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[Timeaisis]

He also mentioned that he wants to hire someone else once the game goes live, but I thought coding started a few weeks ago? If the concept art isn't even done, there is no way this game comes out in July

What a minute, wait a minute. Coding started a few weeks ago? As in, everything before this has been pre-production? Is this real life? What about the gameplay we saw in the KS video? Now I'm really confused. But then again, I'm not a backer so I haven't been getting updates.

 

[Amir0x]

I totally get what you're angry, and the banning is ridiculous. So sick of people who cannot take criticism either calling people trolls or being so emotionally connected to what they've invested in that they cannot properly even try to understand what the critic is saying.

But of course this is the nature of Kickstarter... you're "investing" in an idea, and the reality is that investment may fail completely or be different from what you've invested in. In that sense, it is the risk you take for being a ground floor investor. It's the risk all investors take for anything in this world.

Naturally though this is an example of a group poorly handling the development process or misunderstanding what the process actually requires, and then failing to live up to the expectations of people like you when reality hits. And if I were you, I'd definitely never support anything from these people again.

I haven't looked through this whole thread, but can you quote the post in question that got you banned? I want to see exactly what this guy views as "tasteless" in your criticism.

 

[I'm an expert]

His ks says he could finish the programming in 3 months if he had assets. He had to go to Japan to get the assets!!

 

[Cheddahz]

What a minute, wait a minute. Coding started a few weeks ago? As in, everything before this has been pre-production? Is this real life? What about the gameplay we saw in the KS video? Now I'm really confused. But then again, I'm not a backer so I haven't been getting updates.

This is from the recent update

THE CODING BEGINS

The past two weeks I have been working literally non-stop on getting the code base for Soul Saga set up. I had originally planned on jumping right in to the combat prototype, but as I sat down for the code, I realized it would be a much smarter idea to lay the foundational code for all of the supporting elements before getting into the actual game itself.
So I pushed the combat prototype farther down the “to do” list and worked on the level loading, character loading, basic stat system, Saving/Loading/Deleting files, maintaining player settings, basic movement, basic camera functionality, Xbox 360 controller input, mouse and keyboard functionality, basic user interface functionality, and a few other things. I got all of those already set in solid place. Next I’m planning on working more on the character movement in the world, basic world enemy AI, then moving on to the combat prototype mid this week. I think 1-2 weeks from now is a good milestone for the combat prototype now that all of the other stuff is in place.
Graphically speaking, there currently is not much to show. However, these key elements are an important part of the game as a whole and I had to make sure they were all in place before starting on all the fun stuff.

 

[Annubis]

Isn't asking questions about questions a very well known way to try and avoid answering them?
Politicians do it all the time.

 

[flkraven]

Kickstarter is becoming more and more unappealing. It's like being a shareholder in a project, except without any of the benefits. You end up buying a game in advance (for typically MORE money), and there is only a 1/3 chance it is even made (and when it is made, it might not be the game you bought).

 

[Timeaisis]

His ks says he could finish the programming in 3 months if he had assets. He had to go to Japan to get the assets!!

Ahahahaha. Wow.

This is from the recent update

Wow again.

I didn't realize this at all. It's become more and more clear this guy has no idea what he is doing. If the coding has just begun, it means he's not even 1/4 of the way through development. Everything prior has been pre-production pretty much. Everything changes once the actual game starts being developed. Everything.

 

[LiK]

Sounds like this game won't be out for a while. good luck backers.

 

[Cheddahz]

Here is his Twitter, he is on it right now talking to people and yeah, this isn't going to end up well

 

[Amir0x]

Kickstarter is becoming more and more unappealing. It's like being a shareholder in a project, except without any of the benefits. You end up buying a game in advance (for typically MORE money), and there is only a 1/3 chance it is even made (and when it is made, it might not be the game you bought).

I mean the benefit is that you may eventually get a game that otherwise would not exist. The risks are the same as any investor - the project may eventually fail, or may end up being completely different from what you expected.

Both of these scenarios deserve to have the ire pointed at the developers for their failures, but I don't know how you'd change Kickstarter without ruining the fundamental investor principle. Can't start giving people refunds for stuff like this, Kickstarter would never work if that happened

 

[Mesoian]

This is why I only kickstart games that I can see personally or have projects being run by people with a history in game development.

This shit is amateur hour.

 

[Azih]

Those milestones are kinda bananas.

"Hey guys I just started coding the game from scratch. Got enemy AI done in about three hours. Combat should be done in one or two weeks."

 

[Timeaisis]

I need to check out these milestones.

EDIT: Double post. GAF was down for me.

 

[LouisaFerre]

Ahahahaha. Wow.



Wow again.

I didn't realize this at all. It's become more and more clear this guy has no idea what he is doing. If the coding has just begun, it means he's not even 1/4 of the way through development. Everything prior has been pre-production pretty much. Everything changes once the actual game starts being developed. Everything.

A single person with no experience who has to outsource (at least) the art thought he could make a 3D JRPG on $60,000, then thought another $20,000 was enough for voice acting and Vita/Wii U/PS4 releases. Oh, and he set the release date for July this year. This seemed sketchy from the fucking start.

 

[mclem]

You are donating. You are not the King, Pope, President or any other CEO, Executive, Lead and so on and so forth. You are in no position to alter, pressure, demand and direct the course of the product. There is nothing patro about it.

In addition, if Kickstarter genuinely wanted games to be supported they would

• Issue a refund of 15% to 45% according to your individual contribution.
• Issue warnings and penalties if a creator continually failed to meet the expectations.
• Allow more transparency between the "donators" and the creators.
• Allow only concepts and ideas to be hosted through their website through a genuine voting system from the gaming audience in which every week a certain amount of games would be featured and highlighted, open for donations whereas the ones that did not make it would have to go through the voting system again the next week and try to persuade more the gaming audience.

Instead they allow this system of free for all of producing massively mediocre games in the name of Indie Rebirth (stepping on the gamers nostalgia for oldschool material and memories), which some make it and some do not and surprisingly (sic) million(s) of dollars have already been flushed into the toilet and the only message of support they give you is "tough shit". But everything is alright, everything is perfectly fine because Star Citizen will save us all.

Already, the amount of total donations has been dropped and still dropping and this exact story just adds more to the mistrust of this whole project starter.

That is the grim reality;You are donating somewhere for something and it is perfectly fine to get scammed, it is alright to get scammed and everyone can sleep guilty free.

You seem to be wanting KS to be something it's not. It is a tool for sourcing funding for projects. No more, no less. It's not an arbiter, it's not making any claims as to the viability of the project . Once funding is secured, your agreement is with the project runner, not KS.

That doesn't make it 'fine to get scammed', of course. But there's a difference between a scam and a failure, and I'm okay if some projects I've funded fail. Heck, I'm expecting it, and I'm mildly surprised that nothing I've funded thus far has really done so!

I wrote upthread about the importance of thinking in the context of risk, and you aren't doing that in your suggested solution: Kickstarter is there to spread a large risk over a large number of people. Mandating refunds moves that risk right back on the project manager. It defeats the fundamental point of the service.

This - and indeed, many other industries Kickstarter aids - is a creative industry. People shouldn't have to cripple themselves just to get the freedom to be creative. Persist that way, and things stagnate.

 

[Malyse]

Twitter update!

really weird seeing myself in a screenshot :O

I'm done. He doesn't seem to want to answer the questions I'm asking, which is answer enough for me.

 

[Amir0x]

Those milestones are kinda bananas.

"Hey guys I just started coding the game from scratch. Got enemy AI done in about three hours. Combat should be done in one or two weeks."

Yes, these guys show a profound misunderstanding of the development process. Either they have no clue how things actually work, or the final game is going to be pathetically awful.

 

[Timeaisis]

A single person with no experience who has to outsource (at least) the art thought he could make a 3D JRPG on $60,000, then thought another $20,000 was enough for voice acting and Vita/Wii U/PS4 releases. Oh, and he set the release date for July this year. This seemed sketchy from the fucking start.

Well, I'm sure it did. I just didn't back it so I didn't care to do any research into who or what I was backing.

It's pretty clear to me now that he outsource art for years, put it together to make a nice looking video and began asking for money without any real game development experience. But hey, he had a good looking trailer. This is why I'm starting to hate KS games, most of the trailers are lies. They contain no gameplay and just "faked" gameplay. Which is complete bullshit. This problem is rampant, and I think Soul Saga just really highlights it. From the trailers it looks like this guy is a talented developer, when in reality he just cut together some art and animations into a gameplay-looking video.

 

[Elessartelrunya]

I'm trying to follow this on Twitter on my phone (Twitter is blocked at my work along with other gaming sites). It sounds like he's denying that I was banned? Not sure, but here's the proof if that's the claim;

[Imgur](http://i.imgur.com/64MD0BE.png)

Also, I don't recall being "warned", nor do I feel I was being insulting. Another case of I felt I was being honest, and he didn't like it?

EDIT: he also blocked me on Twitter...

 

[Amir0x]

I'm trying to follow this on Twitter on my phone (Twitter is blocked at my work along with other gaming sites). It sounds like he's denying that I was banned? Not sure, but here's the proof if that's the claim;

[Imgur](http://i.imgur.com/64MD0BE.png)

Also, I don't recall being "warned", nor do I feel I was being insulting. Another case of I felt I was being honest, and he didn't like it?

Do you have any way to show what you posted there for NeoGAF? The context would undoubtedly be important for us to judge if they overreacted there (although judging by how ridiculous these guys seem to be in developing this game, I'd bet money it was an overreaction)

 

[Cheddahz]

Judging from his Twitter, it seems as if he doesn't remember what was said on the forums and that if he did ban someone, it was because of "good judgement"

 

[QuantumZebra]

Sorry for the wall of text, but recent events with this project have really pissed me off, here's my "story"...



Needless-to-say, I'm no longer interested in this project.

Goes from a neat Bravely Default-esque design to generic protagonist guy using a buster sword (FFS it's not even attempting to not copy Cloud's sword...), and a half naked girl.

What a waste. I can see why you're pissed.

 

[Elessartelrunya]

Do you have any way to show what you posted there for NeoGAF? The context would undoubtedly be important for us to judge if they overreacted there (although judging by how ridiculous these guys seem to be in developing this game, I'd bet money it was an overreaction)

Negative, he deleted a few of my posts before locking down the dev diaries, and then another prior to banning me. My LAST post where I requested a refund (after he locked the dev diaries) was the first time I felt my posts had become heated. That's the only post of mine that would would agree may have come off as insulting, but then again, he had deleted my posts and blocked me from viewing the dev diaries so I feel I had a right to be pissed.

 

[Aaron]

Kickstarter is becoming more and more unappealing. It's like being a shareholder in a project, except without any of the benefits. You end up buying a game in advance (for typically MORE money), and there is only a 1/3 chance it is even made (and when it is made, it might not be the game you bought).

It's not an investment. Most videogame kickstarters are successful, and often exceed the promises of their initial pitch. These games wouldn't exist without kickstarter. Seriously, the Banner Saga just came out, and is getting praised by everyone who puts their hands on it. The first half of Broken Age just came out, and one of the best adventure games I have ever played already. I've played at least a half dozen kickstarted games now, some I backed and some I picked up after, and all of them have been good to completely amazing. I didn't even know Kentucky Route Zero was a kickstarter project, and it's incredible. I've gotten plenty out of kickstarter from the generosity of others so I wouldn't even mind that much if one of the projects I put money into failed, but so far none of them have, and none of them look like they will either.

 

[Einbroch]

All he had to say was "I appreciate and respect your opinion, and am open to all suggestions. However, at this time, this is the vision I want to go with. Thanks for being a supporter and I hope you'll enjoy the final project".

Done.

 

[Salamando]

How do we even register for the forums anyway? They require some kind of code, and to my knowledge I haven't received one.

 

[Cheddahz]

How do we even register for the forums anyway? They require some kind of code, and to my knowledge I haven't received one.

Well, he closed down the forums after all of this happened and if I recall, not a lot of people got their codes for the forums

 

[LiK]

All he had to say was "I appreciate and respect your opinion, and am open to all suggestions. However, at this time, this is the vision I want to go with. Thanks for being a supporter and I hope you'll enjoy the final project".

Done.

Or just give the guy his refund and be done with it.

 

[Einbroch]

Or just give the guy his refund and be done with it.

He could, but he is under no obligation to do so. I was just posting the bare minimum that would "satisfy" the situation.

 

[Elessartelrunya]

Or just give the guy his refund and be done with it.

#logic I've sent 2-3 requests, no reply from him.

 

[Cyrano]

I am fairly curious as to what design documentation has been finalized re: scripts, combat flow, etc. If they are indeed just being started within the past few weeks, it could be well over a year before a product emerges.

 

[Amir0x]

Negative, he deleted a few of my posts before locking down the dev diaries, and then another prior to banning me. My LAST post where I requested a refund (after he locked the dev diaries) was the first time I felt my posts had become heated. That's the only post of mine that would would agree may have come off as insulting, but then again, he had deleted my posts and blocked me from viewing the dev diaries so I feel I had a right to be pissed.

Of course he did. Eliminate the evidence, then he can say it's his word against yours. Judging by how absurd he is with his development goals, the reduced scope, still shuffling concept artists, just started coding two weeks ago, Q4 2014 goal?

I would say I feel pretty safe believing your version of events over theirs.

Judging from his Twitter, it seems as if he doesn't remember what was said on the forums and that if he did ban someone, it was because of "good judgement"

Hey I made an appearance this time. Laying out why he doesn't understand the development process or he's being misleading in tweets is hard work, fuck I hate using twitter

 

[Saren is Bad]

Well at least the game comes out in July 2014, so we'll be able to see how this unfolds.

Spoiler

 

[Salamando]

He could, but he is under no obligation to do so. I was just posting the bare minimum that would "satisfy" the situation.

Obligation to? Certainly not. But it would be the safest way to excise a bad element from your project. If he really felt like someone was insulting his artists, a refund removes any right someone has to complain about the state of the game. It removes even the hint of an investor/patron relationship.


Also, "The assets are almost all done"...is he talking art assets? Cause damn, unless he's planning on having one town and a dungeon of corridors filled with two enemy types, that sounds crazy.

 

[Amir0x]

Well at least the game comes out in July 2014, so we'll be able to see how this unfolds.

Spoiler

To be fair, they said the goal is Q4 2014 release, so that wouldn't be June.

 

[Famassu]

So basically so far we have many big failures and small successes; but you are right, I talk allot of bollocks and I do apologize for questioning the credibility of the largest gaming scam.

Give up your pathetic shit-mongering. Kickstarter is not a scam. Your complaints are completely pointless, wrong and just silly.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

Wait doesn't he claim in the initial KS pitch that he's been working on this for years...yet he just started coding?

 

[Socreges]

The new (and old) character art seems lazy and derivative, kinda like the name "Soul Saga".

Sorry the creator did this, OP. Backer beware.

 

[Purple Cheeto]

I contracted briefly on a game that received some funding via Kickstarter. The scope of the game changed and morphed so many times that the final product barely resembled what had originally been pitched. At one point the creative director even said something to the effect of "screw the backers", when asked how we were gonna get in game content that people had been promised as part of rewards levels.

I left before the game shipped and I was never privy to everything the game was supposed to have for backers, but I know at least some of it did make it in. And I know there were also a few very vocal and unhappy backers post launch.

I should note that the majority of the funding for the project did not come via Kickstarter.

I guess the moral here is that when you're dealing with small Indie studios run by people who don't have big resumes, you can only take what they offer at face value. You're not there working with them day to day, and these types tend to be very ego driven and not open to criticism.

 

[Jackpot]

If a project I gave money for decided to completely change its goals you're damn right I'd try and get my money back, whether there was a legal obligation to deliver on those goals or not.

 

[Amir0x]

I contracted briefly on a game that received some funding via Kickstarter. The scope of the game changed and morphed so many times that the final product barely resembled what had originally been pitched. At one point the creative director even said something to the effect of "screw the backers", when asked how we were gonna get in game content that people had been promised as part of rewards levels..

I know you'd probably never say it, but I really wish we knew who said "screw the backers" so we could all opt to never, ever support that group again. Now that's something they should be ashamed about.

If a project I gave money for decided to completely change its goals you're damn right I'd try and get my money back

And it's fine to desire that, but do you not understand how investing in a project is fundamentally different from giving money to games in any other way? By definition when you invest in something, you're taking the implied risk it may never come out at all (which is even worse) or that it may come out in a completely different form. And these devs deserve your ire when it happens, but to change the investment principle of Kickstarter would be a disaster. That's simply not how any investment should work. Not only aren't they legally obligated, but it's silly to expect it. If development of a game starts for example thanks to investors but then fails, do you think they'd have the money to refund anybody? The game failed, it's lost money. If they had money to give out like that, they probably would not have asked for investors in the first place

 

[Cheddahz]

 

[Cyrano]

I still think what worries me most about this project at the moment is the lack of narrative design documents. Are these around and I've just missed them? I feel like the most important element to any RPG is a good scenario and a good story.

 

[Einbroch]

Obligation to? Certainly not. But it would be the safest way to excise a bad element from your project. If he really felt like someone was insulting his artists, a refund removes any right someone has to complain about the state of the game. It removes even the hint of an investor/patron relationship.


Also, "The assets are almost all done"...is he talking art assets? Cause damn, unless he's planning on having one town and a dungeon of corridors filled with two enemy types, that sounds crazy.

I'm not arguing that he shouldn't. He should. All I'm saying that if he didn't want to give a refund, an understanding, respectful response would suffice (at least for the time being) and we likely wouldn't have this thread.

 

[LouisaFerre]

Well, I'm sure it did. I just didn't back it so I didn't care to do any research into who or what I was backing.

It's pretty clear to me now that he outsource art for years, put it together to make a nice looking video and began asking for money without any real game development experience. But hey, he had a good looking trailer. This is why I'm starting to hate KS games, most of the trailers are lies. They contain no gameplay and just "faked" gameplay. Which is complete bullshit. This problem is rampant, and I think Soul Saga just really highlights it. From the trailers it looks like this guy is a talented developer, when in reality he just cut together some art and animations into a gameplay-looking video.

I actually do feel a sense of concern that people are going to start becoming opposed to crowdfunding or KS in general. It is kind of a risk, but at the same time I feel like it's been pretty easy to see the flaws in a project so far. While Soul Saga did have videos, they looked pretty damn basic. I don't mean to rail on it but they came off to me as looking more like mockups than solid examples of gameplay. That plus the lack of an experienced team and the absurd promises with the stretch goals should have set off red flags for more people.

 

[QuantumZebra]

lol that's me

 

[Cheddahz]

I still think what worries me most about this project at the moment is the lack of narrative design documents. Are these around and I've just missed them? I feel like the most important element to any RPG is a good scenario and a good story.

He hasn't said anything about the story and scenario

 

[LSauchelli]

Am I the only one that finds annoying when a non-japanese says 'san'?

BTW, wasn't the original art from the asset store? I'm sure I saw the male model there before the ks started, and I'm sure it was from the asset store, but can't recall.

 

[Saren is Bad]

To be fair, they said the goal is Q4 2014 release, so that wouldn't be June.

You're right, saw July 2014 as the KS estimated date.

 

[sibarraz]

Quick, somebody call king.com for the use of the word saga