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[mclem]

I'm not saying fans should not expect a quality product, but what I am saying is that fans should greatly temper their expectations of designers.

This is fair; I think part of the 'issue' with KS is the simple fact that many unpleasant things that have *always* been true about game development are now becoming more visible. Since many people have been shielded from such things in the past through only really seeing the finished product, I think there's a tendency to surmise that KS is what's causing these issues which isn't really the case. As Tim implied two years ago, the sausage ain't pretty.


I've got a vague idea for a game design that I might start prototyping at some point, but I don't have any intention of bringing it to Kickstarter - if at all - until I have something solid enough that I can make sure peoples' expectations of what I can realistically produce are in check.

(I do the same thing in WoW, which makes it really hard to recruit for the guild when I refuse to promise the world

 

[mclem]

Sounds like he bit off more than he could chew, and scrambling to salvage the project.

I agree, but this is a really bad way to go about that!

 

[thefro]

My bigger problem with Kickstarter actually tends to be the opposite of what most people experience, which is an over-involvement of fans in a designer's vision. To some degree, I feel that a game like DooM would have never emerged without a specific set of circumstances and one of those that was hugely influential was a general lack of "input" (read: unrealistic expectations) from the gaming community before its release. To some degree I feel as though Kickstarter makes games a paint-by-numbers pastiche of fan expectations and designer ability to actually deliver on what is almost always an overestimate by fans. I'm not saying fans should not expect a quality product, but what I am saying is that fans should greatly temper their expectations of designers.

That really depends on the developer doing the Kickstarter and the type of game. I think Yacht Club Games has incoporated backer input very well during Shovel Knight. They've gotten a lot of cool ideas from fans that they've incorporated into the game to make it better.

 

[Cyrano]

I agree, but this is a really bad way to go about that!

Yeah, this is definitely one of those situations where a dev is clearly not the person who should be talking to people and a community manager is a good investment. I would say that for a Kickstarter in general a community manager is crucial. Especially if those stats about successful Kickstarters on the last page are true.

In a big way filtering is part of the issue and figuring out what's noise and what's useful feedback is important to the development process of highly open projects such as those on Kickstarter.

That really depends on the developer doing the Kickstarter and the type of game. I think Yacht Club Games has incoporated backer input very well during Shovel Knight. They've gotten a lot of cool ideas from fans that they've incorporated into the game to make it better.

Of course, everything is context-sensitive, but sometimes I feel like press and fans can be a hassle to a certain degree. I actually felt a bit of this sentiment when I chatted with the guys who worked on The Banner Saga at RTX last year. They certainly appreciate the feedback, but they similarly said that it was very hard to manage fan expectations when they expect the world and the best you can give them is a small plot of land. It's not an easy process and noise-to-signal ratios are astronomical.

 

[Azih]

Seems like the guy had no staff to create a game in the first place. Or if he did, they quit.

 

[Shengar]

I contributed to 30 gaming kickstarters (1 of which failed to reach its goal) and I don't feel scammed by any of them. Pretty weak for the "largest gaming scam".

To me, crowdfunding is the best thing which has happened to gaming in over a decade. It's one reason for 2014 being such an amazing year for RPGs.

Yep, and it's also the reason why I still have faith in (PC) gaming despite the current trend of mobile game and the shift in gaming to become time waster service. Still though, I advice anyone to approach Kickstarter project with scepticism and not hype.

 

[Cyrano]

Seems like the guy had no staff to create a game in the first place. Or if he did, they quit.

The Banner Saga was largely created by three people (with contracted work for certain bits due to meeting stretch goals). You do not need (nor have you ever needed) a huge team to create a great game.

 

[Cheddahz]

Still though, I advice anyone to approach Kickstarter project with scepticism and not hype.

This was actually the first Kickstarter I backed (I've only backed two other projects since then, but I decided to research them before I backed them) and my experience from this Kickstarter has made me very wary of backing anything that sounds like my dream game, as you should have confidence that the developer that you're giving money to is able to fulfill their goal. I'm never going to NOT back a Kickstarter again, but I'm going to make sure the developer has a history in game developing and research their company (main reasons why I decided to back Cosmic Star Heroine and La-Mulana 2)

Your advice is the best advice you can give to anyone that is questioning if they should back a project, as you shouldn't give up your money over hype, as most of the time (in my case), the hype doesn't deliver and you need to look on the game development process in a realistic approach

 

[I'm an expert]

The Banner Saga was largely created by three people (with contracted work for certain bits due to meeting stretch goals). You do not need (nor have you ever needed) a huge team to create a great game.

Dude. Look at the resumes of that team. One of them programmed for NASA lol. This game's guy has - "associate's degree" on his resume.

 

[ZeroX03]

The Banner Saga was largely created by three people (with contracted work for certain bits due to meeting stretch goals). You do not need (nor have you ever needed) a huge team to create a great game.

Those are three incredibly talented guys with years of past experience, and received significantly more from their Kickstarter. Not a fair comparison to this KS.

 

[Cyrano]

Dude. Look at the resumes of that team. One of them programmed for NASA lol. This game's guy has - "associate's degree" on his resume.

Valdis Story Abyssal City is my response to this. Yes, not the "most amazing" of games, but again, temper temper.

 

[I'm an expert]

Valdis Story Abyssal City is my response to this. Yes, not the "most amazing" of games, but again, temper temper.

The first thing I notice on their kickstarter is they have already created a game prior to that one. I think they call that.. experience..

 

[Triggerhappytel]

He ended up blocking Robert (from Zeboyd Games) and I this morning on Twitter

Why did he block Robert? I really like Zeboyd, I'm really looking forward to Cosmic Star Heroine and I love how involved they get here and how open they are about the development of CSH.

 

[Meia]

I contributed to 30 gaming kickstarters (1 of which failed to reach its goal) and I don't feel scammed by any of them. Pretty weak for the "largest gaming scam".

To me, crowdfunding is the best thing which has happened to gaming in over a decade. It's one reason for 2014 being such an amazing year for RPGs.

I just want to add to this by saying that I've wanted a new Shadowrun since the SNES since it was one of my top 10 games on the system(which says a LOT), and the last one we "got" was an FPS that had no resemblance to the source material. It took KS to get me that new Shadowrun game. THAT'S what the whole thing is for.



Did I support this one? Yeah, though I don't remember what I was in for. Sounded good, we've been having a massive JRPG drought in comparison to the last gen, so figured this was probably the only way to scratch that itch. If it does fail and doesn't deliver(and ALL of the shady shit he's done, from locking down public forums to not giving out game updates via KS like the other like dozen I'm paid for), it sucks, but eh, thems the brakes. I know never to support anything this guy does ever again, and it finishes him in an industry he may have wanted to get a foothold in, but realistically I'll have forgotten him a month after it fails completely, and I won't think twice about backing another project I want to see succeed. THAT'S the whole point of KS, after all. /shrug

 

[Aaron]

The first thing I notice on their kickstarter is they have already created a game prior to that one. I think they call that.. experience..

Legend of Fae. A fun and well made game. As resumes go, that's a solid one.

 

[2San]

Why did he block Robert? I really like Zeboyd, I'm really looking forward to Cosmic Star Heroine and I love how involved they get here and how open they are about the development of CSH.

He probably didn't like this:

I think this just got a lot more exposure, which is a good thing

 

[Cheddahz]

Why did he block Robert? I really like Zeboyd, I'm really looking forward to Cosmic Star Heroine and I love how involved they get here and how open they are about the development of CSH.

I am not too sure if he blocked Robert, but Robert talked about what is going on with all of this last night and mentioned that he wouldn't be too happy if he had backed this. The developer of Soul Saga blocked me this morning (probably after he saw my tweets) and I had shown Robert about what was going on and the Soul Saga guy probably saw that Robert was talking about how he would be "annoyed about the redesigns" and that the redesigns add "more expense"

 

[DistortionOfReality]

I backed this ages ago and forgot about it. I dont mind the new art style but 'reduced scope' and 'KS funded trip to Japan' make me sad

 

[Cyrano]

The first thing I notice on their kickstarter is they have already created a game prior to that one. I think they call that.. experience..

Certainly, but as has already been said, "it's a well made and fun game," but it's also rather derivative and similar to most Popcap games fare. If this game is given to being a jRPG clone, it's not unreasonable to assume that a game designer even with little experience can replicate that design. RPG Maker can do it almost for free.

Honestly I find all the blocking of Twitter users and forum-locking a bit more disturbing.

 

[I'm an expert]

Certainly, but as has already been said, "it's a well made and fun game," but it's also rather derivative and similar to most Popcap games fare. If this game is given to being a jRPG clone, it's not unreasonable to assume that a game designer even with little experience can replicate that design. RPG Maker can do it almost for free.

Honestly I find all the blocking of Twitter users and such a bit more disturbing.

Well he's gonna put out a final product eventually I assume. I guess we'll see.

 

[Miletius]

The first thing I notice on their kickstarter is they have already created a game prior to that one. I think they call that.. experience..

Agreed. Reading his Kickstarter it seems like this guy a) grew up on a horse ranch, b) worked for MS as a tester for a little while, c) is a one man team, and d) loves JRPG's and is a self taught programmer. But he promised a full fledged JRPG with VITA and Wii U versions. It just seems unrealistic from the pitch alone, never-mind the amount of money involved.

Kickstarters come and go -- you gotta learn how to spot the risky ones if you don't want to be involved in a failed project.

 

[Cyrano]

Well he's gonna put out a final product eventually I assume. I guess we'll see.

Indeed. I will agree that I don't see great prospects on this project, but I'm willing to give new developers a chance, much as I did with Sealark and Ghost of a Tale.

 

[system11]

Stuff like this is why I'm too afraid to ever really back a kickstarter. You just don't know what you're going to get.

It's not all bad, but you really do have to look at the sales pitch before you decide to back something and also be fine with the dates slipping. I've backed 8 so far, I've received 4 and the others aren't due yet. All sorts of stuff from a wallet to a watch to a game soundtrack.

 

[Aaron]

Certainly, but as has already been said, "it's a well made and fun game," but it's also rather derivative and similar to most Popcap games fare. If this game is given to being a jRPG clone, it's not unreasonable to assume that a game designer even with little experience can replicate that design. RPG Maker can do it almost for free.

I think you really underestimate how difficult making a game is. Also Legend of Fae isn't really like any Popcap game. They didn't invent matching puzzles, especially ones with active time battle style combat, rpg elements, and an actual story. Popcap almost never stray beyond the base mechanics, which honestly tend to be derivative.

 

[skybald]

Say what you will, but if he can't handle constructive criticism (I never once lashed out at him), then yes, my "ego" is bruised from being banned after speaking up.

I am reading the KS again and am trying to figure out where it says the developer had to listen to donor criticisms and I am coming up empty. Unless you donated enough money to be considered a producer, there is little reason for the developer to listen to you. It is his dream to make the game, not yours. He should have full artistic freedom and you don't have to enjoy that.

Yea, there tee forums and everything to talk about the game but you should never really have thought you were going to have much say in the game. And expected failure

 

[Annubis]

Funding a project on Kickstarter doesn't make you an investor.

Exactly what I was going to write.

 

[ringlord]

So this guy is going to make PC, Mac, Linux, PS4, Vita, and WiiU versions of this game for $200K?

And he has to hire artists and (I presume) programmers?

I am going to be very surprised if even one version of this game happens, let alone six.

 

[Calabi]

I dont see how you can get a refund. If that was the case someone could ask for a refund after they've completed the game, because you dont like it, and the developer is unable to pay.

I view the money I give on Kickstarter as throwing it away, its a hope to see something but no guarantee. If I get something back from it great awesome bonus, but if not it sucks but I'm not too bothered. Its ordinary people pitching stuff so they are going to fuck up and be deceitful, and not know what they are doing and everything in between.

I've been conned so many times, it would be sad to let one or a few mistakes stop you from helping some great games being made in the future.

 

[Geedorah]

If anyone does have solid information on an East coast lawyer that is picking up Kickstarter cases, I am very interested in getting in contact with one... for reasons.

 

[Cheddahz]

I am reading the KS again and am trying to figure out where it says the developer had to listen to donor criticisms and I am coming up empty. Unless you donated enough money to be considered a producer, there is little reason for the developer to listen to you. It is his dream to make the game, not yours. He should have full artistic freedom and you don't have to enjoy that.

Yea, there tee forums and everything to talk about the game but you should never really have thought you were going to have much say in the game. And expected failure

Well you know....I bought an early copy of the game and he has already used most of the money on redesigns and it's possible that he used the money to go to Japan. He recently started coding the game and that's why most of us are pretty disgusted

 

[Authority]

Stop calling it a donation. It's not an investment either. It's patronage, which in the history of patronage many results weren't what the patrons wanted either, but they almost never got their money back. You're providing support for a person to have the time and resources to produce whatever they're promising to produce, and that doesn't come with the guarantee you'll like the results, even if not all kickstarters spell this out. Some kickstarters have offered refunds, but its really up to them, and not something you can or should expect in every instance.

Spend your money wisely. In 99% of life, there are no refunds.

You are donating. You are not the King, Pope, President or any other CEO, Executive, Lead and so on and so forth. You are in no position to alter, pressure, demand and direct the course of the product. There is nothing patro about it.

In addition, if Kickstarter genuinely wanted games to be supported they would

• Issue a refund of 15% to 45% according to your individual contribution.
• Issue warnings and penalties if a creator continually failed to meet the expectations.
• Allow more transparency between the "donators" and the creators.
• Allow only concepts and ideas to be hosted through their website through a genuine voting system from the gaming audience in which every week a certain amount of games would be featured and highlighted, open for donations whereas the ones that did not make it would have to go through the voting system again the next week and try to persuade more the gaming audience.

Instead they allow this system of free for all of producing massively mediocre games in the name of Indie Rebirth (stepping on the gamers nostalgia for oldschool material and memories), which some make it and some do not and surprisingly (sic) million(s) of dollars have already been flushed into the toilet and the only message of support they give you is "tough shit". But everything is alright, everything is perfectly fine because Star Citizen will save us all.

Already, the amount of total donations has been dropped and still dropping and this exact story just adds more to the mistrust of this whole project starter.

That is the grim reality;You are donating somewhere for something and it is perfectly fine to get scammed, it is alright to get scammed and everyone can sleep guilty free.

 

[Cyrano]

I think you really underestimate how difficult making a game is. Also Legend of Fae isn't really like any Popcap game. They didn't invent matching puzzles, especially ones with active time battle style combat, rpg elements, and an actual story. Popcap almost never stray beyond the base mechanics, which honestly tend to be derivative.

You're right, the comparison is unfair, the game has more complexity than that. What I'm saying is that none of the elements in Legend of Fae are ultimately new. They are a recombination (a remix) of old ideas. Most videogames on Kickstarter are not bucking the trend and trying to be something new. Jason Rohrer's Transcend was a game that actually did something new and it was made by one person who had little or no design experience in games. It is difficult to judge a person's ability to create games until something is actually created. Casting aspersions because the guy's a jerk doesn't mean he can't make videogames (see Phil Fish - or lately, Jason Rohrer).

 

[Cheddahz]

edit: my one complaint about the Kickstarter would be that at least up front it was supposed to be Cross-Buy so I backed at the tier to get both the PS4/Vita versions but that changed, however I understand his reasoning for it even if I disagree

I was disappointed to hear that cross-buy wouldn't be available, even though it was mentioned in the Kickstarter that it would be, but this also comes back to the issue of running out of money (If I recall correctly, he mentioned something about the cross-buy feature not being within the budget or something)

 

[genbatzu]

I was disappointed to hear that cross-buy wouldn't be available, even though it was mentioned in the Kickstarter that it would be, but this also comes back to the issue of running out of money (If I recall correctly, he mentioned something about the cross-buy feature not being within the budget or something)

pm on kickstarter:

Disastercake
Oct 23, 2013


Hello~

Recently, after talks with Sony, I have come to the conclusion that it will not be economically feasible for Soul Saga to be cross-buy between the PS4 and Vita. It may have cross-play features, but the cross-buy will just not work within my budget and the costs associated with this feature.

So I forgot a very important question in the survey I sent out...

Would you like your PSN code to be for Vita or PS4?

Thanks,
Mike

 

[Cyrano]

I was disappointed to hear that cross-buy wouldn't be available, even though it was mentioned in the Kickstarter that it would be, but this also comes back to the issue of running out of money (If I recall correctly, he mentioned something about the cross-buy feature not being within the budget or something)

It is genuinely strange to hear you and Robert getting blocked. It seems like a huge mistake to ignore the advice with regards to game development, given your collective knowledge.

 

[Azih]

The Banner Saga was largely created by three people (with contracted work for certain bits due to meeting stretch goals). You do not need (nor have you ever needed) a huge team to create a great game.

Depends on the people involved, and the scope of the game design. This guy is obviously no artist and seems to be unable to maintain a working relationship with one.

 

[Cyrano]

Depends on the people involved, and the scope of the game design. This guy is obviously no artist and seems to be unable to maintain a working relationship with one.

True... and worrying.

 

[Robert at Zeboyd Games]

I'm not seeing any signs that he blocked me on Twitter. Not sure where you're getting that.

EDIT: Actually, it looks like I am in fact blocked from his account.

 

[Cheddahz]

It is genuinely strange to hear you and Robert getting blocked. It seems like a huge mistake to ignore the advice with regards to game development, given your collective knowledge.

I'm really no one special, I'm just a person that wants to help bring this to people's attention and hopefully for anyone who backed this project, it'll make them more wary of backing projects in the future (and it shows how the social media is affecting video game development). Robert on the other hand, is someone that has a lot of knowledge about Kickstarters (he runs an article once a week about Kickstarters) and I've actually learned a lot about Kickstarters from them and honestly, he is someone I wouldn't want to block

I'm not seeing any signs that he blocked me on Twitter. Not sure where you're getting that.

It showed last night that you were following him and this morning, you're not following him and he isn't following you and it seems like he is trying to get rid of evidence about what has happened, so I just assumed that he had blocked you. If he didn't block you, then I apologize for assuming that he blocked you (if you want to check, try following him and it'll tell you that the user has blocked you)

 

[Cyrano]

I'm not seeing any signs that he blocked me on Twitter. Not sure where you're getting that.

My sincerest apologies. Simply a result of me glossing over stuff I'm reading. Will try to be more careful in the future.

 

[Robert at Zeboyd Games]

No, you were right. Twitter was telling me that we followed each other but when I actually went to his page, it indicated that I was not following him and trying to follow him gave me the "You have been blocked from following this account at the request of the user" message.

 

[Zukuu]

The new art style is a blessing. I may be looking forward to it now.

 

[Cyrano]

No, you were right. Twitter was telling me that we followed each other but when I actually went to his page, it indicated that I was not following him and trying to follow him gave me the "You have been blocked from following this account at the request of the user" message.

Very odd, especially given your proven ability to make the kind of clasically-minded games Disastercake claims to want to make.

Well, who knows. Generally retreating into a shell is a dumb thing, rather than taking advice from those who are typically only trying to help. I guess we'll see.

 

[LiK]

Very odd, especially given your proven ability to make the kind of clasically-minded games Disastercake claims to want to make.

Well, who knows. Generally retreating into a shell is a dumb thing, rather than taking advice from those who are typically only trying to help. I guess we'll see.

The guy is probably butthurt from this thread and any advice/criticism is too much for him.

 

[Cheddahz]

The thing is that, there is plenty of evidence (blocking people who have different views, gibing criticism and advice and overreacting to it) that supports this thread. The fact that he has also spent a lot of the money on artists and the "trip" to Japan as well is not a good sign. I didn't "feed the trolls" and that was never my objective, there is just plenty of evidence to show that the development of this game has gone down the wrong path

 

[I'm an expert]

Yeah it's obvious this guy is afraid of the consequences of failure and will basically shut that shit out as best as he can.

 

[LiK]

The thing is that, there is plenty of evidence (blocking people who have different views, gibing criticism and advice and overreacting to it) that supports this thread. The fact that he has also spent a lot of the money on artists and the "trip" to Japan as well is not a good sign. I didn't "feed the trolls" and that was never my objective, there is just plenty of evidence to show that the development of this game has gone down the wrong path

Yup, clearly butthurt. Instead of explaining himself or trying to clarify what's going on, he's just blocking/banning/complaining. I've backed a lot of other KS projects and those guys have been professional and transparent if backers have any concerns about anything. This guy is none of that.

 

[Annubis]

Yeah it's obvious this guy is afraid of the consequences of failure and will basically shut that shit out as best as he can.

One does not care to acknowledge the mistakes of one's youth.

 

[Cyrano]

Yeah it's obvious this guy is afraid of the consequences of failure and will basically shut that shit out as best as he can.

It's also obvious that he's new to game development and managing a fanbase. Neither of which are things he can control but there are some definite things he can do to not alienate those who just want the best game they can get delivered.

 

[Cheddahz]

Twitter update!

He also mentioned that he wants to hire someone else once the game goes live, but I thought coding started a few weeks ago? If the concept art isn't even done, there is no way this game comes out in July

EDIT: He has unblocked Robert from Zeboyd Games as well