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[Granjinha]

lol @ people defending Dilma and PT.

I just hope Lula goes to jail soon. Wishful thinking, but it has to happen.

PMDB and PSDB don't have ideology at all, not even a plan for Brazil, nothing. If anything, we have REDE, and they have zero chances to attain power in the short term.

Dilma's government was awful, but the alternatives we have are not good at all. I agree that a change in power is good, but I'm not looking forward to our future considering our options.

PSDB and PMDB are not good alternatives, but they are better then what we have now.

What distorted social agenda?

And no, a change in ideology is not a victory. That depends entirely on the replacement.
Heck, there will be no real change in ideology as long as no party can run this coutnry without pmdb's backing.

Huh, i have countless examples, but from the top of my head, our dear ex-president (Lula) saying that the problem with Venezuela is that there is too much democracy there.

That's pretty alarming in a social context.

 

[The Artisan]

They should legalize, like their neighbors, Uruguay.

 

[Syntsui]

lol at people comparing the economic situation of today with Sarney's era. Go read a book for fuck's sake.

PSDB and PMDB are not good alternatives, but they are better then what we have now.

In the sense of recovering the governability, yes. In the sense of actually having a plan to develop our country, be it economically/socially/structurally, no, they are not better at all.

 

[Granjinha]

lol at people comparing the economic situation of today with Sarney's era. Go read a book for fuck's sake.

Yeah, the 'go read a book' thing is pretty much worn out. You didn't respond to any of the data showing our fucked up economic situation. I think the one that should be reading books isn't any of us.

Next you're gonna say that Dilma fought for freedom during the military dictatorship.

 

[Siegfried]

Brazilian here. This woman can go to hell! She and Lula, they ruined the entire country in the last decade!!! Hope they all end up in jail and rot there!

 

[Syntsui]

Yeah, the 'go read a book' thing is pretty much worn out. You didn't respond to any of the data showing our fucked up economic situation. I think the one that should be reading books isn't any of us.

Next you're gonna say that Dilma fought for freedom during the military dictatorship.

http://economia.estadao.com.br/noti...um-problema-que-nao-pode-ser-esquecido,83215e

If you are too lazy too actually study our country's political history, at least read this old simple article. Comparing our situation with Sarney's era is straight up bullshit.

Watch this video too so you can put some perspective in your head:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MULFvukDlGY

 

[Platy]

As always, here is a link to BrazilGAF Official Thread for those new faces.


I find hilarious that people complain a lot about Dilma and ONLY about her.

She praticaly always ruled with the congress and senate against her, specialy on this term.
Against her in the meaning of Cunha saying for who wants to listen that he will only let anything to change the ecconomy if she acept his crazy requests.

Cunha, that lets remember from the OP, has LOTS of criminal stuff in his name, including millions in money in switzerland.

Brazilian here. This woman can go to hell! She and Lula, they ruined the entire country in the last decade!!! Hope they all end up in jail and rot there!

Being a shit president does not make you a criminal or even rules for an impeachment.

 

[JJD]

She won't be impeached, being incompetent is not illegal. Whatever the Congress try to do, by not having anything illegal attached to her, the Supreme Court will hold it.

Those fiscal maneuvers were on the previous mandate and she can't be impeached for that. Also, EVERY SINGLE PRESIDENT since the democratization did fiscal maneuvers, this is a bullshit excuse for an impeachment.

Yup. Pretty much this.

Even bankers and big business have been saying on the press that the impeachment is the wrong way and that the crisis is more political than economic and urged the 3 biggest parties to resolve their issues.

 

[LuuKyK]

Both Dilma and Cunha could GTFO as far as I care.

With that in mind, I truly hope Dilma stays as the president, especially considering part of the reason people are against her is because she is a woman. Stay strong, Dilma.

Wow. You can't be serious. That would probably be the last reason I would mention why people are against her.

 

[CadetMahoney]

No no. You said it destroyed. Past tense. You will not move the goalposts.

you shall not pass.gif

 

[Slayven]

How are the right looking right now? During hard encomic times, the right start getting froggy.

 

[Syntsui]

How are the right looking right now? During hard encomic times, the right start getting froggy.

There is no right in Brazil, just anti-PT. No ''right-wing'' party has a defined ideology or even a plan for Brazil at the moment, they just want to exterminate PT and get to the power. Then maybe they will think about what they should do. PMDB is centrist and extremely fragmented, with hundreds of members with different thoughts. PSDB, which is the biggest opposition has no identity at all, so it's hard to qualify it as right-wing. The political logic in our country is kind of fucked up because the position of power has more importance than the ideals.


And to be fair, PT is not leftist at all, only in the speech.

 

[Ganzlinger]

How are the right looking right now? During hard encomic times, the right start getting froggy.

The right in Brazil is almost nonexistent as a party. But there is a very popular deputy called Jair Bolsonaro that represents the conservatives. He is like... Trump in a way that he is not ashamed to say fucked up things. But I really doubt he has any chance of being a president.

Most parties are left-wing, centre-left or just centre.

 

[Slayven]

There is no right in Brazil, just anti-PT. No ''right-wing'' party has a defined ideology or even a plan for Brazil at the moment, they just want to exterminate PT and get to the power. Then maybe they will think about what they should do. PMDB is centrist and extremely fragmented, with hundreds of members with different thoughts. PSDB, which is the biggest opposition has no identity at all, so it's hard to qualify it as right-wing. The political logic in our country is kind of fucked up because the position of power has more importance than the ideals.


And to be fair, PT is not leftist at all, only in the speech.

The right in Brazil is almost nonexistent as a party. But there is a very popular deputy called Jair Bolsonaro that represents the conservatives. He is like... Trump in a way that he is not ashamed to say fucked up things. But I really doubt he has any chance of being a president.

Most parties are left-wing, centre-left or just centre.

Thanks for the insight

 

[Tiops]

People complain about Dilma specifically in these situations because she is the president. The president is the biggest actor in politics, of course it will be the primary target. Of course most of us know that the problem is bigger than that, that there are a lot of corrupt people in the whole government, from all the parties and all that, but most part of how things are conducted around here is a result of the current government's actions.

How are the right looking right now? During hard encomic times, the right start getting froggy.

We don't have any strong right-wing party here. Only some right wing people in important positions (like senators and deputies) that have some attention. The closest we have here is the "evangelical caucus", which is a group of politicals from various parties that advocate for a religious conservadorism, being anti-LGBT, anti-abortion, etc.

I believe the most "relevant" person currently is Jair Bolsonaro, a federal deputy, and he's been gaining some influence between the young voters. He's more tied to the militar and has some extremist opinions against the left in general, and that gets some attention. People are asking to him to run for presidency in 2018, but I have no idea if he'll try. He won't have any chance, anyway.

 

[Afro Thunder]

Things here are gonna get bad real soon...

 

[Siegfried]

Being a shit president does not make you a criminal or even rules for an impeachment.

Do you really believed she's not involved with anything? That Lula never knew about the corruption and was never a part of it? While his son magically went from a low paying job at a zoo to a successful businessman by his merit alone while his father was president?


Signing the documents stating that the government accounts are OK while they are not is a felony by itself. Saying it isn't is the same as saying that the accountant from a company is not held responsible if something is wrong with the company declaration to the IRS.

 

[Shepard]

Things here are gonna get bad real soon...

Things have been bad for a while now.

 

[Syntsui]

Do you really believed she's not involved with anything? That Lula never knew about the corruption and was never a part of it? While his son magically went from a low paying job at a zoo to a successful businessman by his merit alone while his father was president?


Signing the documents stating that the government accounts are OK while they are not is a felony by itself. Saying it isn't is the same as saying that the accountant from a company is not held responsible if something is wrong with the company declaration to the IRS.

What we believe is irrelevant as far as there is no proof, this is just pointless to discuss.

I think Dilma is just an idiot in the midst of a bunch of straight up criminals, she is not one. I think Lula was a legit well-intended guy that corrupted himsef in order to maintain the power within his party (which to him was the best for the country) and I would paint him as a criminal today, yes, but we need concrete proofs and not only speculations.

PT basically tried to do what the PRI succesfully did to Mexico for 70 years. Thank god we have decent to good institutions that blocked their intentions. Considering everything that we are up to, at the moment, the impeachment would solve absolutely none of our countries problems. The only benefit we would have is the return of governability and confidence so we could focus on other things. But let's be rational, this could be done without impeachment, but the logic intrinsic to our politicians is incompatible with this unfortunately. To most of our politicians in the Congress, it's better to make the PT bleed and never recover than try to solve our grave problems and let the people judge who is worth their votes in the next elections.

 

[AnotherDayAnotherDollar]

China is already the world's largest economy, or will be by the end of this year.

Not in nominal GDP.

 

[Tiops]

What we believe is irrelevant as far as there is no proof, this is just pointless to discuss.

I think Dilma is just an idiot in the midst of a bunch of straight up criminals, she is not one. I think Lula was a legit well-intended guy that corrupted himsef in order to maintain the power within his party (which to him was the best for the country) and I would paint him as a criminal today, yes, but we need concrete proofs and not only speculations.

PT basically tried to do what the PRI succesfully did to Mexico for 70 years. Thank god we have decent to good institutions that blocked their intentions. Considering everything that we are up to, at the moment, the impeachment would solve absolutely none of our countries problems. The only benefit we would have is the return of governability and confidence so we could focus on other things. But let's be rational, this could be done without impeachment, but the logic intrinsic to our politicians is incompatible with this unfortunately. To most of our politicians in the Congress, it's better to make the PT bleed and never recover than try to solve our grave problems and let the people judge who is worth their votes in the next elections.

What would be the solution? The government acted in irresponsible ways (so much that they had to change the fiscal target twice as we have an absurd deficit) and already shown that they would do anything to stay in power. Should the deputies and senators just accept everything the government throwns at them?

We are in the middle of a big corruption crisis, lots of people related to Lula being arrested and investigated, PT already shown how low they can go in a political campaing (like comparing the opposition to the Nazis), how can there be governability when the own government destroyed bridges and make people oppose them? Even the allied base is turning againt the government, and we have a clear dispute of power between Dilma and Lula, that still acts like the fucking president (and have his large share of followers).

 

[Ganzlinger]

I think Dilma is just an idiot in the midst of a bunch of straight up criminals, she is not one.

She might be honest, but she is responsible. She appoints ministers, she is the one who signs, etc.

'With great power comes great responsabilty."

 

[JesseEwiak]

What would be the solution? The government acted in irresponsible ways (so much that they had to change the fiscal target twice as we have an absurd deficit) and already shown that they would do anything to stay in power. Should the deputies and senators just accept everything the government throwns at them?

We are in the middle of a big corruption crisis, lots of people related to Lula being arrested and investigated, PT already shown how low they can go in a political campaing (like comparing the opposition to the Nazis), how can there be governability when the own government destroyed bridges and make people oppose them? Even the allied base is turning againt the government, and we have a clear dispute of power between Dilma and Lula, that still acts like the fucking president (and have his large share of followers).

Win the next election. If Dilma is so horrible, then a nice center-right candidate who will appease the middle class will win easily. The Democrat's in '06 didn't impeach Bush just because they now had a Congressional majority. Especially considering everything I've read is that every party in Brazil is a patronage machine - the difference is, the PT just got caught with their hands in the cookie jar.

 

[Siegfried]

What we believe is irrelevant as far as there is no proof, this is just pointless to discuss.

I think Dilma is just an idiot in the midst of a bunch of straight up criminals, she is not one. I think Lula was a legit well-intended guy that corrupted himsef in order to maintain the power within his party (which to him was the best for the country) and I would paint him as a criminal today, yes, but we need concrete proofs and not only speculations.

PT basically tried to do what the PRI succesfully did to Mexico for 70 years. Thank god we have decent to good institutions that blocked their intentions. Considering everything that we are up to, at the moment, the impeachment would solve absolutely none of our countries problems. The only benefit we would have is the return of governability and confidence so we could focus on other things. But let's be rational, this could be done without impeachment, but the logic intrinsic to our politicians is incompatible with this unfortunately. To most of our politicians in the Congress, it's better to make the PT bleed and never recover than try to solve our grave problems and let the people judge who is worth their votes in the next elections.

Yes, I agree with everything you said and could not have said better. Dilma always struck me as a huge idiot, but an idiot that decided to (or was hugely influenced to) stay among criminals and now she will end up paying for it. Even though she might not have done absolutely anything wrong, she will end up as the escape goat for everyone else, since they are far smarter than her and used to escaping this kind of situations.

Only good thing about all that is happening now is seeing the ***** hitting the fan and people finally getting arrested after years and years of corruption. We can only hope things will improve from now on, but I have my doubts... I would bet my life that every single government we had was corrupt, just on a smaller degree, so what will happen is that they will go down a notch for at least a while.

She might be honest, but she is responsible. She appoints ministers, she is the one who signs, etc.

'With great power comes great responsabilty."

Exactly my point. She might have been manipulated and used all the time, but it was her name there and she will end up answering for it.

 

[JJD]

There is no right in Brazil, just anti-PT. No ''right-wing'' party has a defined ideology or even a plan for Brazil at the moment, they just want to exterminate PT and get to the power. Then maybe they will think about what they should do. And to be fair, PT is not leftist either, only in the speech.

It's sad how PSDB has been slowly moving to the right ever since FHC reelection. I used to respect PSDB but I see then aligned with people like Bolsanaro and Caiado I just can't support then.

If Mário Covas was alive I'm absolutely certain he would weep seeing the current situation of the party he founded.

I'll link two articles from Folha telling how the current situation of PSDB is fucked up and how PSDB and PT have more in common then the parties PSDB currently aligns with like DEM.

http://www1.folha.uol.com.br/ilustrissima/2015/08/1662856-crise-do-pt-da-oportunidade-ao-psdb-para-reencontrar-sua-identidade.shtml

http://www1.folha.uol.com.br/ilustrissima/2015/09/1680458-o-giro-do-psdb-no-espectro-politico-e-o-deslocamento-do-pt.shtml

Before anyone says anything know that the first article was written by Sergio Fausto, director of Fernando Henrique Cardoso's Institute. The second one was written by one of Folha's best writers commenting the first article.

A few choice quotes from both, sadly in Portuguese:

O partido nasceu marcando uma dupla diferença. À direita, com o PMDB, sua casa de origem, que na visão das lideranças tucanas havia deixado de ser o "partido das mudanças" para se tornar uma força do status quo conservador e clientelista no correr do governo Sarney. À esquerda, com o PT, para o qual, à época, "as mudanças" deveriam ultrapassar os limites definidos pela Constituição de 1988, pavimentando o caminho para o socialismo.

Em sua origem, o PSDB foi um partido social-democrata. Seu aliado mais frequente em eleições majoritárias, antes de 1994, era o PDT de Leonel Brizola, e houve quem propusesse a fusão dos dois partidos (o que, inclusive, facilitaria a entrada dos tucanos na Internacional Socialista).

(...) (e o PSDB, afinal, apoiou Lula no segundo turno). Qualquer história da esquerda brasileira que não inclua Covas e FHC, Serra e Bresser, será sempre incompleta.

Mas os próprios fundadores do PSDB já sabiam que a escolha do nome "social-democrata" podia cobrar seu preço. O ex-ministro Bresser-Pereira contou, em entrevista de 2011 ao jornal "Valor Econômico", que Franco Montoro, democrata-cristão histórico, teve um momento profético durante os debates iniciais dos tucanos: dizia que, se o PT, com sua base sindical, virasse governo e moderasse seu discurso, seria a social-democracia brasileira e empurraria o PSDB para a direita. Em uma palestra de 1991 na Fiesp, Leôncio Martins Rodrigues dizia que o PSDB e o PDT não eram social-democratas, pois lhes faltava a base sindical. E completava dizendo que "só quem pode ser social-democrata é o PT, que não quer ser (por ser radical demais)".

O PSDB é um experimento interessante de ciência política: sua posição dentro do sistema prevaleceu sobre a identidade de seus fundadores. O PSDB vota mais à direita no Congresso Nacional hoje em dia do que votava antes de 1994, suas alianças frequentes são bem mais conservadoras.

Não conheço estudos sobre recrutamento partidário tucano, mas os quadros jovens de destaque do PSDB (como os "cabeças pretas") não parecem estar lendo nada muito à esquerda. É provável que a maioria dos filiados ao PSDB nos últimos dez anos tenha sido atraída pelo antipetismo dos tucanos. É difícil citar um membro de destaque do PSDB com menos de 50 anos que tenha um perfil ideológico semelhante, digamos, ao de Mario Covas.

Nesse último cenário (impeachment), após o fracasso em ser uma versão mais sofisticada do PT, e um extraordinário sucesso em ser uma versão mais sofisticada do PFL, o PSDB voltaria às origens e lideraria o que, em 1988, chamou de "PMDB Arenizado". Em algum lugar, Orestes Quércia sorri.

I'm convinced that the only way our country will find stability (both economical and political) is if PSDB and PT can make amends and work together each on their own way. But unfortunately it seems that both parties are more interested in destroying each other, and our country in the process.

Right now both parties are a disgrace. Dilma has been horrible, and Aécio is the worst party leader PSDB ever had. The guy is more concerned in promoting himself and his brand than resolving his parties or his countries problems.

 

[Tiops]

Win the next election. If Dilma is so horrible, then a nice center-right candidate who will appease the middle class will win easily. The Democrat's in '06 didn't impeach Bush just because they now had a Congressional majority. Especially considering everything I've read is that every party in Brazil is a patronage machine - the difference is, the PT just got caught with their hands in the cookie jar.

The impeachment process is not happening because "we want it". The legal base behind it is because the government made some changes to fiscal values and our court of accounts repproved Dilma's accounts, basically. And they also did that on previous years.

These accounts were always "approved with some reservations", but things were abused more than ever. I can wait for the next election, sure, but the ones that are getting absolutely fucked are the poor, not the middle or high class. Gas prices doubled, electricity bills doubled, we have an almost 10% inflation, unemployment is rising, the poorer are getting drowned in debts, etc.

 

[And_Gignac]

Is not Dilma´s fault commodities are out of fashion.

 

[Butts-a-plenty]

China is already the world's largest economy, or will be by the end of this year.

Highly depended on what you are using to measure it.

Nominal GDP.

USA - $17 trillion
China- $10 trillion

Still has a way to go.

 

[Dehumanizer]

As always, here is a link to BrazilGAF Official Thread for those new faces.


I find hilarious that people complain a lot about Dilma and ONLY about her.

She praticaly always ruled with the congress and senate against her, specialy on this term.

No, the economy is shitty because of her government decisions. In her first term, congress approved all she requested. She skyrocketed the public budget to win the elections and lied about the real situation. Now the bomb she planted is exploding. Cunha has nothing to do with this. Nothing from his "pauta bomba" was approved. Situation came to this for the only and sole reason she did the wrong choices (and Lula too, during his second term). Populism in its best...

 

[Dehumanizer]

Is not Dilma´s fault commodities are out of fashion.

So do you assume Brazil only growed during Lula and Dilma terms because of high priced commodities?

 

[Tiops]

No, the economy is shitty because of her government decisions. In her first term, congress approved all she requested. She skyrocketed the public budget to win the elections and lied about the real situation. Now the bomb she planted is exploding. Cunha has nothing to do with this. Nothing from his "pauta bomba" was approved. Situation came to this for the only and sole reason she did the wrong choices (and Lula too, during his second term). Populism in its best...

They even approved a few days ago the change to the fiscal target to help the government. If they didn't approve that, the government would be royally fucked now.

 

[Maintenance]

I cannot believe someone tried to blame sexism for this. For fuck's sake.

 

[Shizuka]

Oh, Cunha finally accepted the impeachment process?

 

[Dehumanizer]

They even approved a few days ago the change to the fiscal target to help the government. If they didn't approve that, the government would be royally fucked now.

Yes, and people still says congress is the one to be blamed, lol

 

[Platy]

I cannot believe someone tried to blame sexism for this. For fuck's sake.

Sexism may not be the reason, but LOTS of sexism appears when people complain about Dilma.

 

[JJD]

The impeachment process is not happening because "we want it". The legal base behind it is because the government made some changes to fiscal values and our court of accounts repproved Dilma's accounts, basically. And they also did that on previous years.

These accounts were always "approved with some reservations", but things were abused more than ever. I can wait for the next election, sure, but the ones that are getting absolutely fucked are the poor, not the middle or high class. Gas prices doubled, electricity bills doubled, we have an almost 10% inflation, unemployment is rising, the poorer are getting drowned in debts, etc.

That is up for discussion.

You do realize the congress passed legislation yesterday that pretty much legitimizes every single fiscal maneuver Dilma did this year right? And that those fiscal maneuvers are the only thing substantiating the impeachment. As far as corruption goes, even the main investigator of Lava Jato Sergio Moro said there isn't anything on her.

Have you seen Joaquin Barbosa's comments about the impeachment?

I'll quote one for you:

O Tribunal Superior Eleitoral (TSE) e o Tribunal de Contas de União (TCU) não têm elementos para dar suporte a um processo que leve ao impeachment da presidente Dilma Rousseff, disse neste sábado o ex-ministro do Supremo Tribunal Federal (STF) Joaquim Barbosa.

For those that don't know Joaquim was the first black member of our Supreme Court and he achieved the status of "national hero" for his fight against corruption on the Mensalão case that rocked our country a few years ago.

I'll also point out that the tribunal that judged Dilma's fiscal maneuvers (TCU) is first and foremost a political tribunal no matter what it's members say.

All judges, every single one of then is a retired politician who usually gets the nomination as a consolation prize when they lose an election.

The judge that condemned Dilma's fiscal maneuvers not only was nominated by the PMDB but has close ties to Eduardo Cunha, our corrupt house leader that initiated the impeachment process. He and his son are being investigated for corruption in the same Lava Jato investigation that is fustigating PT.

The situation is a LOT more complex than most people are willing to admit. And frankly there is no right or innocent side.

 

[Gbraga]

Oh, Cunha finally accepted the impeachment process?

Yep. Now he can go to jail where he belongs. Outlived his usefulness.

 

[Ganzlinger]

I'll also point out that the tribunal that judged Dilma's fiscal maneuvers (TCU) is first and foremost a political tribunal no matter what it's members say.

All judges, every single one of then is a retired politician who usually gets the nomination as a consolation prize when they lose an election.

It's not political it's an administrative tribunal. And no, they aren't all politicians: ministers Walton Rodrigues, Benjamin Zynler and Bruno Dantas for example.

The court is composed of nine ministers, who must meet the following requirements to be appointed:

- Over 35 and under 65 years old
- Moral character and unblemished reputation
- Notorious legal knowledge, accounting, economics and finances or of public administration
- More than 10 years due to exercise or actual professional activity which requires the knowledge mentioned in the previous item

A third of ministers will be chosen by the President with the approval of the Senate, two alternately among auditors and prosecutors from Public Ministry (Ministério Público) at the Court, among the three names chosen by the Court, according to the criteria of seniority and merit

The other two-thirds will be chosen by Congress and appointed by the President.

 

[gutter_trash]

Impeaching the President serves as a temporary band-aid that won't cure Brazil's culture of corruption that is infected in every facet of Brazil's business, justice system, police force, politcal class, infrastructure. ... all of it

Brazil needs a total reboot

 

[Tiops]

That is up for discussion.

You do realize the congress passed legislation yesterday that pretty much legitimizes every single fiscal maneuver Dilma did this year right? And that those fiscal maneuvers are the only thing substantiating the impeachment.

I don't know if it legitimizes, but it was really sad to see that passing for another year. And I actually don't believe that there will be enough votes from the congressman for her impeachment, which kinda throws away the argument that everything that's happening is the congress fault or anything.

As far as corruption goes, even the main investigator of Lava Jato Sergio Moro said there isn't anything on her.

Yes, we don't have any concrete proof of her involvement on all those schemes. But she's not proven innocent yet either. Cerveró said on his delation that Dilma knew about the Pasadena refinery. Investigations are still going.

Have you seen Joaquin Barbosa's comments about the impeachment?

I'll quote one for you:

Sure, I know that. I said that the fundaments of the impeachment request are based on the "pedaladas" (maneuvers). If we had concrete breaking of laws, there would be no discussion about the impeachment.

I'll also point out that the tribunal that judged Dilma's fiscal maneuvers (TCU) is first and foremost a political tribunal no matter what it's members say.

All judges, every single one of then is a retired politician who usually gets the nomination as a consolation prize when they lose an election.

The judge that condemned Dilma's fiscal maneuvers not only was nominated by the PMDB but has close ties to Eduardo Cunha, our corrupt house leader that initiated the impeachment process. He and his son are being investigated for corruption in the same Lava Jato investigation that is fustigating PT.

Yep, I know that. But the repproval was unanimous in TCU, not only by that probably corrupt judge. And it's definitely not a legal conclusion, but it is a technical one that could be use to identify a irresponsible and incompetent government.

The situation is a LOT more complex than most people are willing to admit. And frankly there is no right or innocent side.

It is complex, and it's a shame how a lot of things are conducted here, and how most of the times political reasons are treated with more importance than the real, social and economical reasons. I believe that our current way of governing is really bad and needs to change, and as I don't see any will by PT to change things and all they claim is that "the opposition is planning a coup!", I want to see them go.

 

[Syntsui]

I agree that Dilma should be accountable for everything that happened under her adminstration. If any concrete proof that she knew that any crime was being commited under her Ministries/Public contracts and still supported it, I will be the first one to support an impeachment.

As of now most of the people don't comprehend how grave an impeachment is for the country's reputation. It can't be dealt by emotion and must be analysed with extreme caution.

As alternatives left to the government in case there is no impeachment, I don't think there is any other than the ones already in progression, which are being blocked/delayed (Thank god the change to the fiscal target was approved yesterday, otherwise the country would literally shutdown) by the opposition and criticized by her own base. She is trying to fix her fuck ups but it's way too late for that and it's way too hard to articulate anything with the Congress/Senate.

Ministries were given, deals were made backstage and here we are...

 

[JJD]

I cannot believe someone tried to blame sexism for this. For fuck's sake.

Sexism may not be the reason, but LOTS of sexism appears when people complain about Dilma.

Sexism is far, far from the main reason of Dilma's current situation.

But when you have one of the biggest leaders of the opposition and rising star of our right wing parties (Bolsonaro) saying in the middle of a congress session that a female representative who supports Dilma was so ugly that he wouldn't even want to rape her I can't help but thing that sexism is indeed one of the factors for some people.

The level of hate in Brazil's current political discussion is so great that only the reaction from Obama's two victories can compare.

Actually I think our situation is a bit worse, we have a significant amount of people arguing for a return of the murderous military dictatorship for christ's sake.

 

[recks]

Being a shit president does not make you a criminal or even rules for an impeachment.

I agree, being a shitty president doesn't make you a criminal nor rules for an impeachment. Breaking the law does though.

 

[Granjinha]

Sexism is far, far from the main reason of Dilma's current situation.

But when you have one of the biggest leaders of the opposition and rising star of our right wing parties (Bolsonaro) saying in the middle of a congress session that a female representative who supports Dilma was so ugly that he wouldn't even want to rape her I can't help but thing that sexism is indeed one of the factors for some people.

The level of hate in Brazil's current political discussion is so great that only the reaction from Obama's two victories can compare.

Actually I think our situation is a bit worse, we have a significant amount of people arguing for a return of the murderous military dictatorship for christ's sake.

But Bolsonaro is pretty much the only one who says shit like that. He's awful and constantly yells shitty things, but that's pretty much it. He doesn't have any real chances of winning an presidential election. He's not really relevant, too.

And really, it isn't sexism. Dilma and PT didn't know how to run a country and now they are being (rightfully) bashed for it. Every single thing that happens people try to justify with some 'oh but this oh but that'. Even with the Delcidio (The Senator that represented PT in the Senate) case some people said that his prison was part of a coup and violated the constitution. I mean, wtf.

I do agree about the hate thing, though. Left-wing pages talking about killing people that are in favor of impeachment or the conservatives with their bullshit way of thinking.

EDIT: Oh god there's people defending Haddad in the first page lol

 

[zero shift]

Jesus fuck, Brazil PoliGaf is fierce...

Anyway the future of Latin America seems to be up in the air.

On one hand some of the areas most noteworthy left wing poster nations are now terrible examples to give. Argentina just elected a right wing president. Venezuela is becoming the Greece of the Western Hemisphere and is becoming more authoritarian every day. At least they still have Ecuador and Bolivia but they are too poor of countries to really hold up too much.

In terms of the right places like Colombia still have problems with inequality and Peru (which is right in market terms at least) has an economy that is really slowing down.

It will be interesting to see how things play out.

 

[Tiops]

Jesus fuck, Brazil PoliGaf is fierce...

Anyway the future of Latin America seems to be up in the air.

On one hand some of the areas most noteworthy left wing poster nations are now terrible examples to give. Argentina just elected a right wing president. Venezuela is becoming the Greece of the Western Hemisphere and is becoming more authoritarian every day. At least they still have Ecuador and Bolivia but they are too poor of countries to really hold up too much.

In terms of the right places like Colombia still have problems with inequality and Peru (which is right in market terms at least) has an economy that is really slowing down.

It will be interesting to see how things play out.

Venezuela is in a way way worse situation than Greece, in every way.

 

[Syntsui]

Jesus fuck, Brazil PoliGaf is fierce...

Anyway the future of Latin America seems to be up in the air.

On one hand some of the areas most noteworthy left wing poster nations are now terrible examples to give. Argentina just elected a right wing president. Venezuela is becoming the Greece of the Western Hemisphere and is becoming more authoritarian every day. At least they still have Ecuador and Bolivia but they are too poor of countries to really hold up too much.

In terms of the right places like Colombia still have problems with inequality and Peru (which is right in market terms at least) has an economy that is really slowing down.

It will be interesting to see how things play out.

Chile seems like a nice place. There was a scandal with Bachelet's son a few months ago but I didn't look too much into that. I went there in July and some people, even brazilians living there really hate her, but I didn't feel the country was in political crysis or anything like that.

Also, like Tiops said, Venezuela wishes they were Greece lol.

 

[gutter_trash]

Venezuela is in a way way worse situation than Greece.

Venezuela has been worse than Greece for over a decade. The high crime levels are not comparable

 

[JJD]

It's not political it's an administrative tribunal. And no, they aren't all politicians: ministers Walton Rodrigues, Benjamin Zynler and Bruno Dantas for example.

The court is composed of nine ministers, who must meet the following requirements to be appointed:

- Over 35 and under 65 years old
- Moral character and unblemished reputation
- Notorious legal knowledge, accounting, economics and finances or of public administration
- More than 10 years due to exercise or actual professional activity which requires the knowledge mentioned in the previous item

A third of ministers will be chosen by the President with the approval of the Senate, two alternately among auditors and prosecutors from Public Ministry (Ministério Público) at the Court, among the three names chosen by the Court, according to the criteria of seniority and merit

The other two-thirds will be chosen by Congress and appointed by the President.

You don't need to teach me how the TCU works, I'm speaking from experience. My father was a judge on TCE MG for more than 20 years. He was forced to step down because he turned 70 years old. Thank God the "PEC da Bengala" changed that. TCEs have mostly the same function of the TCU only at a state level I'm sure you know.

From wikipedia:

Walton Alencar Rodrigues:

Presidiu a corte entre 2007 e 2008. Seu nome foi alvo de questionamento por elevadas despesas com diárias em sua gestão e suposta ingerência de cunho político no Tribunal.

Benjamin Zymler was nominated by FHC, he was nominated for political reasons regardless if he is a career politician or not.

I'll grant you that Bruno Dantas seems to be above suspicion considering his academic career.

But don't fool yourself the overwhelming majority of the TCU and every single TCE and TCC is a political tribunal. Ask anyone with a little know how in this matter, lawyers, judges or politicians.

It's kinda naive of yourself to argue this, and frankly it's not really even worth discussing.

The point is:

For more than 30 years every single democratic elected government has resorted to fiscal maneuvers to get his fiscal year accounting approved by the TCU.

Every single government from FHC to Lula. Hell FHC practically wrote the manual on this.

Dilma did it too without a hitch on her last term.

Now that she lacks political support the TCU has suddenly decided to do a complete 180 on it's understanding of said fiscal maneuvers. They have always been approving such practices with restrictions but decided in the middle of the game that they won't do that anymore.

Gee...I wonder why is that...

You also forget that the TCU's ruling by itself has no judicial value. The congress has to vote it's approval. And they have yet to do that.

The congress has never rejected TCU's orientation before because the last time the TCU rejected the accounting of a president was back in 1937.

If the congress hasn't decided yet if Dilma's accounting is valid, what's the base for the impeachment process???

 

[zero shift]

Venezuela is in a way way worse situation than Greece, in every way.

I mean by Latin American standards. Reasonable quality of life before, now things are worse than ever. In Venzuela's case food shortages, crime, shortages for everything, etc.