Ganzlinger
Member
It's the famous "O jeito é devolver o País pros índios e pedir desculpas...." lol
Chile is the best we have.
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Brazil, hit by worst downturn since Great Depression, begins impeachment of President
- Thread starter Cerium
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It's the famous "O jeito é devolver o País pros índios e pedir desculpas...." lol
Chile is the best we have.
zero shift
Banned
Who do we thank for that?
gutter_trash
Banned
Uruguay and Chile are at the top of good quality of life.
Venezuela and Ecuador rank at the bottom
Before Chavez, Venezuala was vibrant and blustering. Post Chavez, turned into dump ran by bus driver
Maintenance
Member
Chile signed the TPP, IIRC.
zero shift
Banned
I thought Ecuador's economy was doing well?
While I believe that the PAN was very regressive on social issues and lacked the "cojones" to really tackle the corruption when they could, they economists where damn solid. Mexico is doing decently considering the oil economy went to the shitter.
As I said before there is no way we'll have financial and political stability until PSDB and PT decide to work together.
They are the only parties with a national project worth a damn, and people arguing Dilma's impeachment would be amazed if they realized how much both parties are alike. There's people like Marina arguing that there is a "third way", but it's too early to tell IMO.
Every single other party is in for the money, the power, the influence and the government job nominations. It saddens me to say this considering I have family who were active in the foundation of MDB during the military dictatorship.
Today's PMDB is a fucking disgrace, a tragedy, a spat in the face of the people who came before and build it.
Clockwork5
Member
Things are not looking good. On NPR a couple days ago a Brazilian official stated that São Paulo will be totally out of water in a few months.
I have nothing against the Brazilian people but what their leaders are doing to the Amazon rain forest is criminal.
I have nothing against the Brazilian people but what their leaders are doing to the Amazon rain forest is criminal.
Ganzlinger
Member
I had no intention of teaching you, I was only correcting your generalization. You seem awfully salty about this. Calm down.
You assume I have faith on the TCU? I don't, I know how it works. That's why I'm against political nominations for these high positions.
In any case, I don't have access to the government's accountability and I don't have the knowledge to judge it. You are saying they are biased but can you actually prove that their decision is technically wrong?
In any case, I know that the TCU's decision doesn't attach anything. But the impeachment is a political decision, not judicial. That's why the Supreme Court can't do anything if the Congress votes for Rousseff's impeachment. Who will decide if the fiscal maneuvers are enough reason are the Congressmen.
The way we deal with our natural resources is indeed a crime. We do have real, well written government policies regulating and protecting said resources but like everything else in Brazil they are not properly enforced.
The Amazon is in a completely different hydrographic basin than the state of SP. SP's problems is mainly administrative. Cities grew to big without proper planning, and since we were always rich in natural resources no one cared that they actually could be depleted someday.
We are a country that LOVES to legislate about everything and anything but we never enforce or follow through our legislation.
A few days ago Congress passed legislation that makes it a crime punishable with 4 years in jail to smoke in a car with a pregnant woman or a child. Can you fucking believe that?
I don't smoke, I fucking hate cigarettes but this is preposterous. And I doubt it will be enforced. At most people will be fined to help the local authorities coffers.
gutter_trash
Banned
the economy at the hand of the haves, yes but not at the hands of have-nots
Ecuardor is a lobsided country where the wedge between to rich and poor is huge
Our politicians all have a base level of sliminess, but Cunha is a straight up psychopath. I mean, damn. Dude just keeps on lying with his hands and mouth full of cookies as if nobody is going to find out. Can barely keep a straight face.
Anyway, since impeachments are lengthy processes, it's more likely he gets ejected way before things even get really started. Also, even a large part of PSDB became wary of going after an impeachment built on shaky grounds since it might cause too big of a wreck for them when they get their hands on the wheel. Big investors are almost all against it and the big media also backpedaled a while ago after months pushing for it.
I just hope all his shenanigans push for changes in the laws dealing with criminal politicians. If any normal citizen had given the statements he have during the investigations on his offshore accounts so far, they would go to jail for perjury and obstruction of justice, but under the law congressmen are basically God-Emperors that are assumed to be saints on the basis they were elected by the people.
Well, if she renounced in order to take Cunha out she would at least leave a good legacy behind.
Anyway, since impeachments are lengthy processes, it's more likely he gets ejected way before things even get really started. Also, even a large part of PSDB became wary of going after an impeachment built on shaky grounds since it might cause too big of a wreck for them when they get their hands on the wheel. Big investors are almost all against it and the big media also backpedaled a while ago after months pushing for it.
I just hope all his shenanigans push for changes in the laws dealing with criminal politicians. If any normal citizen had given the statements he have during the investigations on his offshore accounts so far, they would go to jail for perjury and obstruction of justice, but under the law congressmen are basically God-Emperors that are assumed to be saints on the basis they were elected by the people.
Well, if she renounced in order to take Cunha out she would at least leave a good legacy behind.
Confirmation bias tho, those people use her sex as justifications for her acts.
Sure, thats sexism, but the problems are still there and people would still be complaining about them through other means other than sexism.
I'm just saying they are biased wether they approved the accounting or if they rejected it and that people should keep it in mind before they make judgments about the legitimacy of any government.
Technically speaking the fiscal maneuvers should be considered illegal, but as I said they have been used by pretty much every elected government and condoned by the authorities that should fiscalize it. And there is the fact that congress approved legislation that legalizes those maneuvers the same day the impeachment was accepted.
Imagine that Dilma is impeached, elections are held and Aécio wins. You can be certain that he will resort to maneuvers specially considering our current fiscal situation. And when he does that the TCU will happily approve it.
If your only reason for disapproving a practice is to get the one who did it out of their job and not because they are illegal you're doing it wrong. If you would usually approve some practice but won't do it because you don't like somebody you're doing it wrong.
There are a lot of very serious people, that don't support Dilma or PT in the slightest that are very concerned about the way things are turning.
We are a young democracy, our institutions are not yet totally developed. The impeachment process is traumatizing beyond belief. We were lucky with it once when Collor was ousted and Itamar was made president. We might not be so lucky now.
Indeed, they are alike. Both are really shitty.
The only one that i have sympathy for is the Partido Novo. But they are way too young.
So what? It was never at this level with this kind of damage. Anyway, if now things are changing its good. We need to have institutions that work. And now they seem to be working. Our political space is shitty because everyone steals and gets away with it, and now things seem to be changing.
Clockwork5
Member
Thanks for the perspective. We can only hope that the Brazilian government begins to take their legislation seriously.
The speaker on NPR loosely linked the Amazon depletion to the droughts experienced by Brazil, California and other areas in the Western Hemisphere. Not in terms of water basins but in terms of the global effect of destroying the most diverse ecosystem on the planet.
Again thanks for your reply. It is always interesting to hear first hand accounts from people living on the other side of the world.
zero shift
Banned
Inequality is going down in Ecuador though is it not?
Afro Thunder
Member
It's been raining quite a lot recently. Indeed more than expected for this season and we are in a better situation nowadays than one year ago. The El Niño phenomenon is doing a better job than our politicians but it won't last forever so that prediction might be a reality next year.
This is really debatable you know.
What damage was done? The money the government "borrowed" from state owned banks to finance social and health programs was paid even if late and without interest.
It's been well know that during FHC government the budget surplus (superávit primário) was only achieved with fiscal maneuvers like this.
I'll even give you an example: For years the government outright stole tax based money (CPMF) destined to health programs to achieve the budget surplus that the FMI demanded from the brazilian government during FHC's years. This money was never returned. Ever.
It even caused the creator of the CPMF the late health ministry Adib Jatene to resign and cut relations with FHC. He created the CPMF to finance our universal health care and never saw a dime of it. It was all funneled to bankers to pay our countries debt.
And you know what? I don't blame FHC from doing that. It was a necessary evil. We needed money and the alternative was way worse.
But being necessary doesn't make it right and FHC still got a pass for it. Why shouldn't Dilma get one too?
Ganzlinger
Member
Coriolanus
Banned
Yes. In 12 years in power, PT somehow followed PSDB's instructions even better than PSDB ever did, and then suddenly went "lol, fuck dat". Mantega took the job in 2006. Global crisis hit in 2008. We rebounded very well from that. Dude was sacked this year in january, Levy started doing his pmdb austerity shit and things started falling apart faster than ever before, but obviously it's all that fucking mantega's fault.
Dear god.
Right.
Look at inflation during sarney and collor. Look at unemployment. Look at your bank savings account and see if you can draw money from it. See if there are lines on the street to purchase basic goods. See if we're having to cut zeroes from our currency because we can't even work with eight digit calculators. See i we have Dilma Inspectors going around in supermarkets to check if prices have been properly frozen.
You can shout that she's the worst president ever however much you want. She is not even remotely close. The bar is set way too fucking high for that.
Yes, we might end up getting two years of recession in a row, characterizing a depression, and that will be very sad. Alas, i'll take two years of slow descent over jumping from a cliff.
And quoting this again, since we're quoting just the GDP value, here's Greece's chart;
Funny how it's similar, huh?
You do know that greece's crash happened while they had right wing governments in power before, during and after their crisis, which didn't hesitate for a single second to cut spending and start privatizing everything, yes? You also do know that greece has no control over their own currency while they remain in the EMU, thus not being even remotely similar to brazil, yes?
Why, of course you do.
Fucksake mate. Trying to use Greece as an example? With me? gods.
You'd do well to read the original quote and understand the context, then. Should decrease your fears.
Indeed my friend, things are changing. Things are changing when the PF is concerned.
Things are changing while PT is in power. Because the modus operandi before? "acabou em pizza". Which we still see very often at the state level, as alckmin shows us oh so very well with his siemens scandal.
This is my concern with whoever comes after. I remember when the fuckers managed to shelve everything. I remember when Collor was elected saying that he'd hunt maharajas. I remember when the market threw an absolute shitfit for no reason whatsoever when it noticed in 2002 that shit, beardie might take this after all.
I dont care if PT falls. The party is tainted. The day they refused to kick out Genoino after the dude was convicted is the day they crossed the point of no return. I do care about what will happen with the good it did.
Been fucked since tancredo died, mate. Figueiredo knew exactly what the fucker would do.
Actually, I'm not really sure the current bouts of corruption are that much worse than those in the past or, God forbid, whatever happened during the days of the military dictatorship where all media was under censorship (some people actually believe the military were saints and no corruption took place under their rule... because it was never investigated by military-controlled authorities or broadcast in military-censored news). Bribes and frauds on public procurement processes is a time-honored tradition in Brazilian politics and there are reports that the whole Petrobras thing was standard practice as far back as the 70s.
What did change is that it became much harder to do such things under wraps and it's gradually becoming harder to get away entirely. For the first time ever, we had some of the richest people in the country and a senator actually go to jail (even if only for a short while).
However, it's hard to tell how much of that actually comes from improvements on the institutions themselves and how much comes from politic parties escalating and resorting to uncovering their opponent's ill doings as a weapon. If it's mostly the later, we'll be back into square 1 as soon as either PMDB or PSDB get both executive and legislative power and everyone will rejoice as corruption "disappears" from the news.
You know I don't have a horse in this race. I have sympathies for both PT and PSDB and I hope they find a way to work with each other, but it really pisses me off when any scandal related to PT governments emerge people are like" BURN THEN AT THE STAKE" and when scandals related to PSDB emerge every is like "lol who cares?".
A whole fucking government warehouse full of documents related to the Siemens scandal was burn to the ground and no one gives a shit.
Give it credit where is due people, the PF and to a lesser degree even the MP were on a leash and gagged before Lula. Mário Thomas Bastos is responsible for the current autonomy of the PF and MP and he did it with the blessings of Lula.
Gone are the days of Geraldo Brindeiro "o engavetador geral da república".
Aaaaand?
You shown a GDP value chart showing how much PT is a beautiful party that didn't destroy the economy. I shown a chart showing Greece's economy peak before the depression, like your chart has a peak and is now coming down (and the chart only shows up to 2013, btw). I'm not comparing the economies, I'm showing how the chart you used doesn't mean anything at all.
Oh, and I'm sorry I used that example "with you". I should be aware of your great fame and how you know everything. Fucksake indeed.
This is my biggest fear if the PSDB gets back into the helm. Unlike the PT, they do know how to properly cover their tracks and get things both shelved and off the news. Actually, I don't think they lost much of their influence, as evidenced in how their affiliates are routinely spared by investigations and the media.
yeah... indeed. It is amazing that if it didn't show up in the TV didn't happen mentality that is very stuck in the population.
To people outside Brazil... the major political powers/candidates/politicians all have radio and television stations under their control, so censorship is easy and very biased.
To people outside Brazil... the major political powers/candidates/politicians all have radio and television stations under their control, so censorship is easy and very biased.
A good reminder (from Estadão and Veja of all places) for anyone that really believes that corruption is at an all time high in our country:
http://veja.abril.com.br/blog/mercados/pensando-bem/caro-francis-voce-tinha-que-estar-aqui-pra-ver-isso/
http://alias.estadao.com.br/noticias/geral,suica-connection,1596361
Small quote:
Corruption isn't at an all time high folks, it's just business as usual.
http://veja.abril.com.br/blog/mercados/pensando-bem/caro-francis-voce-tinha-que-estar-aqui-pra-ver-isso/
http://alias.estadao.com.br/noticias/geral,suica-connection,1596361
Small quote:
Há quase 20 anos, o jornalista Paulo Francis denunciou, no programa Manhattan Connection, que “todos os diretores da Petrobrás” punham dinheiro na Suíça. Apesar do alerta em off de Lucas Mendes (“olha, que dá processo”, Francis não tirou o dedo do gatilho. Referiu-se a um amigo, advogado, que num almoço com um banqueiro suíço ouvira deste o seguinte comentário: “Bom mesmo é brasileiro, porque esses bilionários árabes depositam US$ 1 milhão, US$ 2 milhões, mas uma semana depois tiram. Os brasileiros põem US$ 50 milhões, 60 milhões e deixam”. Segundo Francis, toda aquela grana era fruto de roubalheira, de superfaturamento.
Corruption isn't at an all time high folks, it's just business as usual.
Unfortunately...
Coriolanus
Banned
No, it does not. The scale it covers makes 2014 contract at the very end. Tradingeconomics data is up to date, and will be once again updated as soon as we have all the data from 2015, which we still don't.
I had linked the chart to show that no, PT had not destroyed the economy. The periods are different, the measures are different, the situations are completely different. A comparison of Brazil's gdp curve between FHC and Lula is entirely different form a comparison betweehn Brazil's and Greece's. That this has to be explained boggles the mind.
Indeed. Corruption prosecution is, however, at an all time high. Then folks go and equate the two.
I'm just showing that I could show that chart and say "see how Greece is fine?", as you did. I'm not comparing economies, you don't need to explain this to me and get your mind boggled.
Coriolanus
Banned
Clockwork5
Member
Here is a link to the NPR article that discusses the Brazilian drought's correlation to their economic downturn.
http://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2015/11/22/455751848/as-brazils-largest-city-struggles-with-drought-residents-are-leaving
http://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2015/11/22/455751848/as-brazils-largest-city-struggles-with-drought-residents-are-leaving
Ganzlinger
Member
This is an irrational fear and one of PT's brainwash speech. That they are responsible of all these investigations, that's now everything comes clear. Corruption scandals existed during all governments prior to them and they were investigated. If they didn't ended up like the PT scandals is because they were better at hiding it or it didn't existed. Not because the police and the media was under their control. They never were. There are several news from "midia golpista" criticizing FHC's government back them.
oh, i'm not including the military dictatorship period. Fuck that. I don't think we will ever know the damaged the fuckers did.
But no party remained so much time in power like PT did. That did wonders to them. They stole every fucking inch they could to remain in power and to make institutions work for them, not for the country. People can yell all they want, but scandals like Petrolão, Eletrolão and how every single state company is buried in corruption (Eletrobrás, Petrobrás, even Angra for god's sake)
And i'm not even talking how low PT would go to remain in power. With the lies of the political campaign of 2014 from Dilma buying the parlament after winning the election with the creative fiscal law.
Pessimildo was right.
Levy couldn't fix Mantega's damage. We were already way too deep into his bullshit economics to go back without entering a economic crisis.
And, really? The context doesn't change anything. This is just one of the several concerning things Lula said. This is going into damage control territory (which is PT's expertise)
Basically, you're trying to cancel every single criticism against PT in this thread. Like, ok then, they didn't do anything wrong. The party that's 12 years in power and involved in more corruption scandals then anyone else doesn't have any fault that we have reached this point, both socially (shitty education, no safety, etc) and economic.
Yeah, i hate this shit. OH GOD PSDB AT THE HELM AGAIN PLS NO
It's like a checklist:
• Go read a book
• Golpista
• Well i don't like dilma but aecio was way worse because he's mean
etc
Well, you could definitely argue that institionalizing corruption on a massive scale during commodity driven growth goes under the definition of destroying the economy.
Then again, you can definitely argue who's responsible for what and to what degree.
Chile stands to benefit tremendously from TPP.
Chile, in fact, was part of the negotiations before the United States joined.
I never said anything about having things "under control". BTW, "being better at hiding" involves "having influence over whoever is investigating". Just look at Alckmin.
Anyway, the PT is damaged beyond repair already, with or without impeachment. Problem is, a lot of the "institutionalized corruption" had major PMDB participation and those clowns will still stick and cuddle with whoever takes the wheel after the PT is gone.
I'm sorry, but I vehemently disagree.
I never said anything about the media. In fact I believe most of the media did their part during FHC government. I actually quoted a well know reporter from Globo.
It actually baffles me how many journals and periodic magazines forgot what they used to publish 10, 12 years ago.
There is no shortage of scandals concerning PSDB government. All you need to do is google then. From SIVAM to PROER, the privatizations, FHC bribing his way to approve his reelection, Marka/Fontecidam, SUDAM, SUDENE and more recently the mensalão tucano.
All those scandals share the same sad "coincidence": perpetrators never paid for their crimes for one reason or other.
Not even the ones were one of the accused openly confessed his crime like the scandal of the reelection.
The mensalão tucano is specially aggravating. Marcos Valério confessed. He proposed a "delação premiada" and told everything he did and knew about it. The the MP/MG never accepted his delation and no one knows why. They never prosecuted key people involved in the case, and the ones that were prosecuted because there was no way to avoid are happily living their lives while their lawsuits are rotting under a table while everyone waits their punishability to expire. It's a damn shame this was relegated to state tribunals were political influence is more pervasive.
The very same media that you are now defending of being called golpista nicknamed the FHC's then Procurator Geral da República of Engavetador because he loved to shelve lawsuits against the people in power.
What more proof do you need?
Again Brindeiro was FHC Procurator Geral da República for fucking 3 terms. FHC loved the guy. Of 626 lawsuits against government officials including politicians and even FHC he didn't even accept 242 and shelved 217. On his 8 years tenure as the PGR (FHC both terms) he only accepted 60 lawsuits. This is 7,5 lawsuits a year medium. What a joke.
He directly shelved or disregarded 459 lawsuits against 194 congressmen, 33 senators, 11 minister of state and even the president himself.
When Carlinhos Cachoeira was arrested not too long ago, police phone taps discovered that the then highest authority of our country's Minstério Público has been receiving bribes for years.
So please, tell me again how our MP was not gagged and leashed as I said during FHC years? Please convince me that despite all this information he didn't have a hand in sweeping scandals and corruption under the rug on the government of the people who now claim to be more honest than the ones currently on power.
Again I never said anything about the media. But there is no denying that the MP and yes, even the police were completely subjugated by the government.
I will even give you a few numbers:
During 8 years of FHC the Federal Policy conducted only 48 operations. There are no numbers available about how many people they arrested.
During the 8 years of Lula and a bit of Dilma (2003/2011) do you know how many PF operations took place???
1273.
15754 people were arrested. 1882 were government officials. 99 were from PF own ranks.
Here's the link:
http://www.conversaafiada.com.br/brasil/2012/12/05/fortalecimento-da-pf-ocorreu-no-governo-lula
Dehumanizer
Member
Lol, the number of PF operations does not have relation with Lula and Dilma. In fact, they shrinked the investments in the police:
In ten years, investments in the PF fell four times
Between 2002 and 2013, investments in the Policia Federal fell from R$ 81 million to R$ 20 million. Policemen points operations were harmed. The institution denies substantial losses
And here is the link:
http://congressoemfoco.uol.com.br/noticias/em-dez-anos-investimento-na-pf-cai-quatro-vezes/
Well...it really depends on how flexible your friend is, lol.
Our tax system is...unorthodox to say the least. We have a shitton of taxes. They often cascade one on top of another. Municipal, statual and federal legislation contradict each other regularly. States wage "fiscal war" against each other cutting taxes to attract more investment than other states. It's kinda crazy.
If you guys think the "tax loopholes" are bad in the US you haven't seen nothing! Ha
There's been an effort to simplify and rationalize everything but we still have a loooong way to go.
If your friend has already secured a job I'd say he will get the hang of it...eventually.
Dehumanizer
Member
Seriously, how can anyone defend Dilma knowing she has broken the country? We are expecting 3,7% recession this year and 2,7 % in the next, and even in 2017 we have the possibility of more recession. The unemployment is growing and will hit the two digits soon, turning to be higher than during FHC period. Inflation is already higher than 10% and it will keep high next year. Public debt is in the sky and next year it will go to space. Never was so high. What do you people need to open your eyes and see the disaster it's going on?
I'm not defending Dilma. She's failed hard at the politician game, to say the least. But in a country where Sarney existed she's the worst? Seriously?
But a half-baked impeachment will do little but implode the confidence in the country's democratic institutions, while still keeping in power a large bunch of the people involved in the ongoing scandals. Even FHC realized this and now recommends a resignation.
You're confusing investments with budget.
From the article you linked it says that the PF budget rose from 1.5 billion from FHC to 4.3 billion under Lula and Dilma. That's a substantial increase, no?
Could you please explain how you came to the conclusion that operations have nothing to do with the government in charge just by looking at the financials? Specially if you consider that the Federal Policy chief (you know the guy who runs everything) is nominated by the minister of Justice and that the minister of Justice is nominated by the president? I'm not seeing a connection in your arguments...lol...
How long do you keep investing until you have a satisfactory work infrastructure? Do you really believe that investments would keep escalating amid cuts in budgets on all government branches after the 2008 crisis going to this day?
Your article makes no sense. It mentions a delegate complaining about travel expenses when this is clearly not an investment but a budget restriction.
Plus this is an article about the police force union complaining about working conditions, cuts and asking for more money. With all respect I wouldn't read too much into it. This is pretty much what all unions do...they complain about better working conditions. Doesn't make it wrong but you can't take it at face value without looking into it.
The guy in question is saying that out of a 5 billion budget for 2012 14% were cut, and proceeds to claim that the whole budget is fictional because of it. He says that 4.3 billion doesn't exist because he didn't get 700 million more.
Yeah...sorry but I remain unconvinced.
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