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[elrechazado]

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-palmdale-deputy-shooting-20170622-story.html

Another example of how the police can be completely reckless over real or imagined threats to their safety, but citizens are simply collateral damage at best, and casual murder victims at best. Sharing a Reason post on it, because I like their comment about five officers being unable to control a situation, and the knowledge that nothing will likely happen as a result.

http://reason.com/blog/2017/06/23/cops-try-to-shoot-a-dog-kill-a-teenager

"From the sheriff's account the shooting appears to be accidental. That doesn't mean it wasn't preventable. Any thorough investigation would attempt to explain why, if Garcia-Muro was able to restrain the dog on his own, even for a brief time, couldn't five trained law enforcement professionals do so without the use of a firearm in the early morning in a dark residential area.

Department and district attorney policies on shooting dogs do not encourage finding those answers. The leeway given to law enforcement officers puts bystanders at risk."

 

[The Jackdog]

i wish i could make arguably the biggest mistake possible at my job and never lose it

 

[Vincent Alexander]

i wish i could make arguably the biggest mistake possible at my job and never lose it

This is an interesting way to look at it. And true.

 

[Trojita]

The teenager restrained the animal and brought it to the rear of the complex, which was around a corner, Bergner said. Meanwhile, the deputies retreated from the home to call for backup and medical units, who arrived and checked on the bitten deputy's injuries.

At some point, the pit bull broke free and charged at the deputies again.

Bergner said the dog was a full-grown male that weighed 60 to 65 pounds and was 5 to 7 feet away from the deputies when they opened fire.

Garcia-Muro's aunt, Amber Alcantar, said deputies told her the teen was shot while trying to stop the dog from attacking deputies a second time. She said she heard a knock on her door in the early morning. It was Garcia-Muro's friend, who was frantically looking for the boy's mother.

Ehhhhh this is more complicated than it seems.

1. Pit Bull already bit an officer
2. Was restrained by teen but broke free again
3. Was charging at them 5-7 feet away

 

[Duxxy3]

i wish i could make arguably the biggest mistake possible at my job and never lose it

Have I got the perfect opportunity for you!

 

[shadowsdarknes]

So damn trigger happy. Wtf

 

[Yoshimitsu126]

You can't make this stuff up.

 

[Sunster]

Is there a documentary or something about police training and how it works? Because I'm starting to think it's just like a stay over summer camp they all go to. across the lake from cheer camp with a big dance and a talent show at the end. Then they are handed their guns as they board the bus to go home.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Ehhhhh this is more complicated than it seems.

1. Pit Bull already bit an officer
2. Was restrained by teen but broke free again
3. Was charging at them 5-7 feet away

Yea. Those are important details.

 

[The Jackdog]

This is an interesting way to look at it. And true.

isnt that what we always hear when this happens?

"they are doing the best they can"
"they are doing their jobs, its a hard job"
"police have the hardest jobs out there, mistakes happen"

okay. i get that. 100% on board with that.

but it IS a job, and they utterly failed at it, and now someone is dead/shot because of it.

maybe the position they are in doesnt constitute murder or more specifically jail time, can argue with the blue lives matter crowd about that all day im sure.

but its a fucking job. and they failed at it. these cops NEVER lose their jobs. transferred, administrative leave, etc. No, id say a big part of being a cop is, at the bare minimum, dont shoot innocent people. if you fail that one, whats the justification for you still being employed?

Ehhhhh this is more complicated than it seems.

1. Pit Bull already bit an officer
2. Was restrained by teen but broke free again
3. Was charging at them 5-7 feet away

so to my point, at least, this is complicated. but their job is to asses situations properly and at LEAST be trained, skilled, and smart about firing a weapon. this guy failed that test. i bet hes not getting fired.

 

[Slayven]

When you think everything is a nail, how can you not use a hammer?

 

[ColdPizza]

Ehhhhh this is more complicated than it seems.

1. Pit Bull already bit an officer
2. Was restrained by teen but broke free again
3. Was charging at them 5-7 feet away

Even so, every time you pull your gun you should be assessing your surroundings.

 

[Trojita]

Yea. Those are important details.

Plus OP should have mentioned that they didn't point their gun to shoot the teen or shoot the teen directly when missing the dog. The shots ricocheted off the ground and hit the teen in the chest while another bullet ricocheted off the ground and hit a deputy in the leg.

It's a tragedy more than anything.

 

[Quotient]

Is there a documentary or something about police training and how it works? Because I'm starting to think it's just like a stay over summer camp they all go to. across the lake from cheer camp with a big dance and a talent show at the end. Then they are handed their guns as they board the bus to go home.

The fact that there are so many guns in the USA most likely plays a role in the behavior of the fire-first mentality. In this particular situation I'm not sure what other strategy they could have employed, pit bulls can be vicious dogs especially when they believe they are under attack/defending property.

 

[Skellig Gra]

I wonder what other countries law enforcement officers do when attacked by a random dog.

 

[elrechazado]

Ehhhhh this is more complicated than it seems.

1. Pit Bull already bit an officer
2. Was restrained by teen but broke free again
3. Was charging at them 5-7 feet away

There's a reason I used the word reckless, and not murder or something else inflammatory, and also clearly stated in the commentary that it was accidental. It's no less disturbing for all of the facts and indicative of the differing standards of behavior and results that are foreseeable results of what we allow police to do.

Plus OP should have mentioned that they didn't point their gun to shoot the teen or shoot the teen directly when missing the dog. The shots ricocheted off the ground and hit the teen in the chest while another bullet ricocheted off the ground and hit a deputy in the leg.

It's a tragedy more than anything.

Nothing you are saying undermines my point in posting this. You seem to assume I am making an argument that I am not making.

 

[kirblar]

I would strongly, strongly recommend reading the entire backstory here. This is horrible and tragic, but I don't think the officers were in the wrong to try and kill the dog when it was almost to them the second time. It had already attacked them and bitten someone and was about to do it again. It was a legitimate threat to their safety and they had little time to react.

 

[Trojita]

I wonder what other countries law enforcement officers do when attacked by a random dog.

The other countries simply ban the dog breeds in question

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breed-specific_legislation

 

[AdventureRacing]

Ehhhhh this is more complicated than it seems.

1. Pit Bull already bit an officer
2. Was restrained by teen but broke free again
3. Was charging at them 5-7 feet away

Plus OP should have mentioned that they didn't point their gun to shoot the teen or shoot the teen directly when missing the dog. The shots ricocheted off the ground and hit the teen in the chest while another bullet ricocheted off the ground and hit a deputy in the leg.

It's a tragedy more than anything.

Is there no way for multiple trained police officers to stop the dog from attacking without using a gun? That should be a last resort really. The fact that the bullet ricocheted is irrelevant, that's the risk you take when you fire a gun with people around.

Nothing you said remotely changes my opinion that a gun was totally unnecessary in this situation or at least needed to be used with a lot more caution.

 

[HawksWinStanley]

Ehhhhh this is more complicated than it seems.

1. Pit Bull already bit an officer
2. Was restrained by teen but broke free again
3. Was charging at them 5-7 feet away

These along with the fact that they think a skip round got him (along with another officer) just makes me think this was a really unfortunate accident.

 

[ArkkAngel007]

Even so, every time you pull your gun you should be assessing your surroundings.

Who says they did not or had the time too? How fast does a dog with 60 odd lbs of momentum close 5-7 feet?

I'm not saying that there shouldn't be an investigation, as why didn't officers ensure the dog was secured completely before the second attack, but this isn't the wanton killing of a bystander with no regard.

Edit: The dog already mauled an officer and had less than a second of closing distance on it's following attempt. How wasn't a gun necessary?

 

[BriGuy]

Why don't officers have mace for this reason? Or you know, the plethora of other reasons where deadly force shouldn't be the default solution.

 

[Skellig Gra]

Is there no way for multiple trained police officers to stop the dog from attacking without using a gun? That should be a last resort really. The fact that the bullet ricocheted is irrelevant, that's the risk you take when you fire a gun with people around.

Nothing you said remotely changes my opinion that a gun was totally unnecessary in this situation or at least needed to be used with a lot more caution.

It is a pit bull. Those things were bred to kill. They shouldn't be pets to begin with but I can understand the fear of that thing as it would kill you very quickly if you didn't stop it. That doesn't make what happened ok but they need to use a stun gun or tazer or something on it.

 

[gaugebozo]

Plus OP should have mentioned that they didn't point their gun to shoot the teen or shoot the teen directly when missing the dog. The shots ricocheted off the ground and hit the teen in the chest while another bullet ricocheted off the ground and hit a deputy in the leg.

It's a tragedy more than anything.

None of the shots hit the dog, so they had to restrain it some other way anyway.

Part of an officer's responsibility in firing a weapon HAS to be the concept of collateral damage (including officers!). Why did they not have any other way to restrain a dog with them, and ready?

 

[Somnid]

When you think everything is a nail, how can you not use a hammer?

I think it's the opposite. They have a hammer so everything is a nail. Why pull a gun first? Not a club, a taser or pepper spray to subdue a dog. Literal bear deterrent is a big pepper spray, it'll work. But because we obsess on gun usage, training and culture, it's the first thing we reach for.

 

[Sunster]

Who says they did not or had the time too? How fast does a dog with 60 odd lbs of momentum close 5-7 feet?

I'm not saying that there shouldn't be an investigation, as why didn't officers ensure the dog was secured completely before the second attack, but this isn't the wanton killing of a bystander for kicks like it's being made out to be.

literally nobody ITT is saying that or alluding to that.

It is a pit bull. Those things were bred to kill. They shouldn't be pets to begin with but I can understand the fear of that thing as it would kill you very quickly if you didn't stop it. That doesn't make what happened ok but they need to use a stun gun or tazer or something on it.

pit bulls make excellent pets.

 

[elrechazado]

Who says they did not or had the time too? How fast does a dog with 60 odd lbs of momentum close 5-7 feet?

I'm not saying that there shouldn't be an investigation, as why didn't officers ensure the dog was secured completely before the second attack, but this isn't the wanton killing of a bystander for kicks like it's being made out to be.

Who has made it out to be that, besides you and others creating a straw man?

Thread title is literally that they did not intend to kill the teen, and all of the text recognizes it is an accident. Stop making up garbage.

 

[boxter432]

Plus OP should have mentioned that they didn't point their gun to shoot the teen or shoot the teen directly when missing the dog. The shots ricocheted off the ground and hit the teen in the chest while another bullet ricocheted off the ground and hit a deputy in the leg.

It's a tragedy more than anything.

maybe don't shoot without knowing the surroundings?
maybe don't miss if you do? a pitbull isn't an insect, its a relatively large target. multiple missed shots by "trained" professional shooters? 2 officers missed with 8 shots???
no other techniques are possible? kicking, spray, 5 adult males can't deal with anything anymore?

 

[The Jackdog]

Who says they did not or had the time too? How fast does a dog with 60 odd lbs of momentum close 5-7 feet?

I'm not saying that there shouldn't be an investigation, as why didn't officers ensure the dog was secured completely before the second attack, but this isn't the wanton killing of a bystander for kicks like it's being made out to be.

i dont think its that, at all. i do think its probably bad practice to have your first reaction be OH SHIT SHOOT MY GUN.

IMO, those are the kind of behaviors and actions that shouldn't be in a cop.

like maybe im way off base, but i dont think this was some kind of murder. i just think this guy is a shitty cop, that probably shouldnt be a cop

 

[Tonedeff]

I'm not expecting any sort of justice for this.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Is there no way for multiple trained police officers to stop the dog from attacking without using a gun? That should be a last resort really. The fact that the bullet ricocheted is irrelevant, that's the risk you take when you fire a gun with people around.

Nothing you said remotely changes my opinion that a gun was totally unnecessary in this situation or at least needed to be used with a lot more caution.

Agreed. Withdraw and call animal services. They literally get paid to deal with this on a daily basis.

Context of the situation matters: This was a noise disturbance call. Not a hostage situation. Not life or death. Fall back and let a dog catcher go catch a dog.

i dont think its that, at all. i do think its probably bad practice to have your first reaction be OH SHIT SHOOT MY GUN.

IMO, those are the kind of behaviors and actions that shouldn't be in a cop.

like maybe im way off base, but i dont think this was some kind of murder. i just think this guy is a shitty cop, that probably shouldnt be a cop

What is department policy for an attacking dog? I'm pretty sure it's "shoot the thing". Not to justify it but to point out the problem isn't "bad individual officer" But the wrong training being given.

 

[SpaceWolf]

I can't imagine how much this would haunt a person.

 

[norm9]

Teen probably smoked some pot in the past week or so, if I was to guess.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Teen probably smoked some pot in the past week or so, if I was to guess.

Wouldn't shock me they claim the kid let the dog go on purpose.

 

[Trojita]

maybe don't shoot without knowing the surroundings?
maybe don't miss if you do? a pitbull isn't an insect, its a relatively large target. multiple missed shots by "trained" professional shooters? 2 officers missed with 8 shots???
no other techniques are possible? kicking, spray, 5 adult males can't deal with anything anymore?

Are we going with the magical "why didn't they shoot the arm" defense? Shooting a gun isn't like some magical autoaim. A moving target like that of smaller mass than a human is difficult to hit.with 100% accuracy.

There's a reason I used the word reckless, and not murder or something else inflammatory, and also clearly stated in the commentary that it was accidental. It's no less disturbing for all of the facts and indicative of the differing standards of behavior and results that are foreseeable results of what we allow police to do.

Nothing you are saying undermines my point in posting this. You seem to assume I am making an argument that I am not making.

I'm just saying the facts should have been cited in the OP. I also think an owner subduing a dog (and he later lost control of it) is much different than a non-owner doing it when it is 5-7 feet or less from lunging at them.

 

[Trojita]

None of the shots hit the dog, so they had to restrain it some other way anyway.

Part of an officer's responsibility in firing a weapon HAS to be the concept of collateral damage (including officers!). Why did they not have any other way to restrain a dog with them, and ready?

The dog was hit and retreated. It is mention in the linked article.

 

[The Jackdog]

Agreed. Withdraw and call animal services. They literally get paid to deal with this on a daily basis.

Context of the situation matters: This was a noise disturbance call. Not a hostage situation. Not life or death. Fall back and let a dog catcher go catch a dog.

What is department policy for an attacking dog? I'm pretty sure it's "shoot the thing". Not to justify it but to point out the problem isn't "bad individual officer" But the wrong training being given.

oh i agree! These issues are most likely hugely systematic.

 

[ColdPizza]

Who says they did not or had the time too? How fast does a dog with 60 odd lbs of momentum close 5-7 feet?

I'm not saying that there shouldn't be an investigation, as why didn't officers ensure the dog was secured completely before the second attack, but this isn't the wanton killing of a bystander with no regard.

Edit: The dog already mauled an officer and had less than a second of closing distance on it's following attempt. How wasn't a gun necessary?

Imagine shooting at a small, fast-moving target and the unlikelihood of you actually hitting it. You have to account for all of those stray shots that can ricochet off pavement or go into people's houses or cars. With 5 officers there, I don't think the first instinct should be to shoot. I think better training could have worked here, but maybe I'm wrong. I don't know.

 

[MUnited83]

Police in my country seem to handle dangerous dogs without shooting any guns just fine, but seemingly in the US shooty shooty bang bang is the solution for everything😕

 

[Byakuya769]

Bullets don't act this way in video games, what gives??? It's as if guns are highly dangerous instruments of death that should only be used by people with some semblance of restraint.

Police in my country seem to handle dangerous dogs without shooting any guns just fine, but seemingly in the US shooty shooty bang bang is the solution for everything��

It's dangerous over here. In the US, the dogs might have guns.

 

[Mael]

This is like that Simpsons episode where they kill buffalos by the dozens and even when they throw an apple randomly it kills a buffalo.
Police in America is so bad at its job that even when they try to avoid shooting people they still do.
That this even happens is a testament to how utterly ridiculous the situation is.

 

[norm9]

I can't imagine how much this would haunt a person.

Not as bad as being dead. This was a tragic end to the teen and the dog.

 

[gaugebozo]

It is a pit bull. Those things were bred to kill.

It may be true that's how the breed started, but Pit Bulls are naturally kind dogs and don't bite any more than other breeds:

In a 2014 literature review of dog bite studies, the American Veterinary Medical Association (AVMA) states that breed is a poor sole predictor of dog bites.[29] Controlled studies do not show pit bulls to be disproportionately dangerous. While pit bull-type dogs are more frequently identified with cases involving very severe injuries or fatalities than other breeds, the review suggests this may relate to the popularity of the breed, noting that sled dogs and Siberian Huskies compose a majority of fatal dog attacks in some areas of Canada.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit_bull

I've never owned one, but friends do and they're amazingly friendly and kind to their children. (They are rambunctious and high energy though).

 

[Trojita]

Agreed. Withdraw and call animal services. They literally get paid to deal with this on a daily basis.

Context of the situation matters: This was a noise disturbance call. Not a hostage situation. Not life or death. Fall back and let a dog catcher go catch a dog.

While I'm just going off of what the police said happened which of course could not be 100% accurate, the news report states that they did withdraw, most likely to the street where their cop cars were. They were trying to get medical attention for the bitten officer. This is when the dog supposedly came out of nowhere for round two.

 

[polyh3dron]

i wish i could make arguably the biggest mistake possible at my job and never lose it

Best first reply.

 

[F34R]

I never had to shoot a dog while on duty (or off for that matter). Then again, this situation isn't exactly how it has always been for every time I had to deal with an attacking dog.

If I were there, I wouldn't shot due to where the kid was in relation to where the dog was. If the kid is in the same line of fire, even though beyond where the dog was, you have to remember to know where you're shooting, and know what is beyond your target.

Why don't officers have mace for this reason? Or you know, the plethora of other reasons where deadly force shouldn't be the default solution.

I've never had mace work on a dog. That's anecdotal at best, but the fact remains. I've sprayed OC spray ("mace") a half dozen times on dogs to control them, and it never worked. We had to come up with a different strategy. A noose/pole, and a can of dog food was something I had on my checklist of items in my trunk.

Tazer has worked, and there were times it didn't work.

 

[boxter432]

Are we going with the magical "why didn't they shoot the arm" defense? Shooting a gun isn't like some magical autoaim. A moving target like that of smaller mass than a human is difficult to hit.with 100% accuracy.
.

what? no, where did I say they have auto aim? don't put words in my mouth, but if you are going to shoot a device purely aimed to maim and kill living things, you better have a good reason and better not be inaccurate.

2 officers missed EIGHT shots. WTF are you doing firing like in a neighborhood. it's ridiculous.

 

[Kettch]

Who says they did not or had the time too? How fast does a dog with 60 odd lbs of momentum close 5-7 feet?

I'm not saying that there shouldn't be an investigation, as why didn't officers ensure the dog was secured completely before the second attack, but this isn't the wanton killing of a bystander with no regard.

Edit: The dog already mauled an officer and had less than a second of closing distance on it's following attempt. How wasn't a gun necessary?

Because there was a fucking teenager next to it?

Good thing none of the officers got bitten again and we only ended up with a dead kid! That could have been so much worse!

 

[gaugebozo]

The dog was hit and retreated. It is mention in the linked article.

You're right. Last time I read the Reason article.

 

[trixx]

i wish i could make arguably the biggest mistake possible at my job and never lose it

Right? Yeah "Sorry, it was an accident" doesn't cut it sometimes