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OK nerds, you win. Song of Ice and Fire is gud.
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I really cared about the characters in this series, even the smallfolk or support cast people hear like to complain about. All that made it so much better. Painful, yes, but oh so good.
And I really don't think characters are killed off just because, I think it's fitting in a time full of wars and bloodshed. It get's irritating, maybe, but is people dying in war gimdark? I don't think so, and even if it is, it such hard-to-put-down grimdark.
Now, there ARE things that tick me off:
1)
Reviving and "reviving". Okay, it's a world full of magic, I get unCat, but the amount of characters that had "death" scenes and made it out okay is getting old. Arya, Davos (you might even count him twice, Blackwater explosion and Manderly's head on a pike as a cliffhanger, but I never believed that), Tyrion, Brienne, Jaime a little (at least the wording in the German version when he gets his hand cut of is something like "shocked, he saw the Arakh flash towards him" end of chapter).
2)
Warging theories. Bloodraven warged the Nightwach assassins killing Jon, people warg dragons, everyone warged Ghost, the Faceless Men are warging wargs warging wargs, warging left, right and center.
3)
Oh, GRRM compared the Others to the Sidhe in a letter to someone, lets google and wiki Sidhe and apply every changeling, folklore and other attribute to the ASoIAF world Others!
The fanbase has some really outstanding ideas about the world and little nuggets placed into the text, but some things are reaaaaaally reaching. Oh, did I forget that
everyone is a Blackfyre
I'm 72% done with ADWD, but the only characters I would truly rage over if they died before the final book 7 are
Tyrion and Arya.
And to lesser degree Jon, but only because we've invested so much time into his story arc.
I could care less if Dany dies, although it's seems pretty obvious that she'll survive ... or so I think.
And to lesser degree Jon, but only because we've invested so much time into his story arc.
I could care less if Dany dies, although it's seems pretty obvious that she'll survive ... or so I think.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
ASOS
Saw it coming a mile away when Danny said she'd give up one of her dragons, but it didn't change that her taking the City was awesome and she's a badass.
ADWD
On an IaF high right now. Martin you magnificent bastard
just read the bolton wedding chapter. Amazing for a number of reasons. First off, it's incredibly written. The descriptions of Winterfell, the Godswood, mist and Theon's reflections on his life are really gripping. Then I read the chapter thread over at Westeros and seems I'd missed the best thing : Frey pie. Manderly made Frey pie. I forgot what the rat cook thing meant, which was the dead giveaway. Doesn't get any better than this. One of the best chapters of the series. And the ending... my god.
On an IaF high right now. Martin you magnificent bastard
harriet the spy
Member
ASOS
What the fuck- Robb, catelyn and grey wind. Frey is now worse than joffrey to me.
Please don't spoil me what happens in the next books, but GRRM is going a bit too much in the direction of "I ll kill every character you like AND make sure everyone you HATE is still alive".
It's nice that he keeps you on the edge- unlike so many movies/books where you know the main characters will live - but doing it too much is starting to have a reverse effect.
Robb, Ned, Catelyn, two wolves - all dead. Even theon, who was not that bad.
Alive: Fuckface frey, bolton's bastard, gregor, joffrey, cersei, tywin. ah, i forgot. the fucking goat, and rorge, and pretty much most bloody mummers. Melisandre is alive, too, though it's a bit early to say if she is bad or not.
It's pretty simple, not a simple despicable character is in trouble.
AAAAHHHH!
Please don't spoil me what happens in the next books, but GRRM is going a bit too much in the direction of "I ll kill every character you like AND make sure everyone you HATE is still alive".
It's nice that he keeps you on the edge- unlike so many movies/books where you know the main characters will live - but doing it too much is starting to have a reverse effect.
Robb, Ned, Catelyn, two wolves - all dead. Even theon, who was not that bad.
Alive: Fuckface frey, bolton's bastard, gregor, joffrey, cersei, tywin. ah, i forgot. the fucking goat, and rorge, and pretty much most bloody mummers. Melisandre is alive, too, though it's a bit early to say if she is bad or not.
It's pretty simple, not a simple despicable character is in trouble.
AAAAHHHH!
DrForester
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I'm enjoying ASOS even though I've had quite a few things spoiled for me. I don't know how things will go down, but I'm far enough to have some educated guesses.
Other musings as I approach the halfway point...
Know that Rob and Catelyn die and a few more of Rob's men. Just got through the chapter where Catelyn's brother accepted the marriage to Frey, and figure there's going to be some betrayal shenanigans.
Other musings as I approach the halfway point...
Tension in the book is hit and miss, and some things just seem way to obvious. Davos becoming Stannis' hand was a clear direction for the character. The hound fighting in single combat had an obvious outcome. There was just so much attention on his leaving King's Landing, that I didn't think for a second he was going to die as soon as he resurfaced.
That being said, other things are less obvious. I have no clue where they are going with Arya. They can't really return her to her family because then her story would be over. Also wondering where they're going with the North and Jon and Samwell's narratives. Mormont dying was a bit too sudden, just came out of nowhere.
Another surprise was suddenly being able to use the "lets give Jamie a hand!" joke. Tyion and Sansa's marriage also came suddenly. I was expect that to be drawn out more.
Looking forward to the next Danerys chapter. Last i saw of her she had just gone all Queen Badass is Astapor.
That being said, other things are less obvious. I have no clue where they are going with Arya. They can't really return her to her family because then her story would be over. Also wondering where they're going with the North and Jon and Samwell's narratives. Mormont dying was a bit too sudden, just came out of nowhere.
Another surprise was suddenly being able to use the "lets give Jamie a hand!" joke. Tyion and Sansa's marriage also came suddenly. I was expect that to be drawn out more.
Looking forward to the next Danerys chapter. Last i saw of her she had just gone all Queen Badass is Astapor.
To be fair to Cersei, can't really blame the woman for being so paranoid. Aside from having tons of big secrets alot of people know about that could destroy her, being a woman in this society is pretty hard, esp. one that wants to be in power as badly as her.
Like most characters, but esp. for hers, adding her as POV added alot of sympathy points to the character.
Like most characters, but esp. for hers, adding her as POV added alot of sympathy points to the character.
When you go five years between books multiple times fans will get restless and conjure up crackpot theories.
I read all 5 books in about 6 weeks last summer. I was already sick of waiting/coming up with crackpot theories I would have laughed at half a year later.
Best chapters in the book IMO.
Personally I think it's the other way. She seems like a convincing scheming bitch until you can see inside her head -- and it's full of daddy issues and paranoia and false sense of selfworth that she props up by teasing men with sex
Her chapters are incredible and deliver on the comedy as well.
So in DwD...
Dany just turned down Quentyn and married Loraq. Dany's story in this book is... so weird. Most of her decisions come from wanting to do no harm and take the most idealistic approach, but it's not turning out that well. Getting your men up close to hundreds of diseased slaves because 'they are my children too' wasn't that smart. All her chapters prove is that she needs Jorah for counsel, because she's not doing that well without him.
She's also more impulsive and shallow than ever, basically mocking Quentyn who'd actually be her best bet for a powerful and reliable ally. But there's no problem in banging a psycho like Daario and then marrying that shady Loraq. Losing her focus on Westeros hasn't done her any good.
The next Dany chapter might as well be called 'The Headless Chicken' as far as I'm concerned. She's completely lost the plot.
In contrast to Jon, who managed to 'kill the boy' and position himself more as a real leader (although he's made some odd choices as well, like letting Val go). Dany on the other hand is nurturing the girl more than ever.
What's awesome though, is the 'tame' giant of the Nightwatch. The moment where Jon presented him to Selyse, Shireen and Patchface was pure slapstick, loved it. It felt so surreal to have characters like Jon Snow, Patchface, Shireen and a giant together.
She's also more impulsive and shallow than ever, basically mocking Quentyn who'd actually be her best bet for a powerful and reliable ally. But there's no problem in banging a psycho like Daario and then marrying that shady Loraq. Losing her focus on Westeros hasn't done her any good.
The next Dany chapter might as well be called 'The Headless Chicken' as far as I'm concerned. She's completely lost the plot.
In contrast to Jon, who managed to 'kill the boy' and position himself more as a real leader (although he's made some odd choices as well, like letting Val go). Dany on the other hand is nurturing the girl more than ever.
What's awesome though, is the 'tame' giant of the Nightwatch. The moment where Jon presented him to Selyse, Shireen and Patchface was pure slapstick, loved it. It felt so surreal to have characters like Jon Snow, Patchface, Shireen and a giant together.
DrForester
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Coming up on the last third of ASOS
Ygritte's death took me by surprise. I can't say I'm not happy that that plot is over, but I was expecting it to drag on for a whole
Enosh
Member
AFFC
I like that Daven Lannister guy, he just doesn't give a fuck, total dudebro, down to the beard and attitude
also they killed off Davos offscreen, wtf?
and Cersei lesbian scene, hope that's put into the TV series ^^
although I really question her ability to lead a kingdom, oh yeah sure lets arm a powerful organization like the faith, what could go wrong?
I am also starting to like the Greyjoys, well at least 2 of them, that priest guy and his brother, not the crazy one, the slightly less crazy one, Victorian or whatshisname
the martel chapters are getting annoying, "yo guys lets whine and complain about a perfectly valid form of duel that's we probably use also since it's used all over the kingdom" I get the complaining about the sister, but the red Viper guy brought his death on himself, its' not like someone forced him to fight the mountain
also they killed off Davos offscreen, wtf?
and Cersei lesbian scene, hope that's put into the TV series ^^
although I really question her ability to lead a kingdom, oh yeah sure lets arm a powerful organization like the faith, what could go wrong?
I am also starting to like the Greyjoys, well at least 2 of them, that priest guy and his brother, not the crazy one, the slightly less crazy one, Victorian or whatshisname
the martel chapters are getting annoying, "yo guys lets whine and complain about a perfectly valid form of duel that's we probably use also since it's used all over the kingdom" I get the complaining about the sister, but the red Viper guy brought his death on himself, its' not like someone forced him to fight the mountain
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
A Storm Of Swords: Completed.
Sure I'll have a few more things to mention as it sinks in. So much happened.
Now a question. I've heard people grumbling about AFFC and ADWD. What am I going into? No spoilers, but what brings these books down? I've been lead to believe that the stories happen concurrency, and some POV characters might not even show up throughout each of them. Is that the grumbling? That AFFC came out and it was only half the story, and there was a long wait for ADWD?
Two more books, then off to the big boys thread.
Wow.
Even with several things being spoiled, it lived up to the hype.
Things I saw coming:
-Jon becoming Lord Commander (though I honestly thought it too silly)
-Robb's death. Mentioned it in the show thread. But I honestly didn't expect any of the Kings to survive. I don't see Stannis surviving much longer.
Things I did not see coming:
-Catelyn's death. I guess I can say I was right about not thinking she died after the epilogue...
-Tywin's death. I accidentally spoiled myself on this. I knew he died and who killed him, but it didn't prepare me for how. I will say I was a bit disappointed that there was not more back and fourth before he killed him.
-Arya, the Lady of Badass
-Dany, the Queen of Badass
Other Thoughts:
Davos might be dead again... This happened at the end of book 2. Maybe this will become a running joke. I look forward to him magically being alive in book 4 and being feared dead at the end of book 4...
My worst fear is that Jon had a pretty good story arc, and is in a real good position now. So I imagine he's dead soon... screw you GRRM....
I think I am most engrossed in Bran and Arya's stories because they seem the most unpredictable.
Even with several things being spoiled, it lived up to the hype.
Things I saw coming:
-Jon becoming Lord Commander (though I honestly thought it too silly)
-Robb's death. Mentioned it in the show thread. But I honestly didn't expect any of the Kings to survive. I don't see Stannis surviving much longer.
Things I did not see coming:
-Catelyn's death. I guess I can say I was right about not thinking she died after the epilogue...
-Tywin's death. I accidentally spoiled myself on this. I knew he died and who killed him, but it didn't prepare me for how. I will say I was a bit disappointed that there was not more back and fourth before he killed him.
-Arya, the Lady of Badass
-Dany, the Queen of Badass
Other Thoughts:
Davos might be dead again... This happened at the end of book 2. Maybe this will become a running joke. I look forward to him magically being alive in book 4 and being feared dead at the end of book 4...
My worst fear is that Jon had a pretty good story arc, and is in a real good position now. So I imagine he's dead soon... screw you GRRM....
I think I am most engrossed in Bran and Arya's stories because they seem the most unpredictable.
Sure I'll have a few more things to mention as it sinks in. So much happened.
Now a question. I've heard people grumbling about AFFC and ADWD. What am I going into? No spoilers, but what brings these books down? I've been lead to believe that the stories happen concurrency, and some POV characters might not even show up throughout each of them. Is that the grumbling? That AFFC came out and it was only half the story, and there was a long wait for ADWD?
Two more books, then off to the big boys thread.
Enosh
Member
I personally really enjoy AFFC, although it certainly is slower than ASOS, then again need some breathing room after that book, didn't read a DWD yet
it has some great minor character and I don't have to listen to Kelly C be annoying every 3rd chapter so it's a win-win situation for me
I guess people that like Dany probably hate it
it has some great minor character and I don't have to listen to Kelly C be annoying every 3rd chapter so it's a win-win situation for me
I guess people that like Dany probably hate it
People were disappointed that some POV's didn't show up in AFFC, yes. That and the fact that AFFC is a bit slower paced, with one (or two) POVs a lot of people hate. People waited for years and expected a book like SOS... Result : disappointment
I didn't have to wait, read FFC immediately after SOS, and I really liked it. FFC reads more like an [general tone of the book]
aftermath to the events of SOS, so naturally it's not as action packed...
Monocle
Member
AFFC and ADWD are slower than the previous books, but a lot of important, entertaining, character defining things occur throughout both. The main problem is that those events are spread too thin in order to make space for world building that might have served the series more effectively in a side novel or short story collection, by allowing the main novels to proceed at the pace set by the first three.
An unfortunate consequence of GRRM's choice to spend a book and a half exploring the same stretch of time is how some characters are placed in holding patterns or abandoned for many chapters while comparatively dull plotlines are given the spotlight.
An unfortunate consequence of GRRM's choice to spend a book and a half exploring the same stretch of time is how some characters are placed in holding patterns or abandoned for many chapters while comparatively dull plotlines are given the spotlight.
Enosh
Member
well finished AFFC
well onto adwd, should get it in 2 days unless it will be loan out before I get there, might want to call the library tomorrow to reserve it
already dreading a book full of Kelly C and Bran chapters
really enjoyed it overall, like said a lot slower, but that's to be expected loved the Jamie, Cersei, Victorian and Aeron chapters, kinda started to admire the Greyjoys (apart from Euron, that guy is batshit insane), the Braine stuff kinda dragged on, but had some decent stuff in it, Martels and Sam? ugh less said about that the better.
on the stark front I am thinking to suspect Sansa is forgetting that she is actually a Stark... and Arya is blind, although i assume this will temporary, too stupid otherwise...
edit: oh and they killed off Davos off screen, wtf man, wtf?
on the stark front I am thinking to suspect Sansa is forgetting that she is actually a Stark... and Arya is blind, although i assume this will temporary, too stupid otherwise...
edit: oh and they killed off Davos off screen, wtf man, wtf?
well onto adwd, should get it in 2 days unless it will be loan out before I get there, might want to call the library tomorrow to reserve it
already dreading a book full of Kelly C and Bran chapters
General comments on your concern about Bran and Dany, that I'll spoiler tag just in case: ADWD
Don't worry too much about Bran, he only has a couple of chapters, and they take him to weird enough places that you should be able to find something interesting there, even if you don't like the character. As for Dany, if you already dislike her in book 3 brace yourself for hell. Everything you hate about Dany becomes worse, and is stretched over a staggering number of pages.
Also, with regard to AFFC:
I don't understand all the hate the Dornish chapters get. I really enjoy the characters, and the plot to crown Myrcella was genuinely suspenseful, but then it all basically is for nothing, the plot fails and it was just a big tease that went nowhere. Before that, though, I enjoyed reading the Dornish chapters.
Then, in ADWD (pretty big spoilers, don't click if you haven't read):
Quentyn comes along and ruins this goodwill by being super lame. And his plot all ends up coming to nothing, too, but maybe it will make more sense in hindsight in later books, if Dornish outrage over his death becomes a major point.
Enosh
Member
it's a hardcover version and the translation came out like a month ago, so it's basically a fresh of the printer version
thinking about it might be possible to find the english version somewhere
stealth edit: yep that one is cheaper, 23€ for the hardback, didn't find the paperback yet
I am in slovenia and don't have a credit card so amazon etc is out of the question
edit: found the paperback, 8€, free shipping, thanks for the suggestion of looking for an english version ^^
edit2: no wait the paperback version comes out august 28th it seems, well will think about what to do
thinking about it might be possible to find the english version somewhere
stealth edit: yep that one is cheaper, 23€ for the hardback, didn't find the paperback yet
I am in slovenia and don't have a credit card so amazon etc is out of the question
edit: found the paperback, 8€, free shipping, thanks for the suggestion of looking for an english version ^^
edit2: no wait the paperback version comes out august 28th it seems, well will think about what to do
Overall series spoilers, speculation
Based on theories of Jon's true parents, it seems highly unlikely that GRRM will kill him considering how much evidence supports the continuation of developing his character.
Enosh
Member
ADWD
well I see Dany would be a great queen were she ever to actually get the iron throne, so far she has managed to completely destroy the economy of a city, piss on their culture and customs, piss off half the population, left another city in the hands of former slaves turned slavers, pissed off pretty much every neighboring city and got to war with a at least half of them, all in what, less than half a year?
keep her the fuck away from westeros
looks like Arys children are 2 for 3 as far as the Targ madness thingy goes
keep her the fuck away from westeros
looks like Arys children are 2 for 3 as far as the Targ madness thingy goes
This book is brought down by 3 facts:
1- It is not ASOS. Lot of people expected Storm of Swords: Stormer Harder, yet instead of this they got a set up novel. People easily forget that in order to make ASOS work, GRRM had to write two previous books in order to set the pieces before putting them in motion.
2- The worst horrible editing decision ever. So, instead of intermixing POV's, going back and forth between Westeros and beyond the Narrow Sea following a chronologic order, let's break with a completely proven formula and divide the points of view into two separate books, ADWD for the Soythoros and FFC for Westeros. Bullshit of the highest order. I eagerly await for a "Director's cut" verion of the books that mix the chapters properly
3- The 5 year gap. Martin originally intended to limit the saga to 3 books and end it in a certain wedding. Then he decided that it would be better for it to span in two different trilogies, separated by a 5 year gap, so the Stark kids would be all grown up on the second one. Then he realized that such a massive elipsis in a hugely complex plot such as his would be pretty much impossible to be understood by the reader, and thus, he had to change lot of his original plans and think of a way of filling the 5 year gap. While you can clearly see that Martin is sure of how the saga begun and how he wants it to end, you can also sense that he is having a hard time deciding how to do it so.
Ok, finished ASOS. And now I must correct myself. Fucking awesome.
"You raped her. You murdered her. You killed her children"
ASOS spoilers.
Tyrion crossbowing Tywin. Tyrion choking Shae in Tywin's bed with his own chains. Badass Red Viper with his poisoned spear. Zombie Cat exacting revenge. Queen of Thorns poisoning Joff. Lord Commander Snow. Stannis on the Wall. Littlefinger saving Sansa and ending Lysa.
What an amazing second half. Jaime's character development was off the charts.
madness =/= stupidity Worst decision she ever made was banishing Jorah. She needs his advice there more than ever
Worst decision she ever made was banishing Jorah. She needs his advice there more than evermadness =/= stupidity
She's getting good advice from Barristan, too, that she just refuses to listen to, and he's too respectful and deferential to ever force her hand. If she had just married Quentyn and made for Westeros like Barristan suggested, she'd be in a way better place now. Now everything's fallen apart and even if she gets it together and gets to Westeros, she'll have to deal with a Dorne that will never forgive her.
In fairness,
she'd have an easier time running Westeros than she did Meereen. A lot of the problems were because she tried to impose her westeros views on a completely different culture.
Yes.
I'd be surprised if it's not either of those two.
...Oh crap, that means it won't be either of those...? Grrm is the ultimate troll
...Oh crap, that means it won't be either of those...? Grrm is the ultimate troll
I'm just starting A Storm of Swords in a couple weeks (when I'm through with my current read), but...
Holy shit, seriously? He divided the narratives completely into separate books? While separate stories were taking place on each continent, they did overlap and have events on one impact the either. Plus, focusing on just one would sap all the narrative momentum out of the other side of the story. WTF
Holy shit, seriously? He divided the narratives completely into separate books? While separate stories were taking place on each continent, they did overlap and have events on one impact the either. Plus, focusing on just one would sap all the narrative momentum out of the other side of the story. WTF
Yeah, he split it sort of like that. Feast has the events in
King's Landing, Dorne, Vale and Iron Islands, with a few chapters not in these areas
everywhere above the Neck and Essos. Although at about 2/3 of the book, we start to get some chapters from Feast areas again, since that's roughly where the books meet and Dance pushes the story a bit further (chronologically) than Feast, so some Feast stuff end up appearing.
I honestly believe it's better to go into Feast knowing what's in there so you at least curb your expectations after Storm. My first read was a bit dull, but i loved it on a re-read, and if I could bundle Feast and Dance as one book, like it was meant to be, I'd put it above Storm.
AGoT spoilers
Just finished the book today.
Just finished the book today.
Did anyone else feel that the whole bloodmagic / magical rebirth of dragons and blood of the dragon stuff being true come out of left field? I was just left with a "...wat" expression on my face. Also can't believe they just offed Ned like that. Although apparently a lot of people hate Ned...
Nobody hates Ned, but some people think he is hopelessly naive. And yes, unexpected shit is supposed to be unexpected, that's part of the charm of the books. After a while you learn to recognize Martin's style though.
Enjoy the next book and beware spoilers!
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
There are people who don't think this?
His naivety was part of his downfall, not its entirety.
Had attack compose herself better, had sansa not unwittingly betrayed him, and had littlefinger not wittingly betrayed him, it would have all worked out for him.
spiderman123
Member
Dance with the Dragons.
I have a huge question, is
I have a huge question, is
Is John Snow dead? Cold means death right?!
There's been so much invested into his character, no way he's dead...at least not yet. Unless Ghost takes over his POV.
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