TheGreatMightyPoo
Banned
I know this isn't directly related but David Robinson going for 70 was the most embarrassing achievement in sports since Favre laid down for Strahan.
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ESPN Ranks LeBron as the #3 NBA Player All-Time. What say you?
- Thread starter GhostWriter24
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I know this isn't directly related but David Robinson going for 70 was the most embarrassing achievement in sports since Favre laid down for Strahan.
Locked Out
Banned
He'd be vilified for attempting to score in a game he was losing? OK. Lebron deserves the shit he gets for quitting on his team. Hell, he even quit on them in a game/series they ended up winning thanks to people on his team who weren't gigantic babies that give up when all looks lost.
I can't really talk bad on LeBron since he literally lead a bunch of scrubs to the Finals -twice, including that game where he literally scored all the points for the Cavs against the team that was a title favorite that year.
I also can't speak on Wilt because I didn't see him play, but something has to be said about the level of competition he was up against in that time. The league is much more athletic now than it was in the '60s.
I also can't speak on Wilt because I didn't see him play, but something has to be said about the level of competition he was up against in that time. The league is much more athletic now than it was in the '60s.
There were a lot of big men in the league by this time, and a lot of african americans too. League wasnt as good, but 50 points a game in a season is absolutely bonkers
And it wasnt like this was a common occurrence at the time that all superstars were accomplishing. He was literally the only one scoring as much as he was.
Only knock against him is lack of titles, But Lebron teaches us that Basketball is a team game, and Wilt didnt have good teammates
TheGreatMightyPoo
Banned
Don't feel badly for him, he still has the number 1 layup of all time.
LyleLanley
Banned
For trying to rack up absurd stats in a blowout of a game, yes.
Shpeshal Nick
aka Collingwood
Jordan no.1? All is right with the world.
But Kobe at 12 is still fucking beyond ridiculous.
But Kobe at 12 is still fucking beyond ridiculous.
Really don't understand the obsession with finals losses. If he was 2-2 instead of 2-4 would that somehow be better?
Jordan in his prime isn't beating the Warriors last year with that injury wrecked team. Or anyone with that first Cavs team. He does have some poor playoff series as well, but just looking at a finals loss and deciding that is a black mark seems absurd to me.
Jordan in his prime isn't beating the Warriors last year with that injury wrecked team. Or anyone with that first Cavs team. He does have some poor playoff series as well, but just looking at a finals loss and deciding that is a black mark seems absurd to me.
Ninja Scooter
Member
When you take efficiency into account LeBron is a better scorer than Kobe. PPG wise they are close and Bron does it much more efficiently. It's like having a player that hits 50 Homeruns a year while batting .240/.300/.475 or a player that hits 40 Homeruns a year while batting .290/.375/.500. I can tell you who I'd rather have.
HarryDemeanor
Member
I'm surprised he's not #1 then.
Dreams-Visions
Member
it's probably impacted by the fact that Tim played with 1 current HoFer in The Admiral and 2 future HoFers in Parker and Ginobli for his entire career.
It becomes a bit more difficult to grade his individual impact compared to someone like LBJ who only played with 2 future HoFers for 3 or 4 years of his 12 or 13 years in the NBA.
Imagine if LBJ got to play with players of Parker and young Ginobli's ability and a Bruce Bowen type guy for most of his career instead of just 3 or 4 campaigns. Conversely, project the number of NBA Finals appearnaces Tim Duncan experiences if Eric Snow, Drew Gooden, and Larry Hughes were his best complimentary players for 70% of his career. Makes it a bit more complicated, doesn't it.
TheGreatMightyPoo
Banned
He had to edit his list to pretend to throw people off his diarrhea scent.
Stabby McSter
Member
two has been announced
BennyBlanco
aka IMurRIVAL69
The eras were so different it's crazy to even compare them. Lists like this are fundamentally dumb.
Locked Out
Banned
And whoever gave him shit for doing it would be a fool. Just like anyone that forgives Lebron's childish behavior when he's losing is a fool. It's a huge character flaw that he either needs to change or accept that it makes him lesser than most of the other professionals on that list.
TheGreatMightyPoo
Banned
Nevermind.
BadAss2961
Member
LeBron's checked out and padded stats in big series before. You look like a Boston area fan, you should know this.
LeBron is pretty much the modern Wilt to me. But Wilt seemed more open about being a huge diva, and his stats are just crazy even when you consider how the game has changed.
You can say that about virtually any sport. It's nonetheless an entertaining mind game.
TheGreatMightyPoo
Banned
That's why all lists should cease to exist, they are all stupid.
Atomic Playboy
Member
The list isn't "Top Offensive Players of All Time," it's "Top Players of All Time." Of the five guys you listed, four were legitimate threats on the defensive end (Jordan and Duncan probably make a Top 5 defense list). Kobe was a hell of a scorer, but he never picked up the defense while trying to emulate MJ.
TheGreatMightyPoo
Banned
I still think Jordan was a better defender than Pippen or at least as good.
I won't make a thread though.
Well, "The Black Mamba" certainly disagrees with you, lol.
It plays to LeBron being really good at getting out of the East, but middling in the finals. Think of Kobe and Duncan having to run through much harder competition to make it to the finals, and they both have five rings.
Ninja Scooter
Member
That's purely something you can say in retrospect. Wilt was super defensive about it at the time, constantly whining about it and blaming teammates after losses. At one point, in his prime, the Warriors tried to trade Wilt to the Lakers and the Lakers said no because the players voted against trading for him. Says a lot about how he and his stats were viewed even then.
tiggerkiddo
Member
Top 3 might be high but I can see Top 5. Rating someone's greatness just off of championships is silly since it is a team game.
Bumblebeetuna
Member
Um, where is Dirk in that top 10? /Mavsfan
On a serious note, I have no problem with that ranking. But I only got into the NBA in the early 90s so I missed out on some of those guys. But he's easily the 2nd best player in have ever seen. Behind Jordan.
On a serious note, I have no problem with that ranking. But I only got into the NBA in the early 90s so I missed out on some of those guys. But he's easily the 2nd best player in have ever seen. Behind Jordan.
transience
Member
I'd put Lebron around 6 or 7. He could get to 3 with a few more years of greatness.
I never know what to do with Wilt or Russ though. Those guys played in a totally different NBA than we watch now.
If I had to rank:
1. Jordan
2. Jabbar
3. Shaq
4. Duncan
5. Chamberlain
6. Lebron
7. Magic
8. Bird
9. Russell
10. West
I'm sure I'll get pushback on this but fuck that. Shaq was ridiculous for several years, dominant in a way that even Jordan wasn't, and it's hard to judge Russell in today's NBA. I think he's basically Duncan but without the scoring.
I never know what to do with Wilt or Russ though. Those guys played in a totally different NBA than we watch now.
If I had to rank:
1. Jordan
2. Jabbar
3. Shaq
4. Duncan
5. Chamberlain
6. Lebron
7. Magic
8. Bird
9. Russell
10. West
I'm sure I'll get pushback on this but fuck that. Shaq was ridiculous for several years, dominant in a way that even Jordan wasn't, and it's hard to judge Russell in today's NBA. I think he's basically Duncan but without the scoring.
TheGreatMightyPoo
Banned
He probably shouldn't have predicted 100 championships then.
10+ seasons of what he's doing this year would make him the GOAT. Curry is currently breaking the game of basketball and his team is currently ahead of the 96 Bulls at the same time in the season. There would be no discussion. Above Jordan, and completely shits on Lebron.
I'd say 3 more seasons at this level would put him in top 10 conversation. Of course, when I say "at this level", I mean DOMINANCE. 70+ wins (or close to it), MVPs and championships in four straight seasons would be ABSURD.
considering how young the Golden State big three is right now, I think it's possible unless they, like... implode. Or forget how to shoot.
I aint a Lebron hater though. He needs to give me like 2-3 more elite years and he'll be up there. He's too young to be 3rd when he has so much more basketball left.
tiggerkiddo
Member
And? That means he isn't a top 5 player?
Ninja Scooter
Member
There's too many variables for me with the different eras that guys played in for me to really be able to rank guys, but if I were basing it on "I'm going to give you this guys career to build a team around" the group for me would be Magic, Bron, Bird, Jordan, Kareem, Duncan and Russell, in whatever order. Shaq is the toughest one because he was as dominant as there has ever been but he also had issues with conditioning and work ethic that those other guys didn't.
Bird is one of those players that had a shorter playing time than most because of his back but his peak was insane. Using Jordan has a comp for Bird, you'll find their per 100 possessions and per 36 minute numbers are eerily similar, with the exception of rebounds and points scored where the obvious player has the advantage in each. It really isn't until you get into those weird advance stats like WS/48 (which rates David Robinson 2nd and Jordan first), that you start to see a difference. Link below for the comp.
http://www.basketball-reference.com...um=1&p1=birdla01&p2=jordami01&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=
Same thing with Lebron and Jordan. Their numbers are really close and frankly, without looking at Jordan to compare to it (or Wilt/Kareem), his playoff per/100 numbers are absurd. He'll surpass Jordan's number of playoff games played this season and by the end of next year he'll most likely be equal with him on games played in about four or five less seasons.
I think as it stands, three is a great place for Lebron but you could easily make a case for swapping him and Magic. Basketball is a team sport and I think some of the teams he's carried into the finals were either absolutely shit, or marred with injuries (like last years team). Magic had the benefit of playing on those showtime Laker teams, which were some of the greatest teams ever assembled.
All in all, I think they had a really good list. You have to find a way to rate guys like Russell and Wilt appropriately considering the era in which they played. Russell had such a ridiculous athletic advantage over almost everyone from that era. I think he could actually be an incredible 4 even if he came around today.
Boombloxer
Member
This isn't true either. Kobe basically had to run the offense, score and guard the other teams best wing nightly for years. All in a conference with much better wings and stiffer competition overall. He has 12 all defensive team selections and even discounting the last 2, he's earned them.
Was his offense better than his D? Overall, yes. Was his D bad? No, not even close.
Kobe was an incredible defensive player and the numbers back this up. He wasn't Jordan, but Jordan was the 2nd best defensive player in his era (behind Scottie Pippen) and one of the best defensive shooting guards of all time. Plus, Jordan had the gift of being able to play in an era where he could be significantly more physical than Kobe had the opportunity to.
10+ seasons of what he's doing this year would make him the GOAT. Curry is currently breaking the game of basketball and his team is currently ahead of the 96 Bulls at the same time in the season. There would be no discussion. Above Jordan, and completely shits on Lebron.
I'd say 3 more seasons at this level would put him in top 10 conversation. Of course, when I say "at this level", I mean DOMINANCE. 70+ wins (or close to it), MVPs and championships in four straight seasons would be ABSURD.
considering how young the Golden State big three is right now, I think it's possible unless they, like... implode. Or forget how to shoot.
I didn't say a damn word about his team because I don't care about any of that.
Proelite
Member
He'll basically be unguarded. He can drive if Shaq closes out or shoot if Shaq backs off to prevent the drive.
Colonel Nasty
Member
Lebron is the Peyton Manning of BBall. All stats.
What does this even mean? Both have multiple rings, are regarded as having extremely high IQ's for their respective sports and have elevated the games of teammates.
How are they "all stats"?
Peyton is one of the three best QBs ever so...yeah I guess I'd agree with the first part.
Boombloxer
Member
For the list of guys to build a team around:
Magic
Kareem
Jordan
Russell
Kobe
Duncan
Bird
In that order. I need guys who can deliver in the clutch, and while everyone has their moments of failure, they succeeded more often.
At this point, you can look at overall body of work and say that more often than not, Bron doesn't get to the finish line.
The Phil argument applies to Jordan too.
Coaches matter, yes, but Phil has lost playoffs too.
It's about the players.
Colonel Nasty
Member
I think they're both great regular season players that'll hold a lot of records and not a lot of titles.
True Savior
Member
NBA started broadcasting in Portugal around 87-88. I was 2 so obviously I didnt watch it. I started to follow it since the last championship of the first three-peat. I was 7.
So, from my exposure to the NBA, he's the 2nd best player I've seen play. I kinda despised him, but my appreciation (on court) grew as time passed by. And last year he had the finals he needed to cement his stellar quality.
So, from my exposure to the NBA, he's the 2nd best player I've seen play. I kinda despised him, but my appreciation (on court) grew as time passed by. And last year he had the finals he needed to cement his stellar quality.
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