• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Photo shows New Jersey students playing "Jews vs. Nazis" drinking game

Status
Not open for further replies.
I think people who think something should be done here are looking at the wrong things due to the toxic nature of the world right now. Leave the kids alone. At that age you want to shock and apall people. Trying to supress that behavior is a misunderstanding and a mistake. I don't think it's a lack of education or a lack of reinforcement that's wrong here, hyper-sensitivity and the need to correct freedom of expression is what's wrong here imo
 
Some of the posts in this thread are far more horrifying than anything these kids did. Some of you would make for good little compliant citizens/enforcers in an Orwellian nightmare state.

Regardless of how this is a ridiculous exaggeration of anything actually expressed thus far, there's a difference between enforcing that everyone worships a fascistic leader, and enforcing that no-one should express racist beliefs. Opinions are not fungible, they are not all equally worthy of praise or condemnation, enforcement or elimination.

And I know that liberals hate the idea that certain opinions shouldn't be expressed, but that's the reason liberalism has never been all that effective in fighting actual oppression.
 

akira28

Member
Seeing budding liberal authoritarians (?lol)simultaneously decry shock humor due to the historical context of the jokes while tacitly advocating for mob vigilantism in the same breath is always a sight to behold. The cognitive dissonance must be staggering.

well I for one am not advocating for getting out of my chair at the moment. maybe in 20 minutes, but that's to go see BvS, not to go vigilant on some college kids who need a serious talking to, demerits, and forced history/sensitivity/social justice classes until they puke.

but if you want to feel persecuted, go ahead.

Regardless of how this is a ridiculous exaggeration of anything actually expressed thus far, there's a difference between enforcing that everyone worships a fascistic leader, and enforcing that no-one should express racist beliefs. Opinions are not fungible, they are not all equally worthy of praise or condemnation, enforcement or elimination.

And I know that liberals hate the idea that certain opinions shouldn't be expressed, but that's the reason liberalism has never been all that effective in fighting actual oppression.

what is fighting oppression to you and is it more than just a concept over personal freedoms?

funny how everyone's so ready to threaten us with the authoritarian bogeyman, and at the same time find comfort in authority focused society.
 
But intent dictates what you can expect from people in the future. A committed anti-Semite will in the future discriminate against Jews in consequential ways, by not hiring them, assaulting them, or supporting political violence against them. On the other side of the spectrum, a kid with poor taste and a lack of judgement that was overshadowed by the desire to be edgy in front of his peers will just be embarrassed by himself. It's not like intent is irrelevant to the extent of a problem.

Ignorance begets hate — a friend of mine wrote about the vice president of the Islamic center in her college town. He was a Marine vet and was formerly anti-Muslim after getting back, to the point he said he wanted to blow up a mosque. After taking the chance to learn about the culture, he changed his tune entirely and went on to be director of the student Muslim group on that campus. I can send a link if you want to read more about it.

That said, we can't know someone's intent. When it comes to assessing/condemning actions themselves outside a court of law, intent has no true consequence. An accidental killing still has the same result as a purposeful one — since we're not sentencing the persons responsible in this thread, it is entirely fair to call out an action for what it is. People are free to make further personal judgments of the ones responsible.

But you do understand the difference between your ignorance/insensitivity and actual malice, I'm assuming. Hate and malice should be rallied against, Ignorance and insensitivity should be identified and amended. Or, at least tolerated and ignored at times in the case of insensitivity, because hey, not every insensitive remark requires a march against it.

In a relative sense, I would imagine that even though it might've hurt, that wheelchair bound person you're talking about would prefer your insensitivity over receiving actual malice. And there should be room there for you to improve and for that person to help you improve without animosity, as opposed to how a hypothetical handicapped-hating Westboro Baptist equivalent should be treated.

In this thread, people are taking umbrage with others saying this shouldn't be written off as "kids will be kids," just because these students are (maybe) not "racist/antisemitic/prejudiced to the core."

Whether they intend to hurt others or perpetuate antisemitism doesn't make it more or less damaging. Saying "that's a really fucked up thing to do," doesn't sentence them to life in prison. You can only conclude it's less harmful if you think the only way racism/antisemitism hurts other people is if the victims know they're purposefully being othered/subjugated/discriminated.

If I responded to the wheelchair user I was talking with by saying "well, I didn't mean it in a bad way," it wouldn't change that I was perpetuating the notion that people who use wheelchairs are defined by that use, or that they can't get out of the chair. It wouldn't change that what I said was ignorant — I'm sure they'd feel better knowing I didn't intend to belittle them, but it wouldn't change that what I said was pretty much wrong.

You serious? Stupid teens playing a game they think is funny in the same way a lot of people think the dark comedy of South Park or Cards Against Humanity is funny and not realizing how playing this game can be offensive to certain people.


vs.

Actually being anti semitic and hating Jewish people / being a Nazi sympathizer.

When it comes to assessing an individual action (which, in this thread, is all we have to go on with these students) and the effects of said action, it's irrelevant.
 

braves01

Banned
I wonder what level of involvement the Jewish kids had in this game? On one hand, it's obviously a huge problem if they felt pressured into not saying anything about this game. On the other, if they had no issues with the game I don't think it's really the blog author's place to tell them how they should feel about their own cultural history. It's a bit presumptuous and paternalistic.
 
I wonder what level of involvement the Jewish kids had in this game? On one hand, it's obviously a huge problem if they felt pressured into not saying anything about this game. On the other, if they had no issues with the game I don't think it's really the blog author's place to tell them how they should feel about their own cultural history. It's a bit presumptuous and paternalistic.

Once this stuff gets out like it always does, it stops being only about these individuals and how they feel about their own cultural histories.

You're right about the possibility of them feeling pressured to go along with it, and since we can't know for sure, it's better to err on the side of caution, right?
 

akira28

Member
Sorry, I don't understand what you mean by "more than just a concept over personal freedoms", could you clarify?

does fighting oppression to you mean improving the lives of all those who are socially and culturally and politically oppressed. Or do you consider it to be a necessary principle on the personal level for the singular person, 'no one should have their personal freedoms and liberty limited where it does not conflict with the law'?
 
I mean I was a teenager once too, I told my fair share of racist jokes and even defended my ~right~ to do so by invoking ~freedom of speech~. If someone had taken me aside and given me an extremely stern talking to and/or some comprehensive anti-racist education I'd have stopped much sooner than I did.

So yeah, they're dumb kids, but maybe we should try to make kids much less dumb much sooner
 

EloquentM

aka Mannny
I'm curious how the defense would proceed if the game was slaves vs Slave masters with equally horrible rules. Kids will be kids though.
 
Once this stuff gets out like it always does, it stops being only about these individuals and how they feel about their own cultural histories.

Of course, this stuff doesn't always get out. Most of the time it doesn't. Some of us who were similarly distasteful at that age or knew people who were don't think it's accurate at all to ascribe thoughts of malice or bigotry to a bunch of teenagers for something inappropriate they did amongst themselves.

I'm curious how the defense would proceed if the game was slaves vs Slavs masters with equally horrible rules. Kids will be kids though.

That's not an entirely fair comparison to make, either. There's a much different cultural context in the United States surrounding making light of slavery and anti-black racism than there is to making light of Nazis or the Holocaust.

I mean I was a teenager once too, I told my fair share of racist jokes and even defended my ~right~ to do so by invoking ~freedom of speech~. If someone had taken me aside and given me an extremely stern talking to and/or some comprehensive anti-racist education I'd have stopped much sooner than I did.

So yeah, they're dumb kids, but maybe we should try to make kids much less dumb much sooner

But would you have really needed anti-racist education, or education about how to deal with and talk to others? Would it be reasonable to assume that the teenage you was a racist who saw the error of their ways, or an edgy shithead who grew out of typical juvenile behavior?
 
I'm curious how the defense would proceed if the game was slaves vs Slavs masters with equally horrible rules. Kids will be kids though.

I would hope the parents, police, and school would deal with them.

These are minors, not celebrities or elected officials, or heads of business or whatever.
 
does fighting oppression to you mean improving the lives of all those who are socially and culturally and politically oppressed. Or do you consider it to be a necessary principle on the personal level for the singular person, 'no one should have their personal freedoms and liberty limited where it does not conflict with the law'?

The former, I don't see this sort of thing in an individualistic way at all. In fact I think to do so irreparably damages the effectiveness of any anti-oppression struggle.

And I don't think "personal freedoms and liberty" is a good basis to conceptualise any kind of social issue, in so far as I don't think such things exist outside the context of a greater society

EDIT: which isn't to say that I think we should restrict people's freedom for no reason. I still think that "anything not forbidden is allowed" is better than "anything not allowed is forbidden". More that the classical liberal tactic of starting from the individual and building from there is both ahistorical and ineffective at actually fighting oppression
 

140.85

Cognitive Dissonance, Distilled
Regardless of how this is a ridiculous exaggeration of anything actually expressed thus far, there's a difference between enforcing that everyone worships a fascistic leader, and enforcing that no-one should express racist beliefs. Opinions are not fungible, they are not all equally worthy of praise or condemnation, enforcement or elimination.

And I know that liberals hate the idea that certain opinions shouldn't be expressed, but that's the reason liberalism has never been all that effective in fighting actual oppression.

See, this right here is far more dangerous than misguided, tasteless immaturity.
 

akira28

Member
Shao Khan, come on down. Who is the vigilante? All I see on the contra side is disappointment and people saying the kids need to learn better.

So where is this liberal fascism or liberal jack booted thuggery, or liberal authoritarianism or whatever they like to call it those days? And why the exaggeration to vigilantism when people are showing disapproval? do you approve that much? Does your heart swell at this display of Freedom and Liberty?


edit: he does feel strongly enough about it to make some pretty stiff accusations...
 

Dylan

Member
If it turned out that every single kid participating was jewish I wouldn't be surprised at all. Dark humour is dark humour and kids love to shock.


There are lots of other things going on with high school kids; bullying, mental health problems, addiction epidemics, lack of funding for schools, poor quality of education, obesity, etc that are far more deserving of our concern.
 
If it turned out that every single kid participating was jewish I wouldn't be surprised at all. Dark humour is dark humour and kids love to shock.


There are lots of other things going on with high school kids; bullying, mental health problems, addiction epidemics, lack of funding for schools, poor quality of education, obesity, etc that are far more deserving of our concern.
Can anyone top this "what about"?
 
But would you have really needed anti-racist education, or education about how to deal with and talk to others? Would it be reasonable to assume that the teenage you was a racist who saw the error of their ways, or an edgy shithead who grew out of typical juvenile behavior?

I wasn't a "racist" in that I had negative or even stereotypical ideas about Jews or other ethnicities, far from it. But that's not the be all and end all of racism. If it had been hammered into me that simply not being racist wasn't enough and that making shitty racist jokes is still terrible and reinforces racism, even if unintentionally, I'd have realised what I was doing was wrong.
 

Kinyou

Member
I'm curious how the defense would proceed if the game was slaves vs Slave masters with equally horrible rules. Kids will be kids though.
Isn't that a bit different though because slavery is part of the USA's history? Similarly I imagine reactions would be angrier if this had happened in Germany.
 
Of course, this stuff doesn't always get out. Most of the time it doesn't. Some of us who were similarly distasteful at that age or knew people who were don't think it's accurate at all to ascribe thoughts of malice or bigotry to a bunch of teenagers for something inappropriate they did amongst themselves.



That's not an entirely fair comparison to make, either. There's a much different cultural context in the United States surrounding making light of slavery and anti-black racism than there is to making light of Nazis or the Holocaust.



But would you have really needed anti-racist education, or education about how to deal with and talk to others? Would it be reasonable to assume that the teenage you was a racist who saw the error of their ways, or an edgy shithead who grew out of typical juvenile behavior?

Why do you think saying "what they did was antisemitic/racist/etc." is some kind of permanent brand? Or that it's mutually exclusive to saying "they were being edgy shitheads"?

What is it about antisemitism/racism/sexism that makes people want to replace it with some more general qualifier?

If someone calls these kids racist/antisemitic for doing something racist/antisemitic, they're not barring them entry to heaven, or damning their soul to hell. It's an observation. If those kids don't want that observation to stick, then they can change what they're doing.

There are some people getting up in arms about the notion of having their names released. I get having a problem with that, and I don't think minors should have their names published in any news story, but you can't conflate any assessment of this situation that goes beyond "kids will be kids," as advocating them being tossed to the wolves, if that's what your issue with this is.
 

140.85

Cognitive Dissonance, Distilled
No, many people here are speaking out against those of you who feel your supposedly unimpeachable adolescent years give you the authority to make broad assumptions about the values and worth, both now and in all future endeavors, of a bunch of teenagers who played a drinking game with shock humor. Whether or not you realize it, you're enabling a much bigger problem in your attempt to stamp out what can far more reasonably be associated with youthful irreverence and tactlessness than actual anti-Semitic beliefs and behavior.



This guy gets it.



This guy doesn't.

Precisely.
 
Why do you think saying "what they did was antisemitic/racist/etc." is some kind of permanent brand? Or that it's mutually exclusive to saying "they were being edgy shitheads"?

What is it about antisemitism/racism/sexism that makes people want to replace it with some more general qualifier?

If someone calls these kids racist/antisemitic for doing something racist/antisemitic, they're not barring them entry to heaven, or damning their soul to hell. It's an observation. If those kids don't want that observation to stick, then they can change what they're doing.

There are some people getting up in arms about the notion of having their names released. I get having a problem with that, and I don't think minors should have their names published in any news story, but you can't conflate any assessment of this situation that goes beyond "kids will be kids," as advocating them being tossed to the wolves, if that's what your issue with this is.
Yeah this is another "calling something/one racist is worse than doing racist things."
 

EloquentM

aka Mannny
Isn't that a bit different though because slavery is part of the USA's history? Similarly I imagine reactions would be angrier if this had happened in Germany.
Why does racism need to be conducted in the country of origin to be relevant?
 

140.85

Cognitive Dissonance, Distilled
And this is yet more evidence that Orwell's shabby excuse for a novel has much more harm to political discourse than any critics at the time could have feared

Thanks for making it crystal clear that you're not to be taken seriously. Carry on.
 
The holocaust is part of US history too, with IBM's participation and the turning away of the St. Louis

This is really reaching.

Why does racism need to be conducted in the country of origin to be relevant?

You were asking what the reaction would be. The cultural and historical context surrounding atrocities/attitudes is certainly relevant.

Why do you think saying "what they did was antisemitic/racist/etc." is some kind of permanent brand? Or that it's mutually exclusive to saying "they were being edgy shitheads"?

What is it about antisemitism/racism/sexism that makes people want to replace it with some more general qualifier?

Because those words, besides being heavily charged, also define a set of beliefs that aren't even necessarily present here. I don't think it's accurate to say that someone who makes a Holocaust joke is an antisemite or even that a holocaust joke in itself is antisemitic, or that arranging a set of cups in the shape of a swastika is an act of solidarity with Nazis.

People make Nazi jokes all the time, the punchline/undercurrent of those jokes is almost never "Heh, sure is funny that all those people died, huh?"
 

Jonm1010

Banned
Yeah this is another "calling something/one racist is worse than doing racist things."
Assume away. It is everyone's right.

I assume this is a mixture of ignorance, immature humor, insensitivity, and likely some racism. I'm just not going to assume my assumption is 100% correct because I know I am building it up based on my own experience, education and biases. Same goes for the posters claiming this is benign or relatively harmless. It may be. It may not be.

The only line I draw is when those assumptions are then used as justification for actionable responses. Like the couple posters earlier that expressed a desire to see these kids thrown to the mob justice wolves based on their assumptions of motive and context.
 
This is really reaching.



You were asking what the reaction would be. The cultural and historical context surrounding atrocities/attitudes is certainly relevant.



Because those words, besides being heavily charged, also define a set of beliefs that aren't even necessarily present here. I don't think it's accurate to say that someone who makes a Holocaust joke is an antisemite or even that a holocaust joke in itself is antisemitic, or that arranging a set of cups in the shape of a swastika is an act of solidarity with Nazis.

Arranging a set of cups in the shape of a swastika is not not an act of solidarity with the Nazis, though.
 
Trying to supress that behavior is a misunderstanding and a mistake. I don't think it's a lack of education or a lack of reinforcement that's wrong here, hyper-sensitivity and the need to correct freedom of expression is what's wrong here imo

"It's not the holocaust jokes that are the problem, it's any consequences for their overt racism and the people offended by this that are the problem!"
 

Kinyou

Member
Why does racism need to be conducted in the country of origin to be relevant?
I didn't say that it has to be in the country of origin to be considered racism. But you can't deny that historical context plays a role for how people perceive it. For example would German students have a much harder time claiming ignorance.
 
I didn't say that it has to be in the country of origin to be considered racism. But you can't deny that historical context plays a role for how people perceive it. For example would German students have a much harder time claiming ignorance.

Unless American education has depreciated that much, no American student should be able to claim ignorance on the holocaust.
 
"It's not the holocaust jokes that are the problem, it's any consequences for their overt racism and the people offended by this that are the problem!"


I think that they should be held accountable to the police, their parents, and the school and a mod told me I'm 'caping' for them.


Seriously, what EXACTLY do you think should be done to these minors after the police, their parents, and the school have punished them?
 
I think that they should be held accountable to the police, their parents, and the school and a mod told me I'm 'caping' for them.


Seriously, what EXACTLY do you think should be done to these minors after the police, their parents, and the school have punished them?
Nothing. Which is what most people are saying. We're just appropriately reacting to people showing us who they are. Others then get mad like people can't personally express opinions on these students' personal expression.
 
Unless American education has depreciated that much, no American student should be able to claim ignorance on the holocaust.

It's not ignorance, it's just that it's not something that feels quite so emotionally charged to Americans. If they were totally ignorant about the Holocaust the joke wouldn't even work in the first place, everyone would just be confused.

It's like if you made a drinking game centered around the rape of Nanking. Most high schoolers in America would be like "wtf?" If you tried that shit in China it wouldn't fly.
 
I think that they should be held accountable to the police, their parents, and the school and a mod told me I'm 'caping' for them.


Seriously, what EXACTLY do you think should be done to these minors after the police, their parents, and the school have punished them?

I wouldn't say "done to", and I'd actually suggest this as a replacement for any punishment at all especially by the police, but extensive anti-racism education would probably be a good idea. But then I think that should be true for all kids from an early age
 
It's not ignorance, it's just that it's not something that feels quite so emotionally charged to Americans. If they were totally ignorant about the Holocaust the joke wouldn't even work in the first place, everyone would just be confused.

It's like if you made a drinking game centered around the rape of Nanking. Most high schoolers in America would be like "wtf?" If you tried that shit in China it wouldn't fly.

Honestly there really is nothing that will be emotionally charged to most Americans. From a historical context.
 
I think that they should be held accountable to the police, their parents, and the school and a mod told me I'm 'caping' for them.


Seriously, what EXACTLY do you think should be done to these minors after the police, their parents, and the school have punished them?

If it were my kid I'd ground him for a year. If it were my student I'd make them write an essay about why what they did was some stupid bullshit and make it worth half their grade. If I were that kid's coach I'd bench him for the rest of the season and keep them on probation for the rest of their sporting career.

But none of them are my kids so It's not my call. I'm going to guess it was some pretty laissez-faire parenting that let a boozy, racist party for teenagers to exist in that basement in the first place. So I'm going to guess that these kids won't brush up against consequences anywhere near that severe and I can and will do nothing to make it worse than what they get.

I just find the dancing around that r-word extremely disingenuous. It's gross watching posters call it anything else, even though it's been laid out to them as simply as a swastika. If one were to take some honest measurements of the posts in here you'd probably find some heavy lifting done by posters overstating the reaction to their party game as the main pillar in their arguments against this phantom 'brigade' breaching and crushing their social media presence, job prospects, lives, etc.

"It's just kids being dumb kids what's the big" is a lovely muffling device when one does not want to hear or think about the normalization of hatred in youngsters.
 
Honestly there really is nothing that will be emotionally charged to most Americans. From a historical context.

you know that isn't true errare

any time a white person is charged with racist accusations, that gets emotionally charged from said white person accusing the other of being the real racist for pointing it out
 
Because those words, besides being heavily charged, also define a set of beliefs that aren't even necessarily present here. I don't think it's accurate to say that someone who makes a Holocaust joke is an antisemite or even that a holocaust joke in itself is antisemitic, or that arranging a set of cups in the shape of a swastika is an act of solidarity with Nazis.

People make Nazi jokes all the time, the punchline/undercurrent of those jokes is almost never "Heh, sure is funny that all those people died, huh?"

If your chief concern is with someone's beliefs or intentions, then you can sweep anything under the rug and ignore it. Everyone is better than their actions on some level.

Doesn't change the effects of their actions. It's probably unfair to call them racist, and leave it at that. However, people will certainly begin to associate them with their actions, however, and probably treat them accordingly. If they continually are given passes for their behavior, it'll become a part of them, whether they're displaying "solidarity with Nazis," in their heart-of-hearts or not.

I don't typically call someone, for example, racist (i.e. "you are racist,") because I can't know whether they purposefully internalize racist beliefs. Calling an given action racist (or whatever syntax is applicable) is fair game though, since that's what actually has effect on the world around this person.

That said, if someone calls someone a racist who's walking/talking like a racist, I'm not going to direct my attention to the person making an observation. It does nothing to benefit the apparent racist.

If it were my kid I'd ground him for a year. If it were my student I'd make them write an essay about why what they did was some stupid bullshit and make it worth half their grade. If I were that kid's coach I'd bench him for the rest of the season and keep them on probation for the rest of their sporting career.

But none of them are my kids so It's not my call. I'm going to guess it was some pretty laissez-faire parenting that let a boozy, racist party for teenagers to exist in that basement in the first place. So I'm going to guess that these kids won't brush up against consequences anywhere near that severe and I can and will do nothing to make it worse than what they get.

I just find the dancing around that r-word extremely disingenuous. It's gross watching posters call it anything else, even though it's been laid out to them as simply as a swastika. If one were to take some honest measurements of the posts in here you'd probably find some heavy lifting done by posters overstating the reaction to their party game as the main pillar in their arguments against this phantom 'brigade' breaching and crushing their social media presence, job prospects, lives, etc.

"It's just kids being dumb kids what's the big" is a lovely muffling device when one does not want to hear or think about the normalization of hatred in youngsters.

well put, especially the last part.
 

Jonm1010

Banned
The girl who reported this is a nerd. This is going to destroy her social life.
That is the unfortunate other side of this too.

I don't know if her intent was to incite the Internet against these classmates of hers, but either way, the possible consequence of this story blowing up is her paying that cost from those perceiving they are administering justice from a different angle.

It's the dangerous risk of putting yourself out there in this fashion. Even when completely justified. The Internet can be a scary place to be.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom