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[schuelma]

Dynasty Warriors 6

Gundam Musou

Ridge Racer 7

Sega Rally

Virtua Fighter 5

These games were all bombs relative to budget and expectations on the PS3. Which do you think lost the most money? AAA bombs are much more serious than low profile bombs. (Though there are certainly examples of the latter type on PS3 as well.)

Where have I tried to defend the PS3's software sales?

 

[Jokeropia]

Rancid Mildew seems to be taking that position and that post made it look like you backed him up. If that's not the case, feel free to disregard the post.

Anyway, to me it seems that the most common mistake third parties have made regarding Wii is to trying to reach the audience through super happy cutesy colorful games. (While the most successful games have been the complete opposite.) Hopefully some lessons have been learned.

 

[Kosma]

Hey guys I haven't been following Japanese sales age for a while, what is up with the PSP outselling the DS? The YTD numbers are very close too. Did anything big just come out that I missed?

 

[Stumpokapow]

Hey guys I haven't been following Japanese sales age for a while, what is up with the PSP outselling the DS? The YTD numbers are very close too. Did anything big just come out that I missed?

Starting with the PSP slim, the PSP won a few weeks... then back to DS domination for the holiday season... then in 2008 the PSP has crept back up while the DS has "slowed down". Neither movement (DS down nor PSP up) is really software driven.

 

[Kosma]

Starting with the PSP slim, the PSP won a few weeks... then back to DS domination for the holiday season... then in 2008 the PSP has crept back up while the DS has "slowed down". Neither movement (DS down nor PSP up) is really software driven.

<3 for the recap. Now I'm up to speed again.

 

[Threi]

Uncharted (first party)

Ninja Gaiden Sigma

Ratchet and Clank (first party)

Guile

Blanka

E. Honda

 

[Phife Dawg]

I had this theory long ago that games that focus on single player campaigns struggle a lot to be commercial successes on the Wii, in Japan particularly.

To prove that theory, we have Mario Galaxy and Zelda. Given their pedigree and level of production, they struggled like hell to reach decent sales. Not one of them has reached million seller status. That in itself is evidence that the majority of the wii userbase not just "would like" but DEMAND local multiplayer, preferably co-op in their games.

.- Nights:jod
.- Elebits

There are some problems with your theory.

TP was clearly aimed at the western market, who wanted a more "mature" look after WW. Plus judging it's performance by being a million seller or not is not feasible. Phantom Hourglass, which has an art style that is much more appealing to Japanese tastes, is on the DS and thus has the benefit of being cheaper and having a much, much bigger userbase, plus sports a robust multiplayer portion is not a million seller yet as well. This is not a case of TP lacking mp.

SMG has already outsold SMS. While that may not be a huge milestone it still sold well and will most likely end up being a million seller. Again I don't think it would've performed better if it had mp.

Both Nights and Elebits sport a mp portion. Apart from that Elebits did pretty well.

That's an incomplete picture of the situation.

SEGA's Wii output:
- Nights: Failure Japan, success worldwide

Sega PS3: VF5 adequate, Imabikisou success, Sonic failure, VT3 failure, Sega Golf failure.
Sega 360: VF5 failure, Chromehounds failure, Sonic failure, Condemned failure.

How is Nights a success worldwide? It failed to chart in any country in Europe and it even had TV ads (a thing you rarely see for a third party game). What were the numbers for the US?

Zack and Wiki is "low budget" but I'm not so sure the term can even meaningfully be used here. Based on the concept and scope of the game, could it have really been bigger budget? I mean, clearly the advertising of the game was poor and so you could definitely have upped the post-production budget, but in terms of production I'm not sure the budget of the game could have been higher or lower. So if we're simply considering "is it profitable?" then yes, the game is low budget--if we're asking "does this represent a genuine effort?" then I'm not sure the game's low budget impedes the affirmative answer to this.

I think so. From voice acting to more levels this could have been bigger budget with no problem.

 

[D.Lo]

Anymore I'm beginning to wonder if most of the Wii's 3rd party support are part of a "cannon fodder" strategy, where developers and publishers try to hold out for a platform to rely on 3rd party support for it's success near-or-at exclusiveness like the ps2.

I realize it sounds kinda paranoid, but I can't help but wonder at this point... 0.o

Well it does make sense. For all the talk of 'third parties can succeed on Nintendo - just look at the SNES and RE4', they no doubt made much more money on the PS1 and PS2, because they got to be sort of de-facto first parties by having defining games for the systems (Resident Evil, Final Fantasy, Metal Gear etc).

While Street Fighter II, Final Fantasies and Dragon Quests were all somewhat like this on the SNES, they were still outsold by Mario.

Anyway, to me it seems that the most common mistake third parties have made regarding Wii is to trying to reach the audience through super happy cutesy colorful games. (While the most successful games have been the complete opposite.) Hopefully some lessons have been learned.

I'm writing a review of NiGHTS at the moment (only just out in Australia), and I've got a paragraph about all these Wii games with presentation or positioning that doesn't match their gameplay. Nights in particular has fun old school core gameplay, as well as the nostalgia card, but they've layered it under childish, insulting sub-nicktoon presentation. Kids wouldn't like the core gameplay because it's too old school ("I don't care about getting high scores mummy!"), and adults have to put up with the awful presentation. It's not the game anybody actually wants (although I still like it despite the obvious flaws).

 

[test_account]

Don't forget DMC (4).

I know what you mean, but DMC 4 never left PS3 in the same way that DQ and MH did. DMC4 was still released for PS3 eventhough its no longer a console exclusive (maybe it comes to PC as well like DMC 3 did). DQ and MH left PS3 by not comming out for PS3 at all. I dont know if DQ9 was planned for PS3 anyway though, but MH3 definetly left PS3. It might be that we will see both a MH PS3 and a DQ PS3 title in the future, who knows

 

[Lobster]

Third parties do succeed on Wii..not in Japan though.

A lot of third parties are having trouble succeeding in japan...

Lately only Capcom, Namco and Square can pump out 3rd party hits.

I think, Nintendos direction has had a negative effect on Japan yet a positive reaction everywhere else. Well Japan was always in trouble aswell..theres something really wrong when only established titles and sequels will sell.

IMO, stop blaming the Wii for only having a bad 3rd party situation in Japan when Ps3 does too. Titles that were expected to sell over the million mark aren't. You can argue that Ps3 has better 3rd party sales but then I can argue that the biggest 3rd party game on Wii in Japan is a fucking spinoff while the 3rd party sellers for Ps3 that haven't even beaten Wiis spinoff are main titles in the series!

 

[Neomoto]

Third parties do succeed on Wii..not in Japan though.

A lot of third parties are having trouble succeeding in japan...

Lately only Capcom, Namco and Square can pump out 3rd party hits.

I think, Nintendos direction has had a negative effect on Japan yet a positive reaction everywhere else. Well Japan was always in trouble aswell..theres something really wrong when only established titles and sequels will sell.

IMO, stop blaming the Wii for only having a bad 3rd party situation in Japan when Ps3 does too. Titles that were expected to sell over the million mark aren't. You can argue that Ps3 has better 3rd party sales but then I can argue that the biggest 3rd party game on Wii in Japan is a fucking spinoff while the 3rd party sellers for Ps3 that haven't even beaten Wiis spinoff are main titles in the series!

Seriously, I don't even know why it even has to be said in the first place.

The Wii's 3rd party support in Japan is pure shit compared to PS3. The first title the Wii will get that comes even remotely close to 1 bigger PS3 title will be Monster Hunter 3. And beyond that.. well.. hopefully someone will announce something soon..

3rd party's are the ones to blame here, not Nintendo or the Wii or it's userbase.

 

[Moor-Angol]

the biggest 3rd party game on Wii in Japan is a fucking spinoff while the 3rd party sellers for Ps3 that haven't even beaten Wiis spinoff are main titles in the series!

you focused on the correct situation, the main problem for PS3 titles is the userbase is 3x less than Wii's one... on the other side, we didn't see any BIG title released on Wii yet, DQ:S is just a spin-off, RE:Uc is just a spin-off

 

[Rolf NB]

you focused on the correct situation, the main problem for PS3 titles is the userbase is 3x less than Wii's one... on the other side, we didn't see any BIG title released on Wii yet, DQ:S is just a spin-off, RE:Uc is just a spin-off

Does that mean anything? Would they somehow count more if they were original IPs with different setting and lore, but the same gameplay?

 

[RJT]

Does that mean anything?

Yes.
DQ:S is not in any way similar to a real DQ game.
RE:UC is not in any way similar to a real RE game.

 

[Rolf NB]

Yes.
DQ:S is not in any way similar to a real DQ game.
RE:UC is not in any way similar to a real RE game.

And what does that mean? Do you think those games would have sold more if they were closer in gameplay style to the main franchise? Or would they have sold less? There seems to be some implication here but I don't know where this all leads.

 

[Weisheit]

And what does that mean? Do you think those games would have sold more if they were closer in gameplay style to the main franchise? Or would they have sold less? There seems to be some implication here but I don't know where this all leads.

Are you brain dead? That's pretty obviously the implication.

 

[womfalcs3]

Uncharted (first party)

Ninja Gaiden Sigma

Ratchet and Clank (first party)

Uncharted can sell 10 million copies. There will still be those who say it bombed.

 

[TJ Spyke]

Yes.
DQ:S is not in any way similar to a real DQ game.
RE:UC is not in any way similar to a real RE game.

Resident Evil 4: Wii Edition (usually considered the best version of what is usally consider the best RE game) has also done really well. What's your answer to that?

 

[SovanJedi]

And what does that mean? Do you think those games would have sold more if they were closer in gameplay style to the main franchise? Or would they have sold less? There seems to be some implication here but I don't know where this all leads.

I think you're giving the regular gamer less credit than they deserve - while they may not be up on the knowhow of what differences separate a "spinoff" from "mainline" game, they are able to realize that some games are not the proper ones that they've become accustomed to by simply looking at the back of the box, or asking store staff about it, or hearing from word of mouth. Naturally then anything they may not be familiar with they're more wary of and won't buy into as quickly as if it were a non-spinoff title.

Case in point; New Super Mario Bros. versus any other Mario spinoff DS title.

 

[Rolf NB]

I think you're giving the regular gamer less credit than they deserve - while they may not be up on the knowhow of what differences separate a "spinoff" from "mainline" game, they are able to realize that some games are not the proper ones that they've become accustomed to by simply looking at the back of the box, or asking store staff about it, or hearing from word of mouth. Naturally then anything they may not be familiar with they're more wary of and won't buy into as quickly as if it were a non-spinoff title.

Case in point; New Super Mario Bros. versus any other Mario spinoff DS title.

I what? I'm just trying to find out what the fucking point of the argument is.

As far as I deciphered it, we have a group of people who keep trying to point out how the Wii's franchise spinoffs (expected to sell less than a "real" series entry, going by a quick opinion poll) outsell even the PS3's full main-line entr ... oh wait, there aren't any (yet). So what's the fucking point again? Seriously, somebody just tell me.

 

[RJT]

Resident Evil 4: Wii Edition (usually considered the best version of what is usally consider the best RE game) has also done really well. What's your answer to that?

What? I was defending the Wii. That was exactly my point.
Spin-offs on Wii haven't been selling as well as main titles of the series because they are spin-offs with different gameplay.

 

[RJT]

And what does that mean? Do you think those games would have sold more if they were closer in gameplay style to the main franchise?

Obviously! Don't you think an exclusive main DQ on the Wii would have sold a million copies easily? I mean, an 6-8 hour long spin-off sold more than half a mil and was severely undershipped!

 

[RJT]

I what? I'm just trying to find out what the fucking point of the argument is.

As far as I deciphered it, we have a group of people who keep trying to point out how the Wii's franchise spinoffs (expected to sell less than a "real" series entry, going by a quick opinion poll) outsell even the PS3's full main-line entr ... oh wait, there aren't any (yet). So what's the fucking point again? Seriously, somebody just tell me.

The point is: Wii didn't get a main tile of a popular franchise yet, and we Wii owners are pissed, because we support the spinoffs and want the real deal.

With that said, I would rather want new franchises exclusive to wii than a main title of a game that doesn't fit (FF for instance)

 

[TJ Spyke]

I quoted the wrong post by mistake, that was aimed at bcn.

 

[Dragon]

Uncharted can sell 10 million copies. There will still be those who say it bombed.

Yeah considering it's probably sold over 1 million copies, I'm not sure how it's bombed. Well except for people who don't know what they're talking about.

 

[nli10]

SEGA's Wii output:
- Nights: Failure Japan, success worldwide

Not a sucess in the UK.

At full price one week at no 30 in the Wii chart. Now available for half price and only at 26 in the Wii chart...

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

Yeah considering it's probably sold over 1 million copies, I'm not sure how it's bombed. Well except for people who don't know what they're talking about.

I think that has more to do with people claiming it as the PS3 savior du jour.

 

[Stumpokapow]

Yeah considering it's probably sold over 1 million copies, I'm not sure how it's bombed. Well except for people who don't know what they're talking about.

No one ever claimed it bombed; they merely claimed that back in the day, Sony's lynchpin holiday title would have moved more than 1 million units worldwide--IE if Uncharted was placed in a list of best-selling PS2 games, it would be 100th-200th place. That doesn't bode well. It's the same criticism that was made against Resistance and the same criticism that was made against Motorstorm, and for that matter Heavenly Sword. Not that they bombed, but that they did merely well despite their focuses as tide-turning titles.

Not a sucess in the UK.

At full price one week at no 30 in the Wii chart. Now available for half price and only at 26 in the Wii chart...

I think when you take the totality of the Americas and Europe and realize the game is probably at around 300k worldwide right now, relative to its budget and stature that would be considered a decent success.

 

[HK-47]

Didnt NiGHTs only do 60k...in Dec, the biggest month for software and its launch month? I dont see how its at 300k

 

[Phife Dawg]

Didnt NiGHTs only do 60k...in Dec, the biggest month for software and its launch month? I dont see how its at 300k

60k? It's definetly not at 300k sold to customers then. Not even close. And Sega clearly expected more of the title, otherwise they wouldn't have a tv ad campaign but a "silent" release like for most of their other Wii games.

 

[TJ Spyke]

60k? It's definetly not at 300k sold to customers then. Not even close. And Sega clearly expected more of the title, otherwise they wouldn't have a tv ad campaign but a "silent" release like for most of their other Wii games.

What TV campaign? I never saw a single commercial for the game.

 

[AnimeTheme]

Obviously! Don't you think an exclusive main DQ on the Wii would have sold a million copies easily? I mean, an 6-8 hour long spin-off sold more than half a mil and was severely undershipped!

Just the first week was undershipped. After that, it actually had a price collapse due to excessive supply.

 

[HK-47]

60k? It's definetly not at 300k sold to customers then. Not even close. And Sega clearly expected more of the title, otherwise they wouldn't have a tv ad campaign but a "silent" release like for most of their other Wii games.

Thats for NA, btw

 

[vanguardian1]

Just the first week was undershipped. After that, it actually had a price collapse due to excessive supply.

That's because it's a buy it-beat it-trade it in game with practically no replay value. I don't recall the exact number, but I think the game can be beaten in 6-8 hours.

Didnt NiGHTs only do 60k...in Dec, the biggest month for software and its launch month? I dont see how its at 300k

Didn't it launch on the 22nd of December or so?

 

[Cosmonaut X]

Just the first week was undershipped. After that, it actually had a price collapse due to excessive supply.

Actually, ISTR the talk from Japanese GAfers noting the price collapse was likely to have been because of a flood of used copies hitting stores (the game was notably short and easy to complete).

 

[HK-47]

Didn't it launch on the 22nd of December or so?

18th

 

[Dragon]

No one ever claimed it bombed; they merely claimed that back in the day, Sony's lynchpin holiday title would have moved more than 1 million units worldwide--IE if Uncharted was placed in a list of best-selling PS2 games, it would be 100th-200th place. That doesn't bode well. It's the same criticism that was made against Resistance and the same criticism that was made against Motorstorm, and for that matter Heavenly Sword. Not that they bombed, but that they did merely well despite their focuses as tide-turning titles..

Uh people in this thread claimed it bombed.

The PS2 isn't the PS3 and never will be. Not only because its competitors are better, but because of everything else. I think it's time to lower expectations for it yes? With 10 million consoles out, Uncharted selling 1 million is around 10% adoption rate. By contrast if you look at some of the PS2's software sales you'll be surprised at how low some of flagship first party games performed. Then again there isn't anything to play for the PS3 right, that's why people are buying Uncharted

 

[Stumpokapow]

Uh people in this thread claimed it bombed.

The PS2 isn't the PS3 and never will be. Not only because its competitors are better, but because of everything else. I think it's time to lower expectations for it yes? With 10 million consoles out, Uncharted selling 1 million is around 10% adoption rate. By contrast if you look at some of the PS2's software sales you'll be surprised at how low some of flagship first party games performed. Then again there isn't anything to play for the PS3 right, that's why people are buying Uncharted

When I meant is that when someone says "this bombed" they don't mean on an absolute scale, they mean relative to expectations which are based on stature, budget, historical trends, etc.

 

[ElFly]

Uncharted didn't really bomb. It had a horrible first month in America, eclipsed by CoD4, but it sold ok the next month, and Europe loved it.

Basically, Europe saved it.

 

[Laguna]

Uncharted didn't really bomb. It had a horrible first month in America, eclipsed by CoD4, but it sold ok the next month, and Europe loved it.

Basically, Europe saved it.

Do you have numbers from Europe?

 

[jarrod]

Last I checked, Konami has released more exclusive titles (and more titles period) on the Wii and DS than they have on the PS3 and PSP.

Granted, but when the "exclusives" are stuff like Lost in Blue or Dewey's Adventure, well... I don't see much hope honestly.

Konami's best on DS are the nostalgic/classic throwbacks (Igavania, Contra 4, New Track & Field)... I think the best we can hope for on Wii would be similar (stuff like Goemon, Twin Bee, TMNT, etc). Pedigree PlayStation franchises (outside DDR/Sports) just won't be coming, they'll hit PSP/PS2 and the HD twinz instead (ie: MGS4, MGS PO/+, SHV, SH Origins). The only possible exception imo is Suikoden VI, which would likely still hit PS2 additionally anyway.

 

[Minsc]

Uh people in this thread claimed it bombed.

The PS2 isn't the PS3 and never will be. Not only because its competitors are better, but because of everything else. I think it's time to lower expectations for it yes? With 10 million consoles out, Uncharted selling 1 million is around 10% adoption rate. By contrast if you look at some of the PS2's software sales you'll be surprised at how low some of flagship first party games performed. Then again there isn't anything to play for the PS3 right, that's why people are buying Uncharted

So how would you describe Uncharted's performance in the Japanese market? I imagine the people who said it bombed, said so correctly. Has Uncharted even reached 100K in Japan yet (or will it ever for that matter)?

 

[PistolGrip]

Do you have numbers from Europe?

Las numbers I heard were close to 600K in europe. The title is a million seller.

 

[Vinnk]

Actually, ISTR the talk from Japanese GAfers noting the price collapse was likely to have been because of a flood of used copies hitting stores (the game was notably short and easy to complete).

Yup. The week it released it sold out. The next week there was still demand. By the time SE shipped a big restock, used copies were abundant (a virtual flood of copies), so people bought those instead. The price of new copies collapsed. Now you can get the game new for about 2700 yen. According to my friend who owns a game store, used sales of the game are still common now. Copies are always coming and going. Had SE shipped enough on launch day, I think that game could have done over 700k. But that is just speculation now.

 

[slaughterking]

Las numbers I heard were close to 600K in europe. The title is a million seller.

What, really? I thought we only got numbers when Uncharted broke the 100k barrier in UK. 600k seems like a very optimistic estimation.

 

[ElFly]

Mmm, checking my sources, VG Charts announced Uncharted had sold 600K copies on Europe.

Uh, sorry.

 

[nli10]

I think when you take the totality of the Americas and Europe and realize the game is probably at around 300k worldwide right now, relative to its budget and stature that would be considered a decent success.

No idea about the mainland, or USA/Japan, but when the biggest retail chain in the UK halves the price of your game after 3 weeks on sale (and it still fails to sell) it's not considered a sales success.

I'm not saying anything about total worldwide sales or proffitability, but in the UK so far it hasn't done well.

That said, at £20 it might do much better and start to pick up - Ghost Squad has really benefited from it's £25 price point compared to NiGHTS at £40.

EDIT AND LOL: UP TO 17 IN THE WII UK CHART THIS WEEK the new price is working! Granted this is only a 1,000 or so copies, but a well needed boost.

 

[Hesemonni]

Mmm, checking my sources, VG Charts announced Uncharted had sold 600K copies on Europe.

Uh, sorry.

Lawl.

and bye!

 

[charlequin]

IMO, stop blaming the Wii for only having a bad 3rd party situation in Japan when Ps3 does too.

Oh, there's plenty of blame to go around.

Sony's insanity with the PS3 launch price and their failure to support the PSP successfully or sell it to people who pay for software both hurt the Japanese software industry quite a bit. Nintendo's problem here is less any specific thing they did wrong and more a consistent failure to pick up the punt -- with Sony having self-destructed that thoroughly, it shouldn't have been difficult to enact a strategy that would win over all those suddenly aimless third parties.

The fact that, by and large, third parties are still opting for the PS3 even after how badly that platform's chances got fucked over by its manufacturer is my criticism of the Wii. The market sucks so bad all around that it shouldn't really be that hard to make yourself the best option within it.

 

[Minsc]

The fact that, by and large, third parties are still opting for the PS3 even after how badly that platform's chances got fucked over by its manufacturer is my criticism of the Wii. The market sucks so bad all around that it shouldn't really be that hard to make yourself the best option within it.

That alone should be speaking volumes to Nintendo more than anything else, but I really think they just don't care to lend a hand. Would it be wrong to say Nintendo holds grudges?