips, mmmmm....

 

[Suikoguy]

And the apparent greater ease of development on the PS4. PS4 games will continue to look better as time goes on, but that will also most certainly be true for Xbox One titles as well, unless of course we believe that somehow the PS4's performance advantage prevents the Xbox One from benefitting from greater time and knowledge of a closed box system over time as all consoles before it has benefitted.

How can you not have a tag yet with posts like this?

 

[Klocker]

Is it really as bad as that. Did MS gimp the Xbox One that badly?

I think MS is counting on these machines being CPU bound before the GPU gets beaten to death.

In addition, their memory subsystem design and freeing up of CPU cycles by having powerful audio chip will offset some of what PS4 will do with GPGPU work. In the end when Devs make games they will be closer than "40%" for several years to come.

Wow, this reminds me of how the PS3's Cell chips had 8 SPEs, but only 7 had to be working for the console to be shipped (and it only made use of 7, IIRC), so that they could increase the yields*.

Xbox One has *way* too much PS3 deja vu, goddamn.



*could someone verify/debunk that for me? It's been a while, but that's what I remember.

that's how most chips are designed/fabbed

 

[hydrophilic attack]

I actually find it impressive how current Xbox One launch titles look as good as PS4 launch titles, despite the massive performance advantage the PS4 offers.

How can you say this with any certainty? Have we actually seen multiplat games run on both consoles (or on consoles at all)? It will be interesting to compare performance of games like Watch Dogs come launch.

 

[Spongebob]

I actually find it impressive how current Xbox One launch titles look as good as PS4 launch titles, despite the massive performance advantage the PS4 offers.

They both look good, but PS4 launch titles and launch window titles have a very noticeable edge over Xbone titles.

 

[phosphor112]

I think MS is counting on these machines being CPU bound before the GPU gets beaten to death also that the memory subsystem and freeing up of CPU cycles by having powerful audio chip will offset some of what PS4 will do with GPGPU work so in the end when Devs make games they will be closer than "40%" for years to come

Punctuation is whiling to be your friend if you want...

 

[DieH@rd]

Xbox One specs from Hot Chips session (8GB Flash, 1.31TFlops, 204GB/s peak BW)

Le sigh, they are still forcing this combined bandwidth of several memory pathways.

 

[Bundy]

So are these confirmed now?

PS4: 1152 Shaders
Xbone: 768 Shaders


PS4: 72 Texture units
Xbone: 48 Texture units


PS4: 32 ROPS
Xbone: 16 ROPS

Yep!
Simple as that!

Le sigh, they are still forcing this combined bandwidth of several memory pathways.

Yeah, "the power of the cloud" is still missing :/
They should really stop that.

 

[Skerj]

in Trailer Park Boys terms,

PS4: Julian
Xbox One: Ricky
WiiU: Bubbles

PC: Jim Lahey

I fucking approve of this post, that infinite PC liquor power.

 

[Klocker]

Punctuation is whiling to be your friend if you want...

sorry, we never really got a long but I'll try again.

 

[Nachtmaer]

Wow, this reminds me of how the PS3's Cell chips had 8 SPEs, but only 7 had to be working for the console to be shipped (and it only made use of 7, IIRC), so that they could increase the yields*.

Xbox One has *way* too much PS3 deja vu, goddamn.



*could someone verify/debunk that for me? It's been a while, but that's what I remember.

Most, if not all, big chips always have some sort of redundancy built in. It doesn't necessarily mean you use salvaged chips where cores/groups of cores are disabled.

 

[Metfanant]

How can you say this with any certainty? Have we actually seen multiplat games run on both consoles (or on consoles at all)? It will be interesting to compare performance of games like Watch Dogs come launch.

no we have not...the closest thing we have to any kind of confirmation of multiplat performance is the NFS dev (i believe) tweeting that one of the console versions looks better than the other...that was then retweeted by Shu....

 

[RoboPlato]

Le sigh, they are still forcing this combined bandwidth of several memory pathways.

The fact that they tried to pull that shit at a Hot Chips conference is astounding. That isn't the crowd that will be fooled by that.

 

[KoopaTheCasual]

So are these confirmed now?

PS4: 1152 Shaders
Xbone: 768 Shaders


PS4: 72 Texture units
Xbone: 48 Texture units


PS4: 32 ROPS
Xbone: 16 ROPS

I wonder how long it will take for the power gap to begin to manifest itself in multiplats across the board?

I guess I'm too old for this shit... Have no clue what the hell they are talking about.

Considering how Dragon Ball is 30 years old.... no I don't think you're "too old for this shit". You just don't know much about it.

 

[SenjutsuSage]

How can you not have a tag yet with posts like this?

I've been asking for a tag that labels me the lowest latency poster on GAF for awhile now

Also, you implying that developers somehow won't get markedly improved results compared to launch or first gen games from the Xbox One hardware over time?

 

[velociraptor]

How can you say this with any certainty? Have we actually seen multiplat games run on both consoles (or on consoles at all)? It will be interesting to compare performance of games like Watch Dogs come launch.

I cannot comment on multiplatform titles for obvious reasons, but Ryse looks superb, and Forza 5 is probably the best looking racer out there (1080p60).

I expect the PS4 to pull ahead in the upcoming year. On paper, the PS4 destroys the XBO. It's analogous to the OG Xbox vs the PS2.

 

[googleplex]

So are these confirmed now?

PS4: 1152 Shaders
Xbone: 768 Shaders


PS4: 72 Texture units
Xbone: 48 Texture units


PS4: 32 ROPS
Xbone: 16 ROPS

That's not even taking into account the difference in Ram bandwidth, and the amount of Ram allocated to games. The power difference between the PS4 and Xbone are much bigger then people seem to think. Like PS2/Xbox big.

 

[Osiris]

Le sigh, they are still forcing this combined bandwidth of several memory pathways.

Technology-wise they have the weaker box, and they have no way around that.

So what choice other than deception and lies do they have really?

I guess they could always go the Dudley Moore / Volvo school of marketing and tell the truth though, that would be amusing

 

[BleachAndPepsi]

PS4 = PUTIN
Xbone = Merker
Wiiu = Obama

WiiU's not that awesome.

 

[coldfoot]

I think MS is counting on these machines being CPU bound before the GPU gets beaten to death.

Wrong, you're pretty much always bound by GPU power, as seen from sub-1080p games.

In addition, their memory subsystem design and freeing up of CPU cycles by having powerful audio chip will offset some of what PS4 will do with GPGPU work. In the end when Devs make games they will be closer than "40%" for several years to come.

Realistically, only MS exclusives will use that audio block.

 

[Winterfang]

They both look good, but PS4 launch titles and launch window titles have a very noticeable edge over Xbone titles.

Do they? Killzone and Battlefield 4 look pretty close to me. Drive Club and Forza both look Next Gen and everything else is either multiplat or not a game focus on Graphics.

 

[badb0y]

The only new information I got out of this was the 8GB Flash....Did they mention what they will use it for? It looks like a similar setup to those hybrid drives that Seagate sells.

Do they? Killzone and Battlefield 4 look pretty close to me. Drive Club and Forma both look Next Gen and everything else is either multiplat or not a game focus on Graphics.

You haven't seen BF4 running on the Xbox One yet....It's been running on PCs this whole time.

 

[Ricky_R]

 

[hydrophilic attack]

How can you not have a tag yet with posts like this?

He had a tag for a while.

Spoiler

It read banned

I think MS is counting on these machines being CPU bound before the GPU gets beaten to death also that the memory subsystem and freeing up of CPU cycles by having powerful audio chip will offset some of what PS4 will do with GPGPU work so in the end when Devs make games they will be closer than "40%" for years to come

We don't know yet how PS4's audio chip compares to XBO's so you can't say that with any certainty. But even if XBO's chip is more capable, which it may well be, you have to take into account that a lot of that power will be needed for Kinect to function. If the XBO still has more power in the audio chip after that, devs won't make up for that by having the CPU do more audio stuff on PS4. They will simply have slightly less impressive audio on the PS4 version, which 95 % of users won't notice, just like the 360 did this generation.

But I guess in that scenario XBO would still be the system to get for extreme audiophiles.

Oh, and when you mention memory subsystem like that, are you implying that XBO's memory system is superior to PS4's?

 

[Sub_Level]

Isn't SSJ Vegeta > SSJ Goku? yet GC > PS2

They're pretty close. Vegeta was able to defeat Android 19 so easily because

1) He had no disease

and

2) He didn't use energy attacks

Replace "disease" with bad sales, and "use energy attacks" with refuse to roll with the DVD format.

 

[Gestault]

The fact that they tried to pull that shit at a Hot Chips conference is astounding. That isn't the crowd that will be fooled by that.

If the separate CPU/GPU elements can simultaneously read and write to the RAM, why wouldn't that be so? That seemed like it was half of the advantage to the coherent/unified memory structure in both platforms.

Have we heard criticism from anyone attending Hot Chips that this isn't the case, or do people here not like the sound of it and assume that'll be the case?

 

[SEGAvangelist]

WiiU's not that awesome.

Depends on what you think Obama is awesome at.

 

[BleachAndPepsi]

Do they? Killzone and Battlefield 4 look pretty close to me. Drive Club and Forma both look Next Gen and everything else is either multiplat or not a game focus on Graphics.

We've seen the PS4 and Xbone versions of Battlefield 4 side by side? Where?

Depends on what you think Obama is awesome at.

Good point.

 

[Derekloffin]

So, wait, is the 204 figure the combination of all bandwidths on the system, or just the eSRAM's bandwidth?

 

[newsguy]

I love GAF. Sometimes you'll enter one of these threads and it reads like Stephen Hawkings decided to impart his wisdom upon us. Other times no one knows wtf is going on and we get this thread. Is it the time things are posted? Weird.

 

[RSTEIN]

I suspect that very much like the PS3, the problem will be that leveraging the benefits of the architecture will be more trouble than its worth for multi-platform projects.

Before:
MS: Let's make system that's really easy to develop for and sell it for less than Sony's PS3!
Sony: Let's make a system with crazy architecture that's really hard to develop for and sell it for more than the 360!
Nintendo: lulz losers

Now:
MS: Let's make a system with crazy architecture that's really hard to develop for and sell it for more than the PS4!
Sony: Let's make system that's really easy to develop for and sell it for less than the Xbox One!
Nintendo: *shoots self*

 

[Proelite]

That's not even taking into account the difference in Ram bandwidth, and the amount of Ram allocated to games. The power difference between the PS4 and Xbone are much bigger then people seem to think. Like PS2/Xbox big.

I don't think this was true. Xbox was several times more powerful in terms of raw flops that the ps2 and the gpu was generations more advanced.

 

[coldfoot]

So, wait, is the 204 figure the combination of all bandwidths on the system, or just the eSRAM's bandwidth?

ESRAM peak theoretical bandwidth that is only achievable by writing code with a specific memory read/write pattern that is not typical of real world workloads.

 

[Shaunboy97]

Someone re-post the OP so a 5 year old can understand it.

UPVOTE

 

[Hana-Bi]

If the separate CPU/GPU elements can simultaneously read and write to the RAM, why wouldn't that be so? That seemed like it was half of the advantage to the coherent/unified memory structure in both platforms.

Have we heard criticism from anyone attending Hot Chips that this isn't the case, or do people here not like the sound of it and assume that'll be the case?

Even Cerny added those numbers...

 

[Caayn]

Bitches think PC is Buu.

Bitch please. Whis, would like to have a conversation with you.

 

[Bundy]

Before:
MS: Let's make system that's really easy to develop for and sell it for less than Sony's PS3!
Sony: Let's make a system with crazy architecture that's really hard to develop for and sell it for more than the 360!
Nintendo: lulz losers

Now:
MS: Let's make a system with crazy architecture that's really hard to develop for and sell it for more than the PS4!
Sony: Let's make system that's really easy to develop for and sell it for less than the Xbox One!!
Nintendo: *shoots self*

Fascinating, isn't it ^_^

 

[googleplex]

So, wait, is the 204 figure the combination of all bandwidths on the system, or just the eSRAM's bandwidth?

The the combined figure of different bandwidths added up. And it's bullshit because bandwidth doesn't work that way.

 

[DC1]

PS4 = PUTIN
Xbone = Merker
Wiiu = Obama

First I was like... Then I was like :/

 

[NerdEyeBlind]

Alright, so here's what I understand so far:

Spoiler

Just like Ryan Reynolds filmography

 

[Chumpion]

The audio processors - tinnitus confirmed! You can run a metric shitload of audio FX with 15 GFLOPS.

 

[TheTwelve]

these DBZ comparison posts were funny the first 100 post, its getting really annoying now. what makes it worst is I didn't watch the show so I have no idea what they represent :/

Ummm....

PS4 = Kenshin
Xbone = Sano
WiiU = Yahiko

 

[EvB]

Is guess that 8GB of ram was to act as a cache for games, bearing in mind thej originally had to be entirely on the HDD this means they lost the ability to read from multiple storage devices simultaneously.

 

[PopcornMegaphone]

I don't think this was true. Xbox was several times more powerful in terms of raw flops that the ps2 and the gpu was generations more advanced.

And even then most consumers didn't care.

The only people who will care about the minor PS4 vs XB1 with games will be console warriors on message boards. If performance is is really that important to them they should buy PCs.

That said, I wish the XB1 was more powerful. It would increase the baseline for game development.