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[theignoramus]

the bolded is I think subject to vast disagreement though. The first paragraph is true. The settlement builders want the occupation to continue. But while I support a full and complete freeze of settlements the statement "Every act of building in the settlements, every mobile home and every balcony, conveys rejection." is really dubious because any two state solution knows that major settlement blocs will remain. Building in the E1 area and new settlement areas would better fit that.

there's a symbolic aspect to it, namely, "youll take what we give you and if you dont like it, tough"
Not exactly a way to conduct good faith negotiations, but then Israel isnt negotiating in good faith anyway and probably hasnt since that Olmert offer and Ehud Barak's offer before that.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

I believe it because I have actually listened to Hamas. I have read their charter. I have heard their chants of 'from the river to the sea', their promises that no Jew is safe anywhere in the world, their determination that no inch of what they consider to be Muslim land be ruled by Jews. A return to 1967 borders would be DISASTROUS for Hamas and they openly admit that is not their aim.

Fatah, while extremely far from perfect, do want a return to those borders and while they always bring the issue of right of return to the negotiations, there are signs they are willing to compromise somewhat. For Hamas it is all or nothing, no compromises with the 'apes and pigs'.

you shouldn't believe everything they say. Arafat changed and accepted Israel. Hamas will to (and is much more likely as its a party not a person and cult of personality)

there's a symbolic aspect to it, namely, "youll take what we give you and if you dont like it, tough"
Not exactly a way to conduct good faith negotiations, but then Israel isnt negotiating in good faith anyway and probably hasnt since that Olmert offer and Ehud Barak's offer before that.

Negotiations are never really in good faith in situations like this. One side has leverage, the other doesn't. Its not fair but you either try your hand at that or get nothing. And I'd imagine you'll add bibi to that list of 10 or 15 years.

 

[Windam]

Don't worry folks, I'm sure that this round of airstrikes will be the one that solves the conflict finally.

I believe you.

You better not be lying to me.

 

[JordanN]

The settlements do have a very clear goal, both for the government and those who live there. Take a look at a map of the settlements and how they are scattered. They are intentionally planned this way as to make Swiss cheese of the Palestinian territories. How does Palestine declare a state when there are literally holes in its map? answer is that they don't. The settlements are intentionally a point of contention so that no peace can be reached. Eventually, all that land will be Israel. If the last 60 years are any indication, no one is going to make Israel stop. So they won't.

And Gaza wasn't the same thing either back when they still had Gush Katif?

Anyways, it seems to be taking forever for them to even absorb the land.

 

[nib95]

I believe it because I have actually listened to Hamas. I have read their charter. I have heard their chants of 'from the river to the sea', their promises that no Jew is safe anywhere in the world, their determination that no inch of what they consider to be Muslim land be ruled by Jews. A return to 1967 borders would be DISASTROUS for Hamas and they openly admit that is not their aim.

Fatah, while extremely far from perfect, do want a return to those borders and while they always bring the issue of right of return to the negotiations, there are signs they are willing to compromise somewhat. For Hamas it is all or nothing, no compromises with the 'apes and pigs'.

Maybe you should research a little before spouting off. Hamas leaders had already agreed to a two state solution based on the 1967 borders.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diploma...accepts-a-two-state-solution.premium-1.500390

 

[Interceptor]

It doesn't. But let's not forget that no one helps them. These people are desperate and the world doesn't care.

No one helps them? The whole state is paid by foreign aid. Even though the ruling party randomly fires rockets to civilian settlements. No one cares? The whole world is looking (and paying) at them.

 

[m_shortpants]

And Gaza wasn't the same thing either back when they still had Gush Katif?

Please. Gaza is a fraction of the size of the West Bank.

 

[Terra Firma]

Israel does not want any peace that involves a Palestinian state to coexist with it. Anyone who is saying that is either ignorant of how settlements have been placed in the West Bank or is being willfully deceptive.

 

[Cheesecakebobby]

This is a naive, illogical and somewhat disingenuous way of looking at things. In this make belief world of yours where Israeli no longer have one of the most powerful armies and defences in the world, you say there would be no Israel at all if Hamas were left to run rife, all the while failing to realise that Palestine IS disappearing off the map as a result of Israel's actions today, as in, right now, and over the last several years, with their aggressive expansion of settlements and continued occupation in Palestinian territories.

Add to that, you do realise that according to UN data, the most non military or combatant violence and destruction of property or vandalism isn't actually carried out by Palestinian's, but by Israeli settlers towards Palestinians. And that's with Hamas and the IDF etc, taken completely out of the equation.

You have to consider the kinds of people who would be willing to live on an illegal settlement built on Palestinian land, and surrounded by Palestinian land. These are not usually people who see eye to eye with the plight of Palestinian's, rather they are Jews that feel the land is theirs to own, as ordained by God.

I agree that the settlements are rife with despicable people. That is a separate issue to Hamas's will to wipe out Israel. The settlements exacerbate and perpetuate the overall conflict, I hate them and I wish they were gone. But they are not what drives the most extremist hate, and based on the words and actions of Hamas there is no reason to believe that the dismantling of those settlements, while absolutely necessary in the long run, would satisfy them.

The following is only loosely related to the above so don't think it is aimed specifically at you. There are more actors in this conflict than Israel vs Palestine, you have different political factions plus allies on both sides. But the way I choose to see the core of the issue, and I invite others to do so, is a three way battle which needs to be overcome to reach peace. On one side you have Hamas, an organisation that accepts no compromise and wants no peace that does not conform to its islamist doctrine. Fatah only fall into this category by proxy, they have members who sympathise with extremism and those who don't so are split. On another side you have the Israeli hard right who have too much power and influence due to, in part, a political system of proportional representation which means centre right parties must appease them to form a coalition and get anything done. It also includes the subset of settlers who believe they are performing God's will. Like Hamas they want the whole holy land to themselves and accept no compromise.

Then on one more side, you have the majority of Israeli AND Palestinian people. They both want peace. They are all being manipulated and failed by their governments. It is in the interests of this group of millions of Jews, Arab and other minorities for Hamas to give up their campaign of hate and for the Israeli government to refuse to bow to the wishes of the Right. The people are united in their will for peace above all else.

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

The post I quoted said Israel never had a desire for peace yet Egypt contradicts that. It's not like Israel couldn't have made up an excuse to stay there. Remember this was a time when every country around Israel wanted them wiped off the map. Sinai was very strategic.

Gaza is in Palestine but that's no longer there's either.

He's talking about a Palestinian-Israeli peace plan, not peace in general. Context is key.

You can say the settlements have no end goal either other than just "being there". I can see Israelis getting tired of their tax dollars having to pay for settlements. Especially amongst secular Israelis who don't care for any religious text.

They aren't government funded as far as I'm aware. And while some (many?) of them are defended by the IDF, realistically they are not launching large scale daily airstrikes, executing building-to-building raids, and fighting an active insurgency. The actual monetary outlay and cost in lives is not high, especially not when compared to what America was spending in Iraq, Afghanistan, or Vietnam. Israel receives substantial military aid and can definitely afford to keep doing what it's doing indefinitely.

I must also point out that it is not just religious people who are pro-settlements. There's also good old fashioned racism, and people who are merely nationalistic.

 

[Narpas Sword0]

I don't think Hamas and other terror groups in collusion will stop until they have it all. They want Israel gone, and are exploiting their own on top of that.

If Israel would stop abusing the moderates in the West Bank, and accepted their requests for negotiation that could result in a free and independent, peaceful and (less) poor West Bank, Hamas would lose all its political clout in Gaza.

Oops they reject even conversations with Fatah and continue to steal land from them even in times of peace, looks like Hamas has some new recruitment posters to write up.

 

[Cheesecakebobby]

Maybe you should research a little before spouting off. Hamas leaders had already agreed to a two state solution based on the 1967 borders.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diploma...accepts-a-two-state-solution.premium-1.500390

For every example of a particular individual within Hamas making such a statement to a largely western audience, there are far more examples which say the exact opposite and all the official literature says otherwise. If this was their official position it would be very easy to make it known, if I remember correctly other high up members of Hamas denounced this idea soon after hearing about the comments.

Edit: I may have been mistaken and the idea was that while some Hamas members said they would accept a return to 1967 borders they would still not recognise Israel and it would not signal an end to the intifada. A return to any border is meaningless if it doesn't bring a lasting peace.

 

[Partial Gamification]

Israel does not want any peace that involves a Palestinian state to coexist with it. Anyone who is saying that is either ignorant of how settlements have been placed in the West Bank or is being willfully deceptive.

I can't believe the whole Government secretly is determined to derail the peace process at every opportunity, maybe I have too much faith in people. It seems to me there are hardliners that hold a pro-settlement stance and actively feed the hatred directed toward the Palestinians, from the fringe Israeli extremists. I know Israelis that want peace, earnestly.

 

[nib95]

I agree that the settlements are rife with despicable people. That is a separate issue to Hamas's will to wipe out Israel. The settlements exacerbate and perpetuate the overall conflict, I hate them and I wish they were gone. But they are not what drives the most extremist hate, and based on the words and actions of Hamas there is no reason to believe that the dismantling of those settlements, while absolutely necessary in the long run, would satisfy them.

The following is only loosely related to the above so don't think it is aimed specifically at you. There are more actors in this conflict than Israel vs Palestine, you have different political factions plus allies on both sides. But the way I choose to see the core of the issue, and I invite others to do so, is a three way battle which needs to be overcome to reach peace. On one side you have Hamas, an organisation that accepts no compromise and wants no peace that does not conform to its islamist doctrine. Fatah only fall into this category by proxy, they have members who sympathise with extremism and those who don't so are split. On another side you have the Israeli hard right who have too much power and influence due to, in part, a political system of proportional representation which means centre right parties must appease them to form a coalition and get anything done. It also includes the subset of settlers who believe they are performing God's will. Like Hamas they want the whole holy land to themselves and accept no compromise.

Then on one more side, you have the majority of Israeli AND Palestinian people. They both want peace. They are all being manipulated and failed by their governments. It is in the interests of this group of millions of Jews, Arab and other minorities for Hamas to give up their campaign of hate and for the Israeli government to refuse to bow to the wishes of the Right. The people are united in their will for peace above all else.

Firstly, the bolded, I'd argue was likely the number one factor for the hate and animosity from the Palestinians. That is the occupation and continued settlement expansion/land steal.

Secondly, read my link above or research for yourself. Hamas has already agreed to a two state solution based on the 1967 borders. Why you keep claiming they would never agree to such a solution or agree to such terms is beyond me. They already have. Times have moved on, irrespective of the propaganda you've read or seen. The charter you speak of is likely their 1988 charter which at this point is somewhat dated.

In 2010 Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal stated that the Charter is "a piece of history and no longer relevant, but cannot be changed for internal reasons." Hamas have moved away from their charter since they decided to go for political office.

On the last note about both wanting peace, I hope and would like to believe so. But I also do realise there's a growing right wing aspect of Israel that vehemently believes Palestinian land is theirs to take. I just don't know what percentage of Israeli's actually feel that way. By the same token though, I am sure many Palestinian's still feel Israel should be returned to Palestine, though based on their recent plights, I get the feeling the vast majority would be happy with the 1967 borders at this point.

 

[Narpas Sword0]

I can't believe the whole Government secretly is determined to derail the peace process at every opportunity, maybe I have too much faith in people. It seems to me there are hardliners that hold a pro-settlement stance and actively feed the hatred directed toward the Palestinians, from the fringe Israeli extremists. I know Israelis that want peace, earnestly.

Bibi's election was not a secret

 

[Partial Gamification]

Bibi's election was not a secret

Didn't an alliance recently split though? Due to his not being tough enough?

edit:

Lieberman said his Yisrael Beitenu party, which favors a harder line toward the Gaza-based Islamist group now locked in daily cross-border fighting with Israel, would remain in Netanyahu's coalition despite the breakup with Likud.

"Differences between the prime minister and me have lately become substantial and fundamental," Lieberman said at a news conference.
http://news.yahoo.com/netanyahus-wing-party-union-dissolved-tension-over-hamas-122243394.html

 

[JordanN]

He's talking about a Palestinian-Israeli peace plan, not peace in general. Context is key.

I don't see where his post makes that distinction. It reads ambiguous to Israeli peace in general.

This merry go around Israel offer up with this false premise of peace is just a circus and a false show. There has never been a genuine desire for a peace plan from Israel, just loose or outrageous terms, and backing out of, or often igniting some other reason for talks to break down over and over."

They aren't government funded as far as I'm aware. And while some (many?) of them are defended by the IDF, realistically they are not launching large scale daily airstrikes, executing building-to-building raids, and fighting an active insurgency. The actual monetary outlay and cost in lives is not high, especially not when compared to what America was spending in Iraq, Afghanistan, or Vietnam. Israel receives substantial military aid and can definitely afford to keep doing what it's doing indefinitely.

I must also point out that it is not just religious people who are pro-settlements. There's also good old fashioned racism, and people who are merely nationalistic.

I watched a cartoon (made by Israelis) and one of the things they mocked about settlers is that they receive monthly checks from the government. They were ultra orthodox jews who don't work anyway so they have to get money from the state.

 

[theignoramus]

you shouldn't believe everything they say. Arafat changed and accepted Israel. Hamas will to (and is much more likely as its a party not a person and cult of personality)



Negotiations are never really in good faith in situations like this. One side has leverage, the other doesn't. Its not fair but you either try your hand at that or get nothing. And I'd imagine you'll add bibi to that list of 10 or 15 years.

and I blame America for enabling Israel's bullying, obstinate behaviour in the negotiations. I read some of transcripts from the Palestine Papers. Read Condi Rice telling the Palestinians to "send their refugees to Argentina"
Their fair and honest mediations have mostly been a absolute catastrophe for peace settlement.

 

[besada]

At least this guy is being honest, unlike most of the people in this thread.

I'm reasonably sure you are not a mind reader or human lie detector, so maybe let's have less commentary about people's honesty.

 

[Technosteve]

the more this stuff is on the news the more i just want one side to win.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

I can't believe the whole Government secretly is determined to derail the peace process at every opportunity, maybe I have too much faith in people. It seems to me there are hardliners that hold a pro-settlement stance and actively feed the hatred directed toward the Palestinians, from the fringe Israeli extremists. I know Israelis that want peace, earnestly.

Most people want peace. most people are willing to give things up. What you have though is certain thing certain people won't give up and all of these people have guns pointed at each other preventing any action. Lest they get hurt

and I blame America for enabling Israel's bullying, obstinate behaviour in the negotiations. I read some of transcripts from the Palestine Papers. Read Condi Rice telling the Palestinians to "send their refugees to Argentina"
Their fair and honest mediations have mostly been a absolute catastrophe for peace settlement.

you can blame america all you like. The conflict won't be solved by any outside force. the US isn't preventing a deal.

and there can be fair and honest meditations that takes into account power imbalances

Bibi's election was not a secret

Bibi's election wasn't to end the peace process. The election wasn't even mostly about the peace process and it hasn't been for the last two or 3

 

[kame-sennin]

Are there any good non partial books about Israel and this issue over the years? Sad that there isn't an end in sight.

Unfortunately, we are heading to a very clear end; when Israel has fully occupied the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. You might even see it in your lifetime.

 

[Dryk]

You would really sacrifice your country to please a genocidal terrorist organisation that objects to the very presence of your people in the region? You don't see why that is ludicrous?

Israel is no saint in this regard either unfortunately. I hold out hope that one day the US will get its shit together and stop letting this happen.

Increasing EU pressure is nice.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

Unfortunately, we are heading to a very clear end; when Israel has fully occupied the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. You might even see it in your lifetime.

If that happens they'll either be a binational state like belgium with more violence which in effect will be the two state solution with borders Palestine doesn't like or the end of Israel with an Arab state with a jewish minority

. I hold out hope that one day the US will get its shit together and stop letting this happen.

Increasing EU pressure is nice.

I don't know what this is supposed to mean. What can those places do?

 

[Dryk]

I don't know what this is supposed to mean. What can those places do?

A lot of places in the EU are strongly advising their citizens to not buy produce from Israeli settlements, which is a start. As for the US...

 

[Cheesecakebobby]

Israel is no saint in this regard either unfortunately. I hold out hope that one day the US will get its shit together and stop letting this happen.

Increasing EU pressure is nice.

You're right and I would never claim the Israeli governments are saints! Why does everyone assume that someone who isn't anti-Israel is therefore anti - Palestinian? lol.

One key difference is that while Israel makes no secret of the fact it exists as a Jewish state, and I'm sure there are numerous instances of anti Arab racism within the country (racism exists everywhere after all), a Jewish Israel has no problem accepting a sizeable non Jewish minority. Even fatah say that the Palestinian state must be Jew free, so there is no hope that existing settlements could even be absorbed.

I sometimes wonder what would happen if the government lost US support. Of course it would cause an uproar from the centre and left within the country but most of those people are already willing to give up settlements, as previously mentioned it is the kingmaker Right wing which is the hold up and they couldn't give a shit what the US says.

 

[JordanN]

If that happens they'll either be a binational state like belgium with more violence which in effect will be the two state solution with borders Palestine doesn't like or the end of Israel with an Arab state with a jewish minority

I see a civil war happening before this. The secular Israelis break off from the far right/settlers, splitting the country in two.

Would be funny to see Israel split in half since it happened a long time ago and if for the same reason too.

Then the area gets rebuilt and they start all over again.

 

[RustyNails]

I believe hamas believes that I don't believe they've ever officially stated it.

Hamas supports the united Palestinian position calling for the establishment of a fully sovereign Palestinian state within the 1967 borders, including Jerusalem, and the right of return for refugees, Hamas politburo chief Khaled Meshal told the Palestinian daily Al-Ayam.

In a special interview with Wednesday's edition of the paper, Meshal said the Palestinian position had received a vote of consensus during the national accords of 2006 and that this position is considered acceptable to the Arab world at large.

Link

Things the sides aren't going to get

Palestinian

• Right of Return beyond symbolic numbers
• 67 borders (there will be land swaps and palestine wont get 100%)
• E. Jerusalem. They will get symbolic control over certain areas and large portions of the suburbs in the east but the city will be largely israeli
• fully milliary rights over their territory.

These are not outrageous demands. Even UN and US accept these terms.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

A lot of places in the EU are strongly advising their citizens to not buy produce from Israeli settlements, which is a start. As for the US...

And this will do what? the only thing I can see people advocating is a complete sanction of Israel. Which isn't going to happen and won't have the support of most voters in those countries.

 

[nib95]

Israel is no saint in this regard either unfortunately. I hold out hope that one day the US will get its shit together and stop letting this happen.

Increasing EU pressure is nice.

Most (if not all) of the EU is against Israel's actions and votes in such a way too, via the UN. In fact most of the world does. It's most often than not US vetoes that stop the UN from furthering action or measures, or working to suppress things with respect to Israel.

Fact of the matter is, the US shares a massive part of the blame for what has happened in Palestine, and continues to happen today.

If it wasn't for the US, I can't imagine the situation would be as it is today.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

Link

These are not outrageous demands. Even UN and US accept these terms.

I don't know if your reading my list wrong (I wrote it poorly)

• They won't get a full right of return/ they will get symbolic numbers
• They won't get 67 borders/ there will be land swaps with Israel probably getting more land
• They won't get sovereignty over east Jerusalem/ The city will be divided up with most of the city staying under Israeli control
• They won't get full military control over their land they won't be allowed to have a miliary and I imagine some kind of international force will be in the Jordan valley.

The UN calls for a lot of things. I think using them as markers is pretty useless.

Most of the EU is against Israel's actions and votes in such a way too, via the UN. In fact most of the world does. It's most often than not US vetoes that stop the UN from furthering action or measures, and to suppress things with respect to Israel.

Fact of the matter is, the US shares a massive part of the blame for what has happened in Palestine, and continues to happen today.

What can the UN do? Attempt again an outsiders solution (that worked in 47!)? Pass more condemnations? Induct Palestine (will won't change much)? Bring them to the ICJ? Lets ask the US how Nicaragua worked out for the court.

 

[Chichikov]

I don't know if your reading my list wrong (I wrote it poorly)

• They won't get a full right of return/ they will get symbolic numbers
• They won't get 67 borders/ there will be land swaps with Israel probably getting more land
• They won't get sovereignty over east Jerusalem/ The city will be divided up with most of the city staying under Israeli control
• They won't get full military control over their land they won't be allowed to have a miliary and I imagine some kind of international force will be in the Jordan valley.

The UN calls for a lot of things. I think using them as markers is pretty useless.

I can't see the Palestinians agreeing to this, and I can't say I really blame them.

 

[speculawyer]

I listened to an interview of Reza Aslan today. Basically he seems to have concluded that the chance of a 2 state solution is dead.

If that is dead . . . what is left? Apartheid? A government of national unity? (Good luck with that one.)


A phrase used which seems appropriate: There is the land, a Jewish state, and Democracy . . . but you can't have all 3.

 

[orochi91]

Arab/Palestinian citizens of Israel should continue maintaining their incredibly high
birthrates (relative to other Israelis). Eventually, they will have their majority. I'd
like to see what the Israeli government decides to do at that point, short of straight
up apartheid (even more so than today) and/or genocide.

 

[JordanN]

I can't see the Palestinians agreeing to this, and I can't say I really blame them.

They should definitely not have a military. There's nothing to justify it and would only cause more problems (Hamas with tanks? Hell no).

Jerusalem is past the point of no return. Though I do think Palestinians should be given special status to live and freely travel there because legally, Jerusalem was suppose to be a "world" city.

 

[Cheesecakebobby]

Arab/Palestinian citizens of Israel should continue maintaining their incredibly high
birthrates (relative to other Israelis). Eventually, they will have their majority. I'd
like to see what the Israeli government decides to do at that point, short of straight
up apartheid (even more so than today) and/or genocide.

Unfortunately the most orthodox Jews also have a high birthrate.

You're also assuming all Arab Israelis want to live in an Arab, or specifically Muslim majority state. I doubt many are jealous of their neighbours, especially the women, gays, Arab Christians... Arab Israelis are actually split on many key issues.

 

[Abraxas]

Yep, that will make things better. it always does.

 

[RustyNails]

Jerusalem is past the point of no return.

Why is E Jerusalem past the point of no return?

 

[nib95]

What can the UN do? Attempt again an outsiders solution (that worked in 47!)? Pass more condemnations? Induct Palestine (will won't change much)? Bring them to the ICJ? Lets ask the US how Nicaragua worked out for the court.

Condemning the settlements with the entire UN's enforceable backing. Sending UN aid groups and military to Palestine to assist with the humanitarian crisis, also indirectly preventing Israel the ability to further expand or destabilise. In the event of continued non-compliance, impose diplomatic or economic sanctions, employ arms embargo's and so on.

By the way, here is the list of UN resolutions the US has vetoed thus far, that were critical to Israel.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/UN/usvetoes.html

Condemning Israeli settlements Established Since 1967 as Illegal
S/2011/24 February 18, 2011

Calling Israel To Halt Gaza Operation
S/2006/878 November 11, 2006

Calling Israel To Halt Gaza Operation
S/2006/508 July 13, 2006

Calling Israel To Halt Gaza Operation
S/2004/783 October 5, 2004

Condemning Israel for Killing Hamas Leader Ahmed Yassin
S/2004/240 March 25, 2004

Seeking to Bar Israel from Extending Security Fence
S/2003/980 October 14, 2003

Demanding Israel Halt Threats to Expel Yasser Arafat
S/2003/891 September 16, 2003

Condemning Israeli Killing UN employees of World Food Programme
S/2002/1385 December 20, 2002

Demanding Immediate Cessation of Israeli-Palestinian Violence
S/2001/1199 December 14, 2001

Calling for UN Observers Force in West Bank & Gaza
S/2001/270 March 27, 2001

Demanding Israel Cease Construction of Settlements in East Jerusalem
S/1997/241 March 21, 1997

Calling Israeli authorities to Refrain from All Settlement Activity
S/1997/199 March 7, 1997

Confirming Israeli Expropriation of Land in East Jerusalem as Invalid
S/1995/394 May 17, 1995

Commission to Investigate Murder of Seven Palestinian Workers
S/21326 May 31, 1990

Deploring Israeli Policies and Practices in the Occupied Territories
S/20945/Rev.1 November 7, 1989

Condemning Israeli Policies and Practices in the Occupied Territories
S/20677 June 9, 1989

Deploring Israeli Policies and Practices in the Occupied Territories
S/20463 February 17, 1989

Deploring Israeli Attack Against Lebanese Territory on December 9
S/20322 December 14, 1988

Condemning Invasion by Israeli Forces of Southern Lebanon
S/19868 May 10, 1988

Urging Israel to Abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention
S/19780 April 15, 1988

Calling on Israel to Accept Applicability of 4th Geneva Convention
S/19466 February 1, 1988

Deploring Repeated Israeli Attacks Against Lebanese Territory
S/19434 January 18, 1988

Condemning Israeli Interception of Libyan Plane
S/17796/Rev.1 February 6, 1986

Calling on Israel to Respect Muslim Holy Places
S/17769/Rev.1 January 30, 1986

Condemning Israeli Practices Against Civilians in Southern Lebanon
S/17730/Rev.2 January 17, 1986

Deploring Repressive Measures by Israel Against Arab Population
S/17459 September 13, 1985

Condemning Israeli Actions Against Civilians in Southern Lebanon
S/17000 March 12, 1985

Calls for Israel Respect of Lebanese Sovereignty & Independence
S/16732 September 6, 1984

Determining Israeli Settlement Construction as Illegal
S/15895 August 2, 1983

Condemning Israel for Not Implementing Res.'s 516 & 517
S/15347/Rev.1 August 6, 1982

Demanding Immediate Cessation of Hostilities in Lebanon
S/15255/Rev 2 June 26, 1982

Calling on Israel to Withdraw Forces from Lebanon
S/15185 June 8, 1982

Condemning Aggression on the Temple Mount
S/14985 April 20, 1982

Denouncing Israeli Contravention of Fourth Geneva Convention
S/14943 April 2, 1982

Calling for Nullification of Israeli Occupation of Golan Heights
S/14832/Rev.1 January 20, 1982

Exercise of Inalienable Rights by the Palestinians
S/13911 April 30, 1980

Affirming Palestinian Right of Return and Sovereignty in Palestine
S/12119 June 29, 1976

Calling on Israel to Uphold Protection of Holy Places
S/12022 March 25, 1976

Calling on Israel to Withdraw from All Palestinian Territories
S/11940 January 26, 1976

Condemning Israel for Air Strikes Against Lebanon
S/11898 December 8, 1975

Deploring Israel's Continued Occupation of Palestinian Territories
S/10974 July 26, 1973

Complaint over Israeli Aggression Against Lebanon
S/10784 September 10, 1972

 

[RustyNails]

I listened to an interview of Reza Aslan today. Basically he seems to have concluded that the chance of a 2 state solution is dead.

If that is dead . . . what is left? Apartheid? A government of national unity? (Good luck with that one.)


A phrase used which seems appropriate: There is the land, a Jewish state, and Democracy . . . but you can't have all 3.

I'm sure Reza Aslan said it in resignation at the recent turn of events, but Palestinian people have been through lot worse. The nakba, 1st and 2nd intifadahs, numerous Israeli military operations etc. Two State solution is the only solution.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

I can't see the Palestinians agreeing to this, and I can't say I really blame them.

The will (and have for the most part)

And what is the problem that you wouldn't blame them for. Some mythical agreement where everybody gets what they want.

(I imagine your opposition comes from your desire for a one state solution)

Arab/Palestinian citizens of Israel should continue maintaining their incredibly high
birthrates (relative to other Israelis). Eventually, they will have their majority. I'd
like to see what the Israeli government decides to do at that point, short of straight
up apartheid (even more so than today) and/or genocide.

People keep literally advocating what radicals in Israel are laughed at for saying. (5th column). And arabs in israel will never surpass jews in the 67 borders.

 

[hukasmokincaterpillar]

I listened to an interview of Reza Aslan today. Basically he seems to have concluded that the chance of a 2 state solution is dead.

If that is dead . . . what is left? Apartheid? A government of national unity? (Good luck with that one.)

BDS. Israeli de Klerk isn't walking through that door, and Palestinian Mandela is dead or in prison.

Liberal Zionists refuse to accept the colonial character of '48. They are rightly derided as hypocrites by the Greater Israel right wing. So nothing will change until the political space is opened up by an ostensibly post colonial West. That means Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions.

 

[JordanN]

Why is E Jerusalem past the point of no return?

Half the city is integrated with what is already Israel's capital. Seems like a financial nightmare to reverse all that.

I also worry to what would happened to the religious/historical landmarks. It has been under good hands when Israel controls it. How can we be sure Hamas or another Palestinian radical wont try to pull off another Bamiyan?

 

[Chichikov]

They should definitely not have a military. There's nothing to justify it and would only cause more problems (Hamas with tanks? Hell no).

Jerusalem is past the point of no return. Though I do think Palestinians should be given special status to live and freely travel there because legally, Jerusalem was suppose to be a "world" city.

There's nothing to justify them having the right pretty much every country in the world has?

 

[hukasmokincaterpillar]

I'm sure Reza Aslan said it in resignation at the recent turn of events, but Palestinian people have been through lot worse. The nakba, 1st and 2nd intifadahs, numerous Israeli military operations etc. Two State solution is the only solution.

It's a cruel fiction. Has been since '67.

Tareq Abbas, son of the Palestinian president, told me: "The Israelis haven't adhered to Oslo, which was supposed to be a road to an independent state; they didn't give us a state and they didn't even give us the road to it, while always undermining... the Palestinian Authority. I used to support the two-state solution and if it happens, I will accept it, but I believe they will not give us a state so the best solution for us is to ask for our human and social rights and be citizens in one democratic country."

 

[RustyNails]

Latest: Israeli Colonel says they are "preparing for escalation"

 

[Chichikov]

Half the city is integrated with what is already Israel's capital. Seems like a financial nightmare to reverse all that.

I also worry to what would happened to the religious landmarks. It has been under good hands when Israel controls it. How can we be sure Hamas or another Palestinian radical wont try to pull off another Bamiyan?

They have been under the control of the Jordanian Waqf.
And if we're going to play the what if game, I would like to remind you that the Jewish Underground were planning to blow up the dome of the rock.

 

[JordanN]

There's nothing to justify them having the right pretty much every country in the world has?

When you elect Hamas, you renounce your right to an army. They can have a police force but not full blown toys that can easily start WW3.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

Condemning the settlements with the entire UN's enforceable backing. Sending UN aid groups and military to Palestine to assist with the humanitarian crisis, also indirectly preventing Israel the ability to further expand or destabilise. In the event of continued non-compliance, impose diplomatic or economic sanctions, employ arms embargo's and so on.

By the way, here is the list of UN resolutions the US has vetoed thus far, that were critical to Israel.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/UN/usvetoes.html

Condemning and deploring do nothing to help the Palestinians (how many atrocities has the UN condemned?). UN aid groups have to get permission and work with the hosts which would be Israel, so Israel holds that veto (and there are already UN groups in these areas http://www.ochaopt.org/). Arms embargo has happened when and been effective when? And Israel has an arms industry. Economic sanctions are never going to be effective because what are you going to embargo? Tel aviv products? Goes against the condemnation of collective punishment. Just the west bank products? hasn't done much and there is a large market in Israel and you'd also be hurting Palestinian industry and workers.

My point isn't that these are bad things to want just that they're ineffective and won't change the facts on the ground. The issue will be solved by the two parties wanting a solution and NOT a global PR campaign (by either side with the Israeli astroturf or disseminating story after story of ever Palestinian hurt and killed by Israeli)

 

[RustyNails]

Half the city is integrated with what is already Israel's capital. Seems like a financial nightmare to reverse all that.

Don't care if Israel goes into a financial ruin. It's Israel's problem. They shouldn't have moved to Jerusalem to establish a capital against all UN resolutions and common sense. Disengage.