Support NeoGAF

[viveks86]

This is what I'm wondering too. Being able to slightly change your viewpoint based on eye movement would be fantastic. But I wonder how much of a strain that will be since eye movement can be fast and twitchy.

I don't know what it's called in this particular field, but my guess is that 'Dead band' calibration would be able to accommodate for twitchy movement. Eye tracking has been around for long enough that they would be accommodating for such fluctuations. I'm really hoping that the eye tracking stuff Sony showed is related to VR. It adds a whole new dimension to the input! I can't wait for the first VR based online staring contest!

 

[PGamer]

I wonder if eye tracking is being incorporated into VR. They showed that at VGX and haven't heard anything since. May be they are also tracking where you are looking within the virtual space to add depth of field effects like this.

http://a.pomf.se/s986r.gif

Spoiler

One can dream

Eye tracking being incorporated is pretty unlikely at this point. Michael Abrash recently claimed that it's far from solved so unless there's some pretty rapid progress in that area as of late or Sony turns out to be way ahead of Valve/Oculus I'm not seeing it.

 

[vpance]

Eye tracking being incorporated is pretty unlikely at this point. Michael Abrash recently claimed that it's far from solved so unless there's some pretty rapid progress in that area as of late or Sony turns out to be way ahead of Valve/Oculus I'm not seeing it.

Well they made a point to show it on the Spike TV launch show... and "working with NASA" to boot

I think I'd be disappointed if they didn't at least build in small high FPS cameras into the unit. The issue is largely software based anyways, and at least the device would be somewhat future proofed if they haven't figured it out yet.

 

[viveks86]

Eye tracking being incorporated is pretty unlikely at this point. Michael Abrash recently claimed that it's far from solved so unless there's some pretty rapid progress in that area as of late or Sony turns out to be way ahead of Valve/Oculus I'm not seeing it.

Oh! We are so slow! I want it now! :/

I guess it will go into my list of things I want to experience in gaming before I get too old!

 

[StuBurns]

Eye tracking is one thing, wait till there's perfect eye tracking met with retina projection. It's going to be truly Matrix shit.

 

[androvsky]

I wonder if sending a rendered image to the headset that has Z data for each pixel would allow the headset to apply depth of field adjustments in response to eye tracking without having to update the entire scene on the PS4.

 

[Sepp]

Cool, the only problem is the PS4.

Lets hope it will be compatible with PC as well.

 

[Graphics Horse]

I wonder if sending a rendered image to the headset that has Z data for each pixel would allow the headset to apply depth of field adjustments in response to eye tracking without having to update the entire scene on the PS4.

That sounds like it would make me feel ill.

The Light Field Array is the best tech for this... eventually. Letting you eye refocus naturally on different parts of the scene. Means you have to render the whole scene hundreds of times, but I'm sure there's a lot of optimisation that can be done.

 

[iceatcs]

Eye tracking being incorporated is pretty unlikely at this point. Michael Abrash recently claimed that it's far from solved so unless there's some pretty rapid progress in that area as of late or Sony turns out to be way ahead of Valve/Oculus I'm not seeing it.

They have done on eye tracking in the R&D.
http://www.gametrailers.com/videos/0hu5h0/playstation-4-magic-labs-behind-the-scenes
around 1m10s.

I dunno if it will going to be in VR (small space, too much data) but it think it best at camera only.

 

[vpance]

Once they can reliably track the eyes, the flood gates are opened, saving huge amounts of processing power not having to render stuff in perfect detail outside of our foveal vision.

Sony have the patents (SCEA ), using high FPS cameras and the help of magnetized contact lenses to detect the rapid shifts of the eye during a saccade.

 

[viveks86]

Once they can reliably track the eyes, the flood gates are opened, saving huge amounts of processing power not having to render stuff in perfect detail outside of our foveal vision.

Sony have the patents (SCEA ), using high FPS cameras and the help of magnetized contact lenses to detect the rapid shifts of the eye during a saccade.

I just learnt a new word! Thanks!

 

[Sepp]

Saccades are the fastest movements produced by the human body. The peak angular speed of the eye during a saccade reaches up to 900°/s in humans; in some monkeys, peak speed can reach 1000°/s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saccade

Too fast, sorry.

Edit: The exact position of the eye is not really needed though. A good estimate should already help.

 

[Zaptruder]

Once they can reliably track the eyes, the flood gates are opened, saving huge amounts of processing power not having to render stuff in perfect detail outside of our foveal vision.

Sony have the patents (SCEA ), using high FPS cameras and the help of magnetized contact lenses to detect the rapid shifts of the eye during a saccade.

Given the rapidity at which the eye saccades and the distances those saccades cover, it's not entirely certain that we can save much processing power by adaptive resolution rendering - the eye detection to adaptive resolution changes would have to be perfect without latency for it to work well.

And it's not like resolution is the be all and end all of processing issues - beyond fill rate, there's a huge amount of processing that can't be made more efficient by resolution changes.

Still, you'd want to have eye-tracking, if only because you can do really interesting things with it like having NPCs react to your eye gaze, or having UI elements activated by gaze.

 

[vpance]

I just learnt a new word! Thanks!

I learned it myself just a few weeks ago, lol

 

[Sepp]

And it's not like resolution is the be all and end all of processing issues - beyond fill rate, there's a huge amount of processing that can't be made more efficient by resolution changes.

Still, you'd want to have eye-tracking, if only because you can do really interesting things with it like having NPCs react to your eye gaze, or having UI elements activated by gaze.

Both true.

I would also like to be able to look at other people in the virtual world (I mean really look at).

 

[viveks86]

Saccades are the fastest movements produced by the human body. The peak angular speed of the eye during a saccade reaches up to 900°/s in humans; in some monkeys, peak speed can reach 1000°/s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saccade

Too fast, sorry.

Edit: The exact position of the eye is not really needed though. A good estimate should already help.

Exactly. And I think such an approximation could be used quite well for minor changes in camera perspectives and related effects. Combined with head tracking, this could make a big difference in the degree of presence achieved.

 

[vpance]

Given the rapidity at which the eye saccades and the distances those saccades cover, it's not entirely certain that we can save much processing power by adaptive resolution rendering - the eye detection to adaptive resolution changes would have to be perfect without latency for it to work well.

And it's not like resolution is the be all and end all of processing issues - beyond fill rate, there's a huge amount of processing that can't be made more efficient by resolution changes.

Still, you'd want to have eye-tracking, if only because you can do really interesting things with it like having NPCs react to your eye gaze, or having UI elements activated by gaze.

Maybe it wouldn't necessarily have to be a shift in resolution? Take GG's frame "interpolation" method for example. Render the foveal portion of the frame with full lines of pixels while using the method on the periphery. Would it turn 30 to 60 FPS all the time? Maybe not but at least there would be less to nip and tuck from other aspects in the game's visuals.

 

[pswii60]

Well, these are the PS4 games that have, or have announced they will have Rift support:

Daylight
Dying Light
EverQuest Next
Minecraft
Project CARS
Strike Suit Zero
War Thunder
The Witness

So most, or all of those will probably support it. Sony will have some stuff, and third parties will support it.
I'd say it'll have plenty for year one.

Here's some wild speculation about the 14/15 VR support:

Until Dawn
DriveClub
Everybody's Gone to the Rapture
Alien: Isolation
Outlast
SOMA
No Man's Sky

Plenty for year one? You kidding? Few people are going to invest crazy money for a VR add on accessory just for the support in those indie games. It needs a killer app, or it'll go the way of Move - and that was an insanely cheap add on.

 

[StuBurns]

Plenty for year one? You kidding? Few people are going to invest crazy money for a VR add on accessory just for the support in those indie games. It needs a killer app, or it'll go the way of Move - and that was an insanely cheap add on.

What is a killer app for VR?

 

[Soi-Fong]

What is a killer app for VR?

Eve Valkyrie is one that I'm thinking of.

 

[pswii60]

What is a killer app for VR?

Something that'll get the mainstream excited and willing to part with that kind of cash. Obviously. I'm not sure how else you want me to answer your question? But it won't be any of the games in your list.

 

[POWERSPHERE]

Another platform supporting a version of the tech on an unrelated platform opens up a port possibility and another revenue stream. Great news for devs.

 

[LegendofDragoonLives]

Anyone think one of the 20 games on the first year is VR-only (based) game they will announce in a few days?!

 

[StuBurns]

Something that'll get the mainstream excited and willing to part with that kind of cash. Obviously. I'm not sure how else you want me to answer your question? But it won't be any of the games in your list.

If you don't know what it is, how do you know what it isn't?

The only other major thing that I didn't mention, because I really can't justify the speculation, but I think if anything is going to be Sony VR killer app, it will be Media Molecule's project.

 

[pswii60]

Anyone think one of the 20 games on the first year is VR-only (based) game they will announce in a few days?!

I think you need to let that '20 games' thing go. It was meaningless, as was the similar statement from MS.

If you don't know what it is, how do you know what it isn't?

Oh please, come on.

 

[Sepp]

What is a killer app for VR?

Every game where no large disagreement exists between visually perceived movement and the vestibular system's sense of movement.

 

[ZehDon]

What is a killer app for VR?

The price tag.

Seriously though, easy answer: Minecraft: Playstation 4 Edition. I'd quadruple dip for that, no question. Infinite worlds, day one VR support, all online features present and accounted for - you wouldn't be able to keep the thing on shelves.

 

[StuBurns]

Every game where no large disagreement exists between visually perceived movement and the vestibular system's sense of movement.

That's an interesting concept, effective VR might be the killer app in of itself. Just the experience of being elsewhere, regardless of where or what you're doing there, might be enough.

Oh please, come on.

What? Do you have some track record of intuiting mega hits? Did you know MonHun would save PSP in Japan? That Nintendogs would resonate so heavily? Angry Birds? Minecraft?

Personally, I don't know a killer app when I see it, do you?

 

[VanCityGamer]

if Sony VR exist, likely won't be this year. Next year March earliest.

Seems like a strange thing to say with such authority. I'd expect it before the end of this year. And it's really not an "if" it exists at this point.

 

[iceatcs]

Seems like a strange thing to say with such authority. I'd expect it before the end of this year. And it's really not an "if" it exists at this point.

Misword, I mean If Sony VR announce this GDC.

Still no official yet and could be different kind,

 

[pswii60]

What? Do you have some track record of intuiting mega hits? Did you know MonHun would save PSP in Japan? That Nintendogs would resonate so heavily? Angry Birds? Minecraft?

Personally, I don't know a killer app when I see it, do you?

You're easy to wind up! None of those games in your list are exclusively or favourably VR is my point. My supreme killer app expertise tells me that it'll be something that's been built from the ground up with VR in mind, rather than it being a patched in job on an existing game. Sony of course needs to lead the way and show a major commitment to the device with first party projects, to ensure third parties will follow.

 

[rjinaz]

Seems like a strange thing to say with such authority. I'd expect it before the end of this year. And it's really not an "if" it exists at this point.

Eh I think it's still an "if". Nobody at Sony has confirmed it exists in any way.

The writing is on the wall of course, but "if" is still valid until we get official word.

 

[Sepp]

That's an interesting concept, effective VR might be the killer app in of itself. Just the experience of being elsewhere, regardless of where or what you're doing there, might be enough.

Well movement should be ok, sudden changes in direction however are problematic, or spinning motions (like turning around with the contoller and not with the body).

So being fixed in a chair with a high level of intertia is good, like a car, plane or space ship.

Or standing and changing direction with your body, and moving with the controller (again, not too abrupt).

 

[Peeete]

What is a killer app for VR?

Everything. Even Home would be fun in VR.

 

[StuBurns]

You're easy to wind up! None of those games in your list are exclusively or favourably VR is my point. My supreme killer app expertise tells me that it'll be something that's been built from the ground up with VR in mind, rather than it being a patched in job on an existing game. Sony of course needs to lead the way and show a major commitment to the device with first party projects, to ensure third parties will follow.

I wasn't wound up, I just wanted to get some sort of logic from your stance, and now you've given some.

I don't think Sony, or anyone really, is expecting VR's Mario 64 day one, but VR isn't going to be a fifty million selling thing right out the gate, this is going to be a slow climb, with people getting on board over time.

The list you quoted isn't going to get a massive amount of people to adapt VR, but if it gets five million PS4 owners to buy it, that will be more than enough to get the ball rolling.

 

[Maggots]

I guess devs will just have to tone down some of the more computationally expensive visual effects. So the VR games won't have as flashy of graphics but they'll be way more immersive.

...so like a nintendo game then

 

[VanCityGamer]

Eh I think it's still an "if". Nobody at Sony has confirmed it exists in any way.

The writing is on the wall of course, but "if" is still valid until we get official word.

If it's an "if", it's about the smallest "if" you'll ever see. There's been enough credible insiders speaking about it, that I'd say it's about 99% guaranteed to exist.

Misword, I mean If Sony VR announce this GDC.

Sorry, I still don't get what you're saying. I don't understand how you can be so confident that it will arrive next March "at the earliest". I predict it'll be out this fall.

 

[rjinaz]

If it's an "if", it's about the smallest "if" you'll ever see. There's been enough credible insiders speaking about it, that I'd say it's about 99% guaranteed to exist.

Look, I'm not saying it exists, but it exists. imnotsayingitsaliensbutitsaliens.gif

Seriously though, you never know how these things will play out. Sony might decide to delay further or even ultimately scratch the whole thing. Until it is actually revealed, for all intents and purposes, it does not exist.This will be the third conference it was rumored to show up at, so I'm just remaining skeptical until it's actually revealed, that's all. And I really don't take insiders at their word, though I do enjoy reading what they share.

 

[serversurfer]

If you don't know what it is, how do you know what it isn't?

The only other major thing that I didn't mention, because I really can't justify the speculation, but I think if anything is going to be Sony VR killer app, it will be Media Molecule's project.

I'm thinking MM's new project may be a "VR construction kit," a la LBP, and possibly not even that structured. Bonus points if we can use it to make our own apartments in Virtual Home.

I haven't forgotten our other conversation; just wanna re-watch Abrash's presentation first, but I had to go to work.

 

[StuBurns]

I'm thinking MM's new project may be a "VR construction kit," a la LBP, and possibly not even that structured. Bonus points if we can use it to make our own apartments in Virtual Home.

I haven't forgotten our other conversation; just wanna re-watch Abrash's presentation first, but I had to go to work.

I do think Home is a likely candidate for VR actually.

MMs game though, yeah, they've said it will be fully playable with a DS4, people often call it LBP64 on here, myself included, but whatever the IP, I do think it will be that concept, PlayCreateShare, 3D platformer, in wood, not cloth/paper like LBP/Tearaway.

I'm sure it'll be stunning too.

And yeah, no rush on the Abrash debate, I'm sure this thread will be around all week.

 

[Quasar]

Eve Valkyrie is one that I'm thinking of.

Yeah. That and the other PC space games seem like killer apps to me. The teased EQ with Rift might be too.

 

[lemonade]

This is what I'm wondering too. Being able to slightly change your viewpoint based on eye movement would be fantastic. But I wonder how much of a strain that will be since eye movement can be fast and twitchy.

Kind of like playing bf4 on xbox one with the kinect. Moving left or right moves the players as well. Neat feature to have

 

[iceatcs]

If it's an "if", it's about the smallest "if" you'll ever see. There's been enough credible insiders speaking about it, that I'd say it's about 99% guaranteed to exist.



Sorry, I still don't get what you're saying. I don't understand how you can be so confident that it will arrive next March "at the earliest". I predict it'll be out this fall.

Ok If you want my reason.
I think it will be little while after the first official look because, e.g.
EyeToy -
1999 GDC - tech demo
2002 - PS Experience - named
2003 Oct - Release

Move -
2009 E3 - tech demo
2010 - GDC - named
2010 Sept - Release

We haven't see the tech demo yet. If they skip the tech demo stage, maybe we could get this year but I feel very unlikely.

 

[PGamer]

Well they made a point to show it on the Spike TV launch show... and "working with NASA" to boot

I think I'd be disappointed if they didn't at least build in small high FPS cameras into the unit. The issue is largely software based anyways, and at least the device would be somewhat future proofed if they haven't figured it out yet.

They have done on eye tracking in the R&D.
http://www.gametrailers.com/videos/0hu5h0/playstation-4-magic-labs-behind-the-scenes
around 1m10s.

I dunno if it will going to be in VR (small space, too much data) but it think it best at camera only.

Hmm, just rewatched that video. Totally forgot they demoed that tech. If I had to guess I would assume that there are issues with incorporating that tracking inside a headset and possibly problems with accuracy/precision to make it viable for VR. But who knows? Maybe Sony's got it figured out. I just can't see Abrash saying it's not ready for a 2015 VR headset if it was already displayed as being doable elsewhere.

 

[lightzGamin]

This is going to do to the playstation 4 what motion controls did to the Wii, insane popularity and $$$$$. If priced right ofc, coupled with great content and massive marketing.

 

[Ocaso]

What is a killer app for VR?

While I personally feel almost any game would be more awesome with VR than without, Oculus was definitely on the money demoing the Rift with a space sim. That's no longer a hugely popular genre, but a VR X-Wing game would be all kinds of awesome.

 

[boredandlazy]

While I personally feel almost any game would be more awesome with VR than without, Oculus was definitely on the money demoing the Rift with a space sim. That's no longer a hugely popular genre, but a VR X-Wing game would be all kinds of awesome.

Colony Wars?

 

[YuShtink]

Ok If you want my reason.
I think it will be little while after the first official look because, e.g.
EyeToy -
1999 GDC - tech demo
2002 - PS Experience - named
2003 Oct - Release

Move -
2009 E3 - tech demo
2010 - GDC - named
2010 Sept - Release

We haven't see the tech demo yet. If they skip the tech demo stage, maybe we could get this year but I feel very unlikely.

I agree with you. To all the people assuming that Sony's VR system will be out this fall, you have to consider the fact that since this conference isn't a big public livestream, Sony will be unveiling the device TO DEVELOPERS. You know, the people who have to decide whether or not they want to START developing for it. Now, it seems like there are at least a couple devs who have in fact been shown the device, so Sony probably already has some internal software in development. But it seems like the developer community at large hasn't seen it at all. And this isn't like the console itself where every developer under the sun already had developer kits and Sony was just unveiling it to the public.

 

[BloodMoney]

While I personally feel almost any game would be more awesome with VR than without, Oculus was definitely on the money demoing the Rift with a space sim. That's no longer a hugely popular genre, but a VR TIE Fighter game would be all kinds of awesome.

Agreed w/ edit. Rebel scum

 

[googleplex]

I agree with you. To all the people assuming that Sony's VR system will be out this fall, you have to consider the fact that since this conference isn't a big public livestream, Sony will be unveiling the device TO DEVELOPERS. You know, the people who have to decide whether or not they want to START developing for it. Now, it seems like there are at least a couple devs who have in fact been shown the device, so Sony probably already has some internal software in development. But it seems like the developer community at large hasn't seen it at all. And this isn't like the console itself where every developer under the sun already had developer kits and Sony was just unveiling it to the public.

I disagree because development has already started on the PC side with the Oculus DK1. People are already working out "best practices" for VR game development. Because of the architecture of the PS4 and that Sony VR kit wont be that radically different then the Oculus. Most of that early experimentation will carry over to the PS4.

I believe we'll get an initial reveal at GDC. A huge blowout at E3 and a release holiday 2014.