Support NeoGAF

[YankeeDonB]

This has seriously annoyed me. Especially coming from a series that has produced some pretty good female characters in the past.

I cringed too, but I think it's being taken a little bit out of context.

Right before this, Tabata was presented a slide that was supposed to have one complaint more common from Euro fans.

The slide actually had two complaints: Cindy too sexy and no female party members.

Tabata seemed to be trying to interpret this as one point, and his first read was basically: we don't like Cindy and we want more ladies. He was like what? And then, in an awkward attempt to provide some conversational cover, AO said the obviously off the cuff thing about how it might seem contradictory to want less sexy characters AND to want more ladies in the story.

True, this statement obviously suggests a misinterpretation of where the complaints were coming from (what? You want more ladies, but fewer bazongas? Make up your minds!), which is a little troubling. But I don't think either was trying to make a strong statement that women are only of value as sex objects. It was just an unscripted, awkward conversational pas de deux that was half joke, and maybe half an unintentional sign of mischaracterizing the fan base as predominately adolescent boys.

 

[kayos90]

Because what they work with the demo will also apply to the main game?

Seriously, using a demo as a beta to make the main game better, in what world would this be a bad thing?

The demo is a small segment of the main game and doesn't offer all of the gameplay mechanics that the main game does such as Magic and linked attacks. They're revamping a demo which is a cut representation of the main game in hopes that it'll apply to the entire game. That's not how it should be done.

This entire process is a broken piece of shit just like the devcycle for the game is.

 

[horsebird]

It really wasn't negative at all


http://gematsu.com/2015/04/final-fa...full-report-episode-duscae-2-0-coming-mid-may

It just seems like they want to get the base mechanics and gameplay at a level that people are really satisfied with. The combat seemed to be the main issue that people had. And that seem to largely stem from how long battles took, which Tabata said they're addressing.

I guess they just want to show fans they're listening to their feedback. I guess I understand the benefit of updating the demo. The idea that the game is still a work in progress is unsettling, though.

You sure you should be encouraging people not to buy a game that is probably going to just barely make back its investment?

If you want FF to continue on consoles, you want MORE people buying the game, not less. What that means is character designs like Cindy are no-go. There's a reason why the comic book movies and tv shows are not lifting their female character costumes straight from the comic books, because those designs are dumb and pandering, and they don't sell to women. FF13-2 suffered a sharp dip in sales in Japan partly because the female audience declined significantly between 13 and 13-2. The reasons for lack of female interest in the sequel could be many, but I can't imagine character design like Cindy help increase female interest.

I'm not going to shell out for this game until it hits 20 dollars or less, and probably going to buy used instead of new so that SE doesn't get my money. Chances are I might skip it altogether. Before the demo, before the blowout, before Cidney, and before Tabata, I had contemplated getting a PS4 for this game. Is it an overreaction? When the designs for Star Ocean, the designs for Fire Emblem x SMT, the designs for Fire Emblem IF, the obligatory loli design for Xenoblade X, the horrible loli Watson in Grand Ace Attorney—they all feature bad female character designs, and we're overreacting when the so-called "fantasy based on reality" rpg couldn't come up with a better character design for a female mechanic? Are we overreacting if we're simply just tired of dealing with this shit?

Cidney's not even a main character, though. I have my doubts that someone would earnestly boycott the game for her existence IF the game turns out to be pretty good otherwise. Could one not make the argument that the male cast are draws for a female audience?

It sounds like you have a problem with JRPG character design in general - possibly Japanese attitudes towards women in general - since those games tend to be rife with tropes that I agree can be pretty awful. Your frustration is totally understandable and I can relate on some levels. But Cidney? She's just an NPC, she doesn't factor into the plot.

 

[The Last One]

So only a trailer at E3? Fine as long as we see some new stuff.

Don't worry, at gamescon they'll start to show the things they shouldn't have.

 

[sensui-tomo]

I've seen terrible/pandering designs/characters in my final fantasies before, dont remember the outrage over this character.

everyone who has an issue with cidney better not have a copy of FF9 /sarcasm overload

 

[SPAW]

Right this is pretty much preaching to the choir.

Even "skewed samples" can give rise to important inferences: what this survey can say is whether the core supporters are aboard with the new changes.

 

[InsaneZero]

I guess they just want to show fans they're listening to their feedback. I guess I understand the benefit of updating the demo. The idea that the game is still a work in progress is unsettling, though.


Cidney's not even a main character, though. I have my doubts that someone would earnestly boycott the game for her existence IF the game turns out to be pretty good otherwise. Could one not make the argument that the male cast are draws for a female audience?

It sounds like you have a problem with JRPG character design in general - possibly Japanese attitudes towards women in general - since those games tend to be rife with tropes that I agree can be pretty awful. Your frustration is totally understandable and I can relate on some levels. But Cidney? She's just an NPC, she doesn't factor into the plot.

If she's not a significant character, then that would beg the question of why she's being featured in so many promotional materials. The obvious answer to that question highlights the kind of attitude that people are getting frustrated with.

 

[Felessan]

Was the feedback so negative that they felt a need to patch a demo? This isn't coming out until 2017, is it?

This is a playtest demo - they want to gather feedback on weak point of design (mainly battle system and stuff), make adjustments and see whether adjusted thing received better or not. Adjustment will be in the final game as well, so not so much of a double work.
Blizzard even have separate PTR just for this purpose, to get feedback on new features prior to release.

 

[Zomba13]

>Top NA complaint
Noctis' voice is too deep -- sounds like Batman. Players felt they weren't able to connect with him since he looks like a young guy, and doesn't sound that way. The Director stated that he wanted to include voiceover in the demo, but timing was tight so by the time they realized the voice directing wasn't what they wanted, it was already late into the schedule, etc. The final game already has different voice acting.

I thought that too. It didn't match. Like Noctis was trying to be a hard ass Batman tough guy and not talking like he normally would. The other guys voices were fine though.

 

[theofficefan99]

The demo is a small segment of the main game and doesn't offer all of the gameplay mechanics that the main game does such as Magic and linked attacks. They're revamping a demo which is a cut representation of the main game in hopes that it'll apply to the entire game. That's not how it should be done.

This entire process is a broken piece of shit just like the devcycle for the game is.

I don't see the problem here. They offered a demo, and then took fan feedback into consideration in order to have a more clear direction in the home stretch of development, creating the best game possible within the allotted time remaining.

 

[skLaFarebear]

Noctis's voice was perfect. If I knew about the survey I would've put that as being my favorite part.

 

[ROBOKITTYZILLA]

I'd like to give this a shot once they update the combat and camera. I got bored and lost interest immediately after the combat tutorial. Really disappointed.

I might try to slog through the entire demo at some point before the update. Maybe I just need to spend some more time with it.

 

[Wensih]

The Director stated "she's actually not meant to be an erotic character", but that she's supposed to be an energetic outdoorsy character and she's a mechanic, so the dress is normal.​

ayy

I see there going for the Riku's thong look again.

 

[theofficefan99]

If she's not a significant character, then that would beg the question of why she's being featured in so many promotional materials. The obvious answer to that question highlights the kind of attitude that people are getting frustrated with.

It's only because Square Enix has been eerily evading spoiler-y material and has primarily focused on Duscae footage since September.

 

[Wensih]

The Director stated "she's actually not meant to be an erotic character", but that she's supposed to be an energetic outdoorsy character and she's a mechanic, so the dress is normal.​

I see there going for the Rikku's thong look again.

 

[RurouniZel]

I'm glad they're updating the demo (I didn't finish it because I had some issues with the control/feel of it). As far as the Cidney debate goes, I feel they should change the outfit, or at the very least give her a bloody t-shirt to cover the bikini top. Would still be mad sexy and less pandering.

Like, there's nothing wrong with a female character being sexy, like, ever. Or males for that matter. That's perfectly fine. It's when the outfit is pander-rific in a way that feels completely out of place (for example, a mechanic wearing an outfit that most actual mechanics would not wear on the job) that eyebrows are raised. Give her a t-shirt and maybe some baggy pants while we're at it and she'd still be sexy as hell and look less like a "Hey boys, you like our game, riiiiiiiight?" character.

 

[SolidSnakex]

If she's not a significant character, then that would beg the question of why she's being featured in so many promotional materials. The obvious answer to that question highlights the kind of attitude that people are getting frustrated with.

Has she really been featured in so much promotional material? She was only unveiled in December, and we'd seen numerous trailers and demos before then. In the Duscae demo she's a sub-character, which is why she's given some attention. But in XV proper, she isn't a major player. She's just a mechanic that works on your car.

 

[The Smoking Bun]

Is Mr. Tabata even aware that Feminism is a thing and there has been a movement for more "respectful" portrayal of women in all media?
Maybe he's an old school guy, drives a Model T and doesn't know any better or he's pandering to Otaku's to couldn't give less of a damn about women empowerment
I think this is the first time a Japanese dev has been called out on such a thing and they don't know how to react

I like Cindy's design. I don't like how SE has been making excuses for questions revolving around female characters like with the all male party and now Cindy's design. Just say it was a design you all liked and wanted on her and move on.

I would respect them if they did that, admit that you wanted a digital Megan Fox to bend over a Car's engine while everyone else ogles her
I would then refuse to purchase their game but that's another story

 

[skLaFarebear]

I like Cindy's design. I don't like how SE has been making excuses for questions revolving around female characters like with the all male party and now Cindy's design. Just say it was a design you all liked and wanted on her and move on.

Has she really been featured in so much promotional material? She was only unveiled in December, and we'd seen numerous trailers and demos before then. In the Duscae demo she's a sub-character, which is why she's given some attention. But in XV proper, she isn't a major player. She's just a mechanic that works on your car.

I didn't even know who she was or what she looked like till I got to the end of the demo.

 

[GunBR]

Is Mr. Tabata even aware that Feminism is a thing and there has been a movement for more "respectful" portrayal of women in all media?

I doubt that this is a big thing in Japan

 

[Ray Down]

If she's not a significant character, then that would beg the question of why she's being featured in so many promotional materials. The obvious answer to that question highlights the kind of attitude that people are getting frustrated with.

Is she in a lot?

Like the Jump Festa trailer & the launch trailer for the demo, what other material does she appear in?

And of course they are going to show her, the demo about fixing the car and she happens to be the mechanic. I doubt she has any really significance to the story at all aside from this (is the demo stuff even going to be in the main game?) and upgrading your car.

 

[Mr. RHC]

Is the main complaint about Cindy that she is a character showing too much skin or is it about that a mechanic wouldn't look like this or is it about that people think that the male developers are "lol Japan" backwards sexists or is it about that female characters shouldn't be reduced to their sexuality just for the sake of pandering to a demographic?

Just curious...

 

[Vincent Grayson]

that defeats the fucking purpose as well. Most people that complained are people that enjoyed the diversity in casts in FF games and the interactions that provided

Luckily, all of those FF games still exist (and really fucking easy to get).

I don't understand why anyone is begrudging them their desire to tell a specific story about this group of guys on a journey together.

 

[The Smoking Bun]

I doubt that this is a big thing in Japan

Maybe that's the root of the problem. In an increasingly globalized the world the Japanese Government/Public is increasingly insular and at times hostile to western ideals.
Though it's a bit sad that people may have to be taught why a Mechanic having her tits hanging out is a problem.

Like would Tabata be okay if Cindy was his Wife or Daughter and spoke to customers at her garage dressed like that? [This is a very Indian thing to say btw]
Now if he was perfectly okay with the above then I would literally have nothing else to add since it's the environment he grew up in and is projecting it into his work

For fuck sakes it's 2015 and developers still don't know how to deal with female characters (ubisoft and square especially).

I'm wondering if Square should get a pass for this though, then again they shouldn't sell to western audiences if they can't accept western ideals

 

[DarkLordMalik]

I see there going for the Riku's thong look again.

I see there going for the Rikku's thong look again.

Just to update you, the part about her dress being normal for a mechanic was never said. It was just made up by those who originally shared the translation. Check out the updated OP.

 

[10k]

For fuck sakes it's 2015 and developers still don't know how to deal with female characters (ubisoft and square especially).

 

[horsebird]

Is the main complaint about Cindy that she is a character showing too much skin or is it about that a mechanic wouldn't look like this or is it about that people think that the male developers are "lol Japan" backwards sexists or is it about that female characters shouldn't be reduced to their sexuality just for the sake of pandering to a demographic?

Just curious...

All of it. With Anita's work along with general increased awareness concerning gender issues, people are increasingly aware of the image of female characters in video games and that much more vocal.

Is Mr. Tabata even aware that Feminism is a thing and there has been a movement for more "respectful" portrayal of women in all media?
Maybe he's an old school guy, drives a Model T and doesn't know any better or he's pandering to Otaku's to couldn't give less of a damn about women empowerment
I think this is the first time a Japanese dev has been called out on such a thing and they don't know how to react

I would respect them if they did that, admit that you wanted a digital Megan Fox to bend over a Car's engine while everyone else ogles her
I would then refuse to purchase their game but that's another story

The feminist movement is largely seen as a joke/completely ignored by the masses in Asia. The fact that they're addressing this at all is actually a pretty significant stride.

 

[RurouniZel]

Is the main complaint about Cindy that she is a character showing too much skin or is it about that a mechanic wouldn't look like this or is it about that people think that the male developers are "lol Japan" backwards sexists or is it about that female characters shouldn't be reduced to their sexuality just for the sake of pandering to a demographic?

Just curious...

Can't speak for everyone, but for me it's that the outfit looks like it was designed to pander to a demographic rather than an outfit that is designed to be worn as an actual work outfit.

For example, if she was shown wearing a slightly more realistic outfit while working (like that earlier sketch a few pages back) and then this outfit outside of work, the latter would still be pandering but at least it would be slightly more believable. But trying to pass of the design as "normal for a mechanic" is just plain dishonest to many of us.

 

[The Smoking Bun]

All of it. With Anita's work along with general increased awareness concerning gender issues, people are increasingly aware of the image of female characters in video games and that much more vocal.


The feminist movement is largely seen as a joke/completely ignored by the masses in Asia. The fact that they're addressing this at all is actually a pretty significant stride.

Not sure about India since the politicians here always try to sell women empowerment as their top priority even though the results have been pretty minor.
We're in a rather strange stage of flux, half the country is playing PS4's while the other half doesn't have electricity

Is Japan as bad as Saudi Arabia is for women or is it better? Yes, addressing the issue (by a game company no less) is a big step
I'll buy the game and play it but my heart will sink every time I see Cindy/Cidney

 

[skLaFarebear]

I'm wondering if Square should get a pass for this though, then again they shouldn't sell to western audiences if they can't accept western ideals

That's kind of harsh. They shouldn't be forced to make games that appeal to a certain region's ideals in order to just being able to sell the game there. There are still a large amount of people (like me) that want to play the game regardless of Cindy's depiction.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Can't speak for everyone, but for me it's that the outfit looks like it was designed to pander to a demographic rather than an outfit that is designed to be worn as an actual work outfit.

For example, if she was shown wearing a slightly more realistic outfit while working (like that earlier sketch a few pages back) and then this outfit outside of work, the latter would still be pandering but at least it would be slightly more believable. But trying to pass of the design as "normal for a mechanic" is just plain dishonest to many of us.

She looks like April O'Neil got her wardrobe at Babies R Us.

 

[jett]

Is Mr. Tabata even aware that Feminism is a thing and there has been a movement for more "respectful" portrayal of women in all media?

Japan is the last country that will care about that stuff.

However, it's kinda funny that according to the polls Japan is the region that least liked the game's characters, when they appear to be tailored made for them.

 

[brandonh83]

Is every FFXV thread going to be this? Look I'm all for valid criticism and conversation and I respect viewpoints (I'm indifferent on the matter) but I don't think this should drive every thread.

 

[matrixman92]

I played the demo for like 5 minutes after the tutorial and then dropped it. Maybe its just xbox one version, but the game was ugly as fuck and the frame rate was atrocious. I normally dont care that much about frame rate, but this was painful. I guess ill try it again when this comes out. I had trouble with the combat too..it felt so clunky and sluggish.

 

[The Smoking Bun]

That's kind of harsh. They shouldn't be forced to make games that appeal to a certain region's ideals in order to just being able to sell the game there. There are still a large amount of people (like me) that want to play the game regardless of Cindy's depiction.

In that case they shouldn't act surprised by the criticism. Equality and Dignity should not be foreign concepts for anyone be they politician or game designer.
Cindy's portrayal goes against a dignified portrayal of a woman mechanic. She doesn't come off as flirty or cute rather she appears like a sex worker
They don't need to appeal to any particular region but they should understand why that region feels that way.

Japan is the last country that will care about that stuff.

However, it's kinda funny that according to the polls Japan is the region that least liked the game's characters, when they appear to be tailored made for them.

Every day my opinion of Japan decreases by just a bit. No one should care but just saying...

Is every FFXV thread going to be this? Look I'm all for valid criticism and conversation and I respect viewpoints (I'm indifferent on the matter) but I don't think this should drive every thread.

Gaming is mainstream now, so yes. In a fighting game, Frame Cancels are now as important as the length of the female fighter's skirt or how much her boobs bounce. Why? Because it's part of a larger problem

 

[franzupan]

I'm starting to feel a bit bad for Cidney (although fictional character).

She seemed to be only valued based off of her outfit/appeal and not her personality/character traits...

 

[RurouniZel]

She looks like April O'Neil got her wardrobe at Babies R Us.

I literally just spit my coffee out laughing. Thank god I managed to turn my head away from the monitor.

Now I can't get that image out of my head. XD

 

[pszet0]

Is every FFXV thread going to be this? Look I'm all for valid criticism and conversation and I respect viewpoints (I'm indifferent on the matter) but I don't think this should drive every thread.

+1

All this discussion about a side character who will have a very minor role in the main plot.

 

[Shahed]

Cant believe so many males are complaining about tits being shoved in their face, lord Jesus what is going on in this world

You shouldn't assume every poster is male. Females do exist online you know. And if they're male you shouldn't assume they are interested in females. Homosexual males exist as well

Having said that, I am a straight male and can appreciate the female body. That does not mean I want it shoved in my face. Tact and tastefulness are a thing. I also tend not to like that sort of thing when gaming. Lastly it's not that I find Cindey's attire offensive or anything. I just think it looks stupid and unnecessary.

 

[horsebird]

Not sure about India since the politicians here always try to sell women empowerment as their top priority even though the results have been pretty minor.
We're in a rather strange stage of flux, half the country is playing PS4's while the other half doesn't have electricity

Is Japan as bad as Saudi Arabia is for women or is it better? Yes, addressing the issue (by a game company no less) is a big step
I'll buy the game and play it but my heart will sink every time I see Cindy/Cidney

My impression of India and Saudi Arabia is that women are largely treated like property, with minimal autonomy. That's for another thread, though.

There's a chance Cidney's redesign will be more sensible, so maybe she'll uplift your spirits every time she appears. Better to expect more of the same, just in case.

 

[.JayZii]

Is every FFXV thread going to be this? Look I'm all for valid criticism and conversation and I respect viewpoints (I'm indifferent on the matter) but I don't think this should drive every thread.

Get used to it. A little dab'll do ya when it comes to JRPG threads.

 

[skLaFarebear]

Is every FFXV thread going to be this? Look I'm all for valid criticism and conversation and I respect viewpoints (I'm indifferent on the matter) but I don't think this should drive every thread.

Well its a thread about addressing said criticism about the topic so its fine here. I haven't really been following FF15 threads much so im not sure if this is a common topic that gets brought up in places where it shouldn't.

 

[The Smoking Bun]

I'm starting to feel a bit bad for Cidney (although fictional character).

She seemed to be only valued based off of her outfit/appeal and not her personality/character traits...

Is that our/Europe's fault or Square's or Tabata's?
Negatives are always easier to focus on and in this case they should be

Have her strut around naked... but understand why some people may not like that or may offend their sensibilities. Don't act all surprised.

My impression of India and Saudi Arabia is that women are largely treated like property, with minimal autonomy. That's for another thread, though.

There's a chance Cidney's redesign will be more sensible, so maybe she'll uplift your spirits every time she appears. Better to expect more of the same, just in case.

India's actually a bit better than Saudi Arabia. SA is bad overall whereas in India, you're mostly good in the big cities (besides Delhi due to the influx of Rednecks/Uneducated Rabble looking for work) like Mumbai or Goa but in the villages all bets are off

 

[Arkeband]

I can't wait until S-E signs another promotional deal, this time with AutoZone and then they dress Cindy up in the greasiest, manliest uniform possible and she gives you terrible customer service instead of being bubbly.

Pictured: The internet cheering for interesting character design.

 

[skLaFarebear]

I'm starting to feel a bit bad for Cidney (although fictional character).

She seemed to be only valued based off of her outfit/appeal and not her personality/character traits...

We haven't really seen much of her to make any kind of opinion on her personality. I thought she seemed fun from what I've seen of all like 4 minutes of her.

In that case they shouldn't act surprised by the criticism. Equality and Dignity should not be foreign concepts for anyone be they politician or game designer.
Cindy's portrayal goes slightly a dignified portrayal of a woman mechanic. She doesn't come off as flirty or cute rather she appears like a sex worker
They don't need to appeal to any particular region but they should understand why that region feels that way.

That's totally fair criticism. Its always been about the "why" that I've had issues with SE about regarding the topic anyway.

 

[Geg]

But trying to pass of the design as "normal for a mechanic" is just plain dishonest to many of us.

If you'd read the thread you would know no one actually said this

 

[QuiteWhittle]

Japan is the last country that will care about that stuff.

However, it's kinda funny that according to the polls Japan is the region that least liked the game's characters, when they appear to be tailored made for them.

They also rated the characters the highest, individually. It looks like the designs are more polarizing in Japan and the people who dislike the characters really hate them even if they're well-liked on average.

 

[Mik317]

They really shouldn't have to change their design to appeal to western ideals...that is the whole part of the Jrpg that I like...it is from a different culture and point of view.

Its really funny that Square and other companies got shat on hard for chasing that Western money and yet here we are and people are passive aggressively asking for the same shit.

The design is sexy and out of place in reality yes and the reasoning is a bit silly (come on son....we all know it is meant to be sexy...and thats ok) but jesus christ guys...it is really hard to read any Japanese Game thread with out the discussion going to the same shit and how people seem to want every game to be this homogenized, safe game that appeals to everyone and no one at the same time because pandering is bad.

I understand the sentiment but I can't say I am not tired of hearing it in every thread. We all want equallity and a better industry and all that jazz but holy shit, it really feels closer to "my way or the highway or at least I will passive agressively call you names and look down on you until you agree".

and again Cidney, a side character with very little importance to the plot, is really the least of the games worries...and yet...

 

[Chinpoko_Master]

A sequel to a demo... lol.

 

[sensui-tomo]

The design is sexy and out of place in reality yes and the reasoning is a bit silly (come on son....we all know it is meant to be sexy...and thats ok) but jesus christ guys...it is really hard to read any Japanese Game thread with out the discussion going to the same shit and how people seem to want every game to be this homogenized, safe game that appeals to everyone and no one at the same time because pandering is bad.

I understand the sentiment but I can't say I am not tired of hearing it in every thread. We all want equallity and a better industry and all that jazz but holy shit, it really feels closer to "my way or the highway or at least I will passive agressively call you names and look down on you until you agree".

and again Cidney, a side character with very little importance to the plot, is really the least of the games worries...and yet...

something something anime avatar quote to make your point irrelevant /s
but i'd be more inclined to believe people about the bad design stuff... if they'd complain about a game whose series didnt have terrible designs since ff2/198x(i havent found the crazy ass dumb designs of ff1 yet so if you want to help, please do)