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Beyond: Two Souls - Review Thread

yami4ct

Member
how does good writing get you 10/10 9/10 GAMEPLAY scores all over the place???

reviews are mostly into parts
story
gameplay
sound
etc etc etc

all these fucktard reviewers gave TWD top scores in the gameplay department not just "story"

the actual gameplay (what little of it there is) is ABYSMAL


I don't see many reviews that split scores by category. Even ignoring that scores are kind of bunk in general, this is just extra dumb. Sometimes one aspect of the game is so good, it makes up for the lack in the other. Split scores just ignore that fact.
 

Riposte

Member
and people wonder why, in the triple a space, there are only games like titanfall.

Blind and confused people, maybe. And likely a bit depressed, yet full of themselves. Who are you speaking for?

Even if this hilariously untrue scenario had any merit, I would still prefer a world with Titanfalls than one with Titanfalls and sloppy bastardizatons, at least for the long-term once the novelty wears off. A bunch of Titanfalls can differentiate and compete with each other in interesting ways, yet a game that dives into the abyss (be purposefully counter to progress) can never be as good as even an average game. Moreover, we run the risk of people putting the crap found at the bottom of that abyss above what is currently understood as good. In other words, I care not about your appeal to my potential latent hipsterdom.

See, good unique games are good, but that is where the story ends. The fact you are considering all videogames outside the weirdness of David Cage as a singular "Titanfall" tells me exactly I what I need to know about you wanting "uniqueness". It just so happens only games that makes people feel like passive participants (in other words: game which completely reverse the values of videogames) qualify as "unique". I don't see that as foiled "innovation"; that's the prevention of degradation, if not retrogression. "Safeness" isn't something to be afraid of, when you are keeping games safe from being boring.

Maybe you disagree. Okay, that's fair. But allow me to laugh at your unearned sense of superiority.

For the record I think every review written by Jim Sterling is a waste of time and even if he agrees with me, I'll still treat his material like trash. He is very good at complaining out loud about things "the people" want to complain about, but I don't think he should write videogame reviews.
 

Derrick01

Banned
yet without trying, there is no doing. "complete bust"? you are in no position to judge.

No one's stopping him from trying but when he spews his crap writing into games and gets called out for it you can't cry that they're being unfair. If there's any unfairness going on it's how inconsistent reviewers are with their criticism of all games, but you don't solve that problem by not correctly reviewing this game too. You solve it by starting to review everything correctly.
 
Almost no gameplay? That's good, because I suck at games and canceled my cable TV.
Seriously, I must have replayed some Rayman Origins levels 500 times to get the red chest, and I can't hack Dark Souls. But damn do I love games anyway. So maybe this game is right up my alley.
 

The Lamp

Member
Yeeesh. I had this pre-ordered but I don't know anymore. I loved HR but the review scores are a mess even compared to that. I'll have to do more research before I decide to buy.
 

Dazzler

Member
Almost no gameplay? That's good, because I suck at games and canceled my cable TV.
Seriously, I must have replayed some Rayman Origins levels 500 times to get the red chest, and I can't hack Dark Souls. But damn do I love games anyway. So maybe this game is right up my alley.

fuck those red chest levels

eugh
 
This game is definitely better than Heavy Rain right now, story-wise and gameplay wise. There are some seriously fantastic chapters in here.
 
Story heavy "non-games" (hate the term) are welcome if the writing is decent.

Nevertheless, I felt TWD was a bit formulaic, the most attachment one cam make with something inside the world of the game are personal achievements. So there should be at least some effort from one's part if they expect us to feel something.
 
Oh geez, this reminds me... Does anyone have a link to the "naughty bits" from the EU version that were censored for us prude Americans??
 

Silky

Banned
how does good writing get you 10/10 9/10 GAMEPLAY scores all over the place???

reviews are mostly into parts
story
gameplay
sound
etc etc etc

all these fucktard reviewers gave TWD top scores in the gameplay department not just "story"

the actual gameplay (what little of it there is) is ABYSMAL

...

It's an adventure game.
 
Gamespot 9
Game informer 7.8
Ign 6

Damn who to believe, I always look at gamespot as the most strict since hey nitpick the most

I would love to know how many of these B2S reviewers reviews heavy rain, because the same person should have done it. Ign complains about controls yet the controls are almost the same as heavy rain with few improvements

Anyway I am getting it to see for myself.

Also thank you Sony for showing confidence in David cage, I still believe this game will sell 2 plus million
 
1) those games are not in the triple a space, and have obviously lower production values. say what anyone will, but production value helps.

2) most good point-and-click games are from 20 years ago.

3) most indie p&c games do not sell as much, do not get exposed as much, do not get played by as much people.


beyond is a big push to p&c genre. if a game like this can thrive, then games like walking dead (which is not even triple a) can get greenlit. the games in the triple a space are so focus-tested it is not even funny.

Production value can help, if the result works toward creating a complete package..

TWD wasn't hurt by it's aping the look of the comics, likewise To the Moon gets a lot of leeway due to its Chrono Trigger/Harvest Moon SNES looks.

Both use their production effectively to compensate for the flaws in their writing.

I liked TWD, but I didn't appreciate the fact that, for a game that placed as much emphasis on choice as it did, it didn't matter squat in the end. You could see a formula develop as a result, and that just eradicated any tension the game could've had if there wasn't such a masquerade going on. 'SAVE THIS PERSON or SAVE THIS OTHER PERSON' just became 'THIS PERSON CAN DIE NOW OR THEY CAN DIE AN HOUR LATER or 'THIS OTHER PERSON CAN DIE NOW OR THEY CAN DIE AN HOUR LATER'! Oh yeah, that's a real moral quandary right there.

Heavy Rain created an illusion of choice at many points too of course, but at least there were still plenty of choices that mattered, and it had more than one fucking ending!

I actually liked this having only intended to play through the story once. Unless you're determined to look behind the curtain having all your decisions ultimately be meaningless against the tragic march of fate added to the overall atmosphere of the game.
 

AlphaK

Member
Yeeesh. I had this pre-ordered but I don't know anymore. I loved HR but the review scores are a mess even compared to that. I'll have to do more research before I decide to buy.

If everything you've seen of this game prior to the reviews led you to pre-order the game, then i suggest you just trust your instincts. Especially if you played the demo and liked/loved it.

This type of game was always going to get a wide range of reviews.
 

Dio

Banned
Oh geez, this reminds me... Does anyone have a link to the "naughty bits" from the EU version that were censored for us prude Americans??
Are you talking about the part where Ellen Page gives a hobo a blowjob? At least, I remember hearing a lot about that.
 
This is the question I had today after reading the critical reaction to Beyond: Two Souls. I grew up playing games from Konami, Capcom and the like, so I’m still getting the hang of associating a game with a person’s name. I do well with a few: Hideo Kojima, Phil Fish, Cliffy B, etc. As video games continue to become a bigger part of pop culture, I will continue to add names to the list. David Cage is the latest addition.

I became very curious about David Cage due to the self-congratulatory venom spewed by his critics. Ian Miles Cheong, the editor in chief of Gameranx, unloaded puns like this about David Cage’s failure with Beyond: Two Souls. I had never seen so many puns about one developer, so these tweets aroused my interest about David Cage. I then read Jim Sterling’s review of Beyond: Two Souls and found these two lines fascinating in their smugness: “I’ve believed for years that Cage, while an undoubtedly talented man, is simply not a strong enough creator to be an unchallenged writer and director. If Beyond: Two Souls does anything right, it’s prove that belief.” It seems Cage’s supposed failure makes Sterling a more knowledgeable critic.

I began to seek out quotes from David Cage. Surely this son of a bitch said something really controversial, I thought. Perhaps Cage was kind of like Phil Fish or Cliffy B, guys who say whatever is on their mind without caring about what others might think.

If you’re looking for another Fish in Cage, you’re out of luck. I find that Cage mainly talks about the potential of video games to trigger different emotions. I think the following quote, which prompted this article from Sterling, is the most controversial thing I could find from the mouth of Cage:

This industry will die if it doesn’t try more to be innovative and to come up with new ideas and to talk a bit more — not necessarily serious, but deeper things at some point. It’s great that you can shoot at monsters, and that’s great and it will always be there and it will always be successful, but at the same time, what about giving the choice to people? Give them different options. So if they like that they find it, but if they want something deeper and interactive, they can find that too.
Cage contradicts himself when he says the industry “will die” before pointing out that shooters “will always be successful.” Other than that, I don’t have a problem with this quote, and I don’t have a problem with Cage attempting to give people “different options” with games like Heavy Rain and Beyond: Two Souls. I say this despite the fact that I have zero interest in playing his games.

Human culture at large doesn’t care about David Cage enough to criticize him. Most gamers don’t care enough about Cage to criticize him. And I didn’t even know the poor bastard’s name until I saw the critics’ bile. Why do some game journalists insist on publicizing the name of someone they don’t seem to like or respect? I’m afraid the answer is beyond me.



http://www.fateofthegame.com/who-the-hell-is-david-cage/
 

Bebpo

Banned
Hmmm, I really liked Heavy Rain. But that was mainly because I liked the sense of tension (your character can actually die! And it changes the story!) and mystery (murder mysteries are always fun) it had along with all the player choices to affect how the story played out.

It sounds like Beyond is lacking all of those things. I have a feeling this is not going to be a game for me :(
 

Riposte

Member
I actually liked this having only intended to play through the story once. Unless you're determined to look behind the curtain having all your decisions ultimately be meaningless against the tragic march of fate added to the overall atmosphere of the game.

You didn't have to look "behind the curtain" to see how pointless choices were in TWD. Differences being made matter, because it is hard to fake the player having an effect on the game's narrative, especially when they are not new to role-playing and knows all the tricks. TWD plot is like pushing buttons, but the game not registering them. It is a lack of real feedback, which is a killer.
 

Himself

Member
Nice. Love me some divisive review scores. I know what I'm getting myself into when I fire up a Quantic Dream game. Definitely grabbing my steelbook today.
 
I've played and have pretty much enjoyed every QD game since Omnikron, while at the same time realizing that they have had certain and somewhat not insignificant faults from Indigo Prophecy's out of left field ending to Heavy Rain's horrible voice acting, plot holes and red herrings. That said I still think I might give B2S a shot once I've read some more impressions.

I'll tell you what though, if you read that NYT review and the semi-spoilerish descriptions of some of the places where you go and what you do in the game, it does sound absolutely unintentionally hilarious. Like just from the description it sounds like it would probably make for one of the worst movies ever made.

That said, as much as Cage wants to make games more "filmic," they are still video games. For me it's the interactive nature that makes even the shittiest of video game narratives interesting for some reason. And I honestly wouldn't mind more "interactive fiction" like Gone Home or the Walking Dead.

I just think Cage is way too overambitious. I think we'd be better served by QD if Cage - instead of trying to write some 8-10 hour interactive epic that ultimately falls on its face under the weight of its scale, loose ends, bloat and weirdness - focused all his efforts on making his next game no longer than two to four hours, charge $15-$20 for it, hire an actual script writer and try to make it the best interactive movie to date.
 

jordisok

Member
Did you read the reviews? And Heavy Rain came out when games were averaging an 85. I don't necessarily consider that a good score. An 85 now is a lot stronger than an 85 then. Regardless, its not about the scores its about some of the criticism leveled at the game for being what it is.

Let me put it this way. If you say that it is an emotionally resonant thrill ride and state that a game has never given you such feelings, you shouldn't then turn around and be like, "But it is a bad game." So on so forth. It just reeks of desperation on the reviewers part on trying to maintain their idea of what a game is.

This post explains your position a lot better than the one I quoted before. I can't say I've read many reviews, just seemed you were being a bit tinfoil hat.

To play devil's advocate; perhaps the emotional resonance isn't enough for the reviewer, regardless of whether games invoke it often in them or not and they still took into account technical features, etc. Really this just gets to the root of the problem with review scores.
 
No one's stopping him from trying but when he spews his crap writing into games and gets called out for it you can't cry that they're being unfair. If there's any unfairness going on it's how inconsistent reviewers are with their criticism of all games, but you don't solve that problem by not correctly reviewing this game too. You solve it by starting to review everything correctly.

a lot of the reviewers plainly hate cage no matter what. cage did not get called out, seeing that the reviews are mixed. some like it, some don't. people who did not like it are not the "white knights" for "calling out" cage. worse, the same people have been making childish remarks on twitter before the embargo was lifted. "the mechanics are quite bad" is a valid opinion, "only seven emotions per game" is childish.

you are asking for the impossible. review everything correctly? that is not going to happen. if anything, that should be a rule, not a solution.

your point that this game has been reviewed correctly (but other games have not), is just plain laughable. do not expect anytime soon that gta6, no matter its pop-ins, will be "called out" in its graphics the same way sterling unfairly did for beyond's.
 
...

It's an adventure game.

So was Ghost Trick and that managed to introduce fresh and enjoyable gameplay compared to the typical "find items needed, combine items, use item on puzzle" gameplay that adventure games have been clinging to for decades.

I was pretty disappointed early on in TWD when I found out it had those kinds of gameplay elements in it, however basic they may be. Find remote, need batteries, search around to find batteries, use batteries on remote, use remote to solve puzzle.
 

MMaRsu

Banned
But you could say the same thing for most games out today. Take for example most linear games such as Uncharted (3 has similar horse chase) and Tomb Raider. Do they really give you that much freedom to roam around in the environments that hasn't been designated by the programmer as in that scene show?

I agree with what you are saying but there wasn't enough player input in Beyond imo. Not enough choices, and not a lot of actual 'gameplay'. I really liked the game by the way.

I'd give it a 9/10.
 

Riposte

Member
So was Ghost Trick and that managed to introduce fresh and enjoyable gameplay compared to the typical "find items needed, combine items, use item on puzzle" gameplay that adventure games have been clinging to for decades.

I was pretty disappointed early on in TWD when I found out it had those kinds of gameplay elements in it, however basic they may be. Find remote, need batteries, search around to find batteries, use batteries on remote, use remote to solve puzzle.

I would say Ghost Trick is more of a puzzle game. It has a specific type of puzzles you do with some central mechanics.

A better example of well-received adventure games, at least on GAF, would probably be the Zero Escape series.

EDIT: Likely, Cage gets named in the criticisms of his games because he's chosen to embody his design philosophies with his personal comments and such. Having built up that character, it is very easy to see "him" in the games and thus that's something that is going to be attacked along the way when you ask yourself "why is this game bad, though?"
 

dreamfall

Member
I love Cage's games.

The writing is always atrocious, but there are some really genius moments that define the games for me. I like getting emotional vignettes, and the mundane interactions. But even if you swear by QD (and I do really enjoy their material), you've got to know you're going into a real shitshow as far as plot development, narrative dissonance, and poor character evolution.

There are scenes in Fahrenheit and Heavy Rain that I consider some of the best moments of gaming I've played period. But with those scenes, come the bitter lacking stories and strange styles of trying to describe the characters.
 
Huh, for all the talk of 'divisive' reviews, it seems that the vast majority of reviews so far have been positive.

Guess not so 'mixed' after all.

I hope you read it, and didn't just look at the score.

It's an extremely well written and fair review.

Of course he didn't read it. Check that post history, he was never going to touch this game.
 

elhav

Member
Well lots of people said Heavy rain was terrible at the time, but I thought it was a great experience. If Beyond is anything like it, I don't need reviewers to tell me if it's good or not.
 
Calling these reviews "mixed" is being generous. I haven't even heard of most of the sites giving it decent reviews. The sites I generally trust for reviews and commentary are all negative on this game.

Lol, there are some known sites on there. I take it you are not interested in this game, and this is your way of bashing it without playing it? Quite clever and well played.


Well lots of people said Heavy rain was terrible at the time, but I thought it was a great experience. If Beyond is anything like it, I don't need reviewers to tell me if it's good or not.



Honestly, this is exactly how I feel about this game. I really thought it would average about a 6 or 7 out of 10 because it is very unique and not for everyone.
 
I actually liked this having only intended to play through the story once. Unless you're determined to look behind the curtain having all your decisions ultimately be meaningless against the tragic march of fate added to the overall atmosphere of the game.

There was no looking behind the curtain for me. I only had to play through the game once to realise there was no real choice. Like I said, you notice a formula happening, and I put two and two together halfway through Episode 3. When the choices have no weight then the tension and emotional investment is lessened considerably.
 
Haters: Would you rather have David Cage making games, or Uwe Boll making movies?

David is French... so he is avant garde and artsy and I thought his games would therefore appeal more to French gamers. But the two horrible French reviews I see proves I am completely wrong... or maybe there is such a French subculture and I am being too stereotypical. Hmm...
 

badyu17

Member
TBH I am not surprised with the reviews, I expected it just like this. I'm still going to buy it and play it but just want to comment on something.

Cage needs to learn there is a reason why good, successful movies are good and successful. Because there's this little thing called collaboration. When I watch some documentary or behind the scenes video about a classic movie I often see that one person can't ever be solely responsibly for everything.

For example it always starts with someone having a general idea, than some writer writes a script on that idea. The producer wants to produce it and says hey it's a good idea but the script could be better and he hires another writer to re-write first script. Than director likes the whole concept and wants to direct it and he hires his trusty production designer and composer who both collaborate with the director to create sets and music that suits his artistic vision. Director also suggests new ideas to complement the story but he doesn't write the screenplay because that's not his job, he is not good at writing so he hires another writer to do it. Third writer is doing what he is told but notices some aspects of the story could be better so he suggests them to the whole team. They all think about it and see that he has a point and change some aspects dramatically to better suit the story and the end result is better than what they had at the beginning.

How does this correlate to the Cage and Beyond:TS?

Well, Cage wants to be an "auteur" and he writes his 2000 pages game bible which contains everything as he said in his numerous interviews and he is also a game designer and he is also screenplay writer and production designer and music designer and Motion Capture director. Yes he has a composer but Cage is former musician and he specifically tells them what he wants instead of letting them to try and COLLABORATE by bringing something new to the table. Example: Spielberg is a Jaws director but he didn't write the Jaws music theme. John Williams did, without any input and made the movie much better with it.

So the point is Cage should stick with what he does best, which is giving general ideas but let the game designer design it, producer to produce it, writer to write it, level designer to create levels and yes even director to direct actors in motion captures. If everyone does what is their job they can all influence each other much better for the whole project. It doesn't have to be 100% same what he had in mind at the beginning of the project. He can still oversee everything but not DO everything by himself.

He should look at how Naught Dog create their games. They iterate and try different stuff and are not afraid to cut something that sucks and change it. It's a studio where many people collaborate and influence each other. The Last of Us is a Naughty Dog game, not a game from one person from Naughty dog. That's the difference, Heavy Rain, Fahrenheit and Beyond are more David Cage games than Quantic Dream games. I have a felling those 150+ QD employees are more factory workers hired to do what he tells them to do than to be his collaborators.

When he realizes this and steps down from being the one and only cog in Quantic Dream game creation process, his games are going to be less flawed and more wonderful. His ideas are generally very nice.
 

Zia

Member
Beyond: Two Souls is one of the most poignant and enthralling stories we have encountered in a video game, capable of stirring up the same depth of emotion as great works from the mediums of film and literature I've heard so much about.
 
Yikes. This was one of my more anticipated games this year. I'm still probably going to pick up my preorder in about an hour or so.

This thread though... what the hell?
 

AngryMoth

Member
I really want to play this even if it isn't good because I'm really interested in this style of game and want to talk about it, but I will probably wait for a price drop after reading some of these reviews.

Complaints about the writing don't surprise me given the quality of narrative in heavy rain but it sounds like an improvement at least which is good.

I always roll my eyes at people complaining about the lack of 'game' because it's completely missing the point, the real appeal of this genre is making choices. So I am very disappointed to read IGN say that the choices feel small compared to Heavy Rain, that is the thing that's putting me off more than anything. Also I have always suspected the decision to go with a single charcter would lead to lack of tension since they can't die until the end, and it sounds like this is the case unfortunately.

I so want these guys to be successful because I really believe in the potential of 'interactive drama' or whatever you want to call it so I am sad that it sounds like they have missed the mark again. Nevertheless I look forward to playing Beyond eventually.
 

mrklaw

MrArseFace
Idk why you'd want to make an interactive movie to begin with.
It has to be 10 hours long or more (or cost 10 euros like a movie ticket, but that is apparently out of the question for hollywood's even greedier cousin) which means the story pacing will be terrible, no way around that.

+ the more you try to salvage the pacing the less interactive the game will become and the less of a game it will be.

Games should focus on building worlds (and filling that interesting world with awesome gameplay), not telling character's stories.

as much as I enjoy a good open world game, it'd be a dull old place if every game was like that. I like my carefully crafted, relatively linear, story-driven experiences just as much as my 'go anywhere, do anything' games.

Walking Dead, VLR, 999, Corpse Party, Professor layton - all are basically story driven games with a few sprinkles of interactivity on top to help you accep them as 'games'. Yet all are great fun - isn't that what counts?
 

FStop7

Banned
Only Ricky Henderson can do that.

Captain%20America%20understood%20that%20reference.gif


On topic, the reviews are more divided than I figured they'd be. I was expecting another Heavy Rain, which I liked, in spite of its warts. I think I'm going to hold off on Beyond until the price drops a bit.
 
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