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[Professor Beef]

Also it's interesting how you guys keep saying ST has no overlap with SFV when old school players like Graham Wolfe who cut their teeth on ST are doing very, very well in V.

But you tell me to grind IV instead of ST.

That math doesn't add up.

Hasn't he also not really touched SF4 in general and only stuck with ST? Because that's a bad example you're using, if so.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

It doesn't change the fact that IV probably isn't the best game to play to prep for V.

I've played enough IV. Why the pressure to keep playing it? Just odd.

 

[Professor Beef]

It doesn't change the fact that IV probably isn't the best game to play to prep for V.

I've played enough IV. Why the pressure to keep playing it? Just odd.

It's still not a good example. You brought up a guy who only plays ST and said that he's great in SFV, but you could also bring up Poongko or Infiltration who are players who started with SF4 who are also doing well in SF5.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

It's still not a good example. You brought up a guy who only plays ST and said that he's great in SFV, but you could also bring up Poongko or Infiltration who are players who started with SF4 who are also doing well in SF5.

This doesn't mean that ST is a bad choice to prep for SFV though, does it?

 

[Prototype-03]

I think we have derailed this thread enough. Just play ST, you seem adamant about it. I don't really mind just as long as you're having fun with it.

I mean, if you REALLY want basics, I'd recommend dive kick. But it seems that it's not really basics you want but speed? But it's not just speed, you want small combos? But also, you're not a beginner? It's conflicting information you want and trust me, we all want to help. Remember, we're not against you.

Have fun man. That's all it matters.

 

[Professor Beef]

This doesn't mean that ST is a bad choice to prep for SFV though, does it?

I never claimed it was/wasn't. Just pointing out that you used a faulty example.

For the record, I don't think playing ST just to train for SF5 is a good idea. But I also am not some sort of authority on the subject, nor have I ever played ST competitively, so what do I know?

 

[DunpealD]

I never claimed it was/wasn't. Just pointing out that you used a faulty example.

For the record, I don't think playing ST just to train for SF5 is a good idea. But I also am not some sort of authority on the subject, nor have I ever played ST competitively, so what do I know?

Time to digivolve to Professor Street Fighter.

How well something transfers to other games really depends on the player. Whether it is successful or not, one will see when the game is out.

 

[ptown]

I'm no SF vet, but SF2 era games like ST do not have throw teching. You can probably guess how frightening that is for both players once someone is in throw range and the kind of playstyle or mentality that might encourage (do or die). This is after you survive the fireball barrage (that doesn't seem to be as much of an issue in SFV with all the anti-fireball V-skills for example).

ST is brutal. SFV seems slower paced, more refined, less dirty and probably the most "honest" game (the game seems to focus heavily on footsies and fights return to neutral or new footsie). The closest game at this time in pace and mechanics is probably SFIV. If I had to put in one week of some SF to prepare for SFV, I'd just play SFIV and disregard all the SFIV specific mechanics and try to play SFV style (e.g. don't backdash, don't focus attack/cancel, no ultras).

It doesn't matter if you win or lose, just try to see how far you can get playing SFV style with no SFIV-specific techniques.

 

[BumblebeeCody]

I think we have derailed this thread enough. Just play ST, you seem adamant about it. I don't really mind just as long as you're having fun with it.

I mean, if you REALLY want basics, I'd recommend dive kick. But it seems that it's not really basics you want but speed? But it's not just speed, you want small combos? But also, you're not a beginner? It's conflicting information you want and trust me, we all want to help. Remember, we're not against you.

Have fun man. That's all it matters.

Ultra SFIV is a good starting point though since it is a heavily footsie based game now. SFV is definitely slower and seems to have toned back a lot of the hype factor. SFV, I think, is probably a really good starting point for the series overall. I wouldn't recommend any of the "pixel" Street Fighter games since you'll get murdered in those.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

Ultra SFIV is a good starting point though since it is a heavily footsie based game now. SFV is definitely slower and seems to have toned back a lot of the hype factor. SFV, I think, is probably a really good starting point for the series overall. I wouldn't recommend any of the "pixel" Street Fighter games since you'll get murdered in those.

You'll get murdered if you play USFIV right now. Over 2000 games, 16% win rate. Nothing but losses. If you're getting into ANY SF right now, and wins are on your menu, SFV is the only choice. If you're trying to learn any SF rightnow you'll get murdered.

Nothing but facts.

So pick your poison.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

I think we have derailed this thread enough. Just play ST, you seem adamant about it. I don't really mind just as long as you're having fun with it.

I mean, if you REALLY want basics, I'd recommend dive kick. But it seems that it's not really basics you want but speed? But it's not just speed, you want small combos? But also, you're not a beginner? It's conflicting information you want and trust me, we all want to help. Remember, we're not against you.

Have fun man. That's all it matters.

This is pretty simple to understand.

It's basics I'm trying to master. AA-ing is honestly the only basic skill I struggle with. Half reaction not being muscle memory half I can't do a dp with a pad well and find doing it with a thumb uncomfortable aka I fucking hate pad and I'm switching. I prioritize speed right now because ST is fast as fuck. Why is speed important? Because fights can end in mere seconds. If fights end in mere seconds, this means you have to implement strategy at a faster rate. If you have to react at a fast time, that increases reaction time and helps adjusting to slower games (like IV or V) easier. It also means that, again, if a round can sometimes last merely 10 seconds, that every action counts. One mistake in ST and you're dead. This means you learn to play a game where you try to minimize mistakes as a mere necessity, which could help me be a better player by pure adaptation. As a newer player, I often do risky things. I'm trying limit this.

I'm not sure how that's not obvious.

I never mentioned small combos. I originally posted a Domination 101 article that was about mitigating risk and finding ways to make players play risky to open them up for combos. Long combos have nothing to do with any of this.

I'm not sure how this is not obvious.

In regards to my skill status, I have no idea. I've been playing SF since 92, but only started playing seriously since EVO 2015. I have posted replays, critiqued them, I've compiled information resources, and studied them. I'm more closer to intermediate now and I'm not sure what that has to do with the thread that I have been using for replay critiques and study.

 

[Astarte]

Learning Blazblue has been a pretty trying experience. I've been trying my hardest to learn Relius and I've gotten some sort of handle on his neutral game, but my main "training partner" is someone who can vaporize me in 15 seconds with Kagura. Those mixups are horrifying.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

Ultra Street Fighter IV Farewell Casuals featuring Trykt (reupload)

 

[Anne]

Learning Blazblue has been a pretty trying experience. I've been trying my hardest to learn Relius and I've gotten some sort of handle on his neutral game, but my main "training partner" is someone who can vaporize me in 15 seconds with Kagura. Those mixups are horrifying.

There are some pretty universal ways to try and deal with Kagura mix up. If you need help with defending in Blazblue you should experiment more with barrier and barrier + jump out. Opens up a lot of doors and leaves room to do other stuff. Kagura is actually fairly weak to jump out without meter.

 

[Crab Milk Mickey]

Great Dom101, but this quote in particular:

"As a little aside, this is why I tend to be more interested in tactics generally than in combos alone. Combos never CREATE an opportunity, theyre merely ways of taking advantage of existing opportunities. A prime example is again the Japanese MVC2 players- in the few chances they got to land a combo, they put on a real exhibition. However, in 25 matches, I can count the number of such opportunities on one hand. Combos are only any good when youve already broken down an opponents defense- and against good players, that dont come easy. As such, the threat that goes with combo skills can be entirely neutralized simply by keeping yourself out of position to get hit with them in the first place. This makes things like positioning, setups, tricks, etc, primary in a way that combos (while still important) can never be."

http://shoryuken.com/2013/07/29/domination-101-critical-breakdown/

This paragraph articulates very well why I'm much more interested in the decision-making behind opportunities rather than the actual pay-off. Guess that also explains why Virtua Fighter (5) manages to invest me more than something like Tekken, since the former encapsulates the final sentence in a more apparent fashion.

Also, what's a more basic game then SF4? Because I can tell you that SF5 isn't going to be more basic than ST.

Honestly, almost every Street Fighter preceding IV (including its vanilla version) has been more straight-forward in comparison, with the gap only increasing per new edition. IV always came off as a convoluted game to me on a mechanical level while also uncharacteristically placing more emphasis on combos, excluding the rare sequel like Alpha 3.

 

[Tizoc]

If one could devote a few minutes (15 max by ny estimate) garou motw played thru an emu like final burn alpha would be a good game to practice fg basics with
The game is available thru humblebundle.com
Set it to aes and spend a few hours in training mode to get a handle of inputs etc
That way one can get accustomed to the basics and work from there

 

[hitsugi]

Wow over a page about someone's preference of what to play to fundamental it up before SFV...

.....

For the record, the best thing to play to prepare for SFV is probably what every "top player" has been playing for months now, which is whatever version of the beta they can get working. Graham is doing well in SFV, but make no mistake - he has also played a shitload of it.

 

[Astarte]

There are some pretty universal ways to try and deal with Kagura mix up. If you need help with defending in Blazblue you should experiment more with barrier and barrier + jump out. Opens up a lot of doors and leaves room to do other stuff. Kagura is actually fairly weak to jump out without meter.

Ah, is that true? Alright, I'll definitely try that jumping/barrier. I've just been intimidated because every match I've had with him ended with me on the receiving end of a neverending fuckfest. Thank you.

 

[Anne]

Ah, is that true? Alright, I'll definitely try that jumping/barrier. I've just been intimidated because every match I've had with him ended with me on the receiving end of a neverending fuckfest. Thank you.

Yeah, just experiment with it vs stance things, try not to get caught by 5B. He can catch you for doing it too much with like 2D~B or catching jump start up, but unless he gets a super hard call out or has 50 meter it's not the end of the world. Just remember if you do try to jump out and you just end up stand blocking you can always go back to crouch blocking or try to jump out at a later point instead.

If you encounter a mix up in BB and you have time to experiment, the first question is usually "Do I have to actually block this or can I just upback barrier?" You might be surprised how often upback barrier is the right answer. At that point they might try to stop you from jumping but that opens up other doors.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

This paragraph articulates very well why I'm much more interested in the decision-making behind opportunities rather than the actual pay-off. Guess that also explains why Virtua Fighter (5) manages to invest me more than something like Tekken, since the former encapsulates the final sentence in a more apparent fashion.

Yeah, it's a really great quote.

I also like this part:

ust waiting this tiny fraction of a second can be a big part of diffusing critical points. This is because reacting at the earliest possible time (as soon as you come out of blockstun, for instance) makes you predictable in a certain sense. If you wait a moment beyond that most obvious point, the move you wanted to do again becomes very difficult to predict. If theres a continuum of possible times at which to do a move, predicting when it will come within that continuum is extremely difficult, unless you make it easy for them, by doing as soon as you possibly can (at time 0, essentially). Waiting can also help to diffuse (or mask, rather) critical points that you need to intentionally create, while on the offensive. If you’re going to try a meaty attack, special throw, etc, after someone is, say, getting up from a knockdown, your attack becomes FAR less effective if you make your intentions clear right away. If for instance, you hunker down immediately next to their fallen body as soon as they’re knocked down- for all practical purposes you’re telling them what your intentions are (by getting into a spot you can’t easily leave, without throwing your advantage away entirely). However, you could have the same attack plan (go for a meaty attack as they get up), but this time just stutter-step a bit- maybe jump randomly (if you’re character’s fast enough to do it), and stick out a few jabs. You can see a related, more obvious version of this problem in scrubby ST Ryu players. When you finally charge up a super in ST (back when it was actually a big deal to have a super), scrubs get so excited about having it that their whole gameplan shifts to focus on firing it off. Where before they might have been playing a controlled, fluid game, they become drooling morons when the meter fills up. Its so common that it actually has a name- “superitis”. The super really is a useful weapon and genuine threat, but not if youre going to fire it off at the earliest possible moment, and the opponent knows it. The value of this waiting is obvious when you notice how always doing things ASAP renders you predictable. Dancing around or just waiting a fraction of a second may sound like idiocy, but if it’s enough to inject a moment’s hesitation into your opponent’s response (and it is), then it really pays off. And what have you risked in doing it while they’re down? Nothing at all.

I have a problem with letting all out and unleashing a super even if I'm not sure it'll hit through desperation. I see they've got a life lead, and I freak out. I wanna win and I lose patience.

 

[FACE]

You can do whatever you want. But is ST the game you want to keep playing? Or is it just for "basics" only? You can learn basics in Smash, GG, BB, Marvel, Skullgirls, MKX, etc. From what I hear SF5 has input eating V-Triggers. Backdash will also have invulnerability. They have counter assaults. You're still going to learn that system.

Backdashes aren't invincible in SF5, one of the better changes from 4 in my opinion.

 

[Dremark]

It doesn't change the fact that IV probably isn't the best game to play to prep for V.

I've played enough IV. Why the pressure to keep playing it? Just odd.

All the stuff I read/watched abouy preping for 5 actually said to use 4 to prep with. Off the top of my head Gootecks and Floe specifically suggested it. I liked Floe's reasoning for it specifically, he pointed out a bunch of things about the game that he (and likely other people used to dismiss the game) and pointed out by putting in the effort to deal with the stuff people hate in that game is a good way to break that sort of lazy mindset.

Ultimately though it doesn't really matter that much, fundamentals are fundamentals, they transition from game to game. I learned the most about fundamentals from playing Tekken and that's about as different from SF as you can get. The game I've been playing the most leading up to SFV is League of Legends and even stuff from that crosses over. Flow even used that in an example in one of his visa butI had already noticed an improvement in my lol play when I started reading up on footsies.

Anyway, I think as long as you're focusing on playing to learn it doesn't really matter, if ST is working for you and/or you're enjoying it that should work. You'll have to relearn/unlearn specifics moving into SFV but that goes for pretty much anything.

Also as I previously mentioned Floe is currently doing a series on learning fighting games on his YouTube channel and Viscont is doing a series on SFV on BrokenTier and both are early but looking pretty promising if anyone wants to check them out. Not sure if they came up earlier.

 

[galvenize]

You'll get murdered if you play USFIV right now. Over 2000 games, 16% win rate. Nothing but losses. If you're getting into ANY SF right now, and wins are on your menu, SFV is the only choice. If you're trying to learn any SF rightnow you'll get murdered.

Nothing but facts.

So pick your poison.

I did exactly that.

I bought ultra right after evo in order to prepare for V. Put in around 300 hours maining the pink haired lady. I am now ready.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

Ultra Street Fighter IV Farewell Casuals featuring Trykt (reupload)

Critique time.

1st fight - Chun Li (me) vs Sagat (Trykt)

Round 1

First ten seconds are crucial. He's trying to push me into the corner or get a nice hit his knee. I predicted this, I wanted to space myself a bit and then go for the offensive. Successful Kikoken hit right after match start. 00:27 - 00:30 - After a few pokes on my part to remind him to stay out of my zone, he does a clean jump in. I block, and try to counter a few. Realizing I'm pressing too many buttons I resort back to blocking. He lets out a whiffed fireball. It's my opportunity to take over the offensive. I hit him with a standing HK for the whiff. I love kicking people in the face. I love you Chun. We both reset to neutral. He tries to break the lull by pushing me with a kick. I block, and retort with a forward MK to hopefully punish it. It blocks. Seeing that he's now playing defensively, I take this as a chance to hopefully open him up. He blocks every hit. I forget that he has the life lead and go for risk. I know he's going to react after that string, so I jump while he's busy trying to hit me on the ground. I get some hits from my jump in but he ultimately reverses my combo and takes the upper hand. I should have played it safe, make him whiff his punch, and then go for a throw and corner carry during the knock down. Exchanges are made, we fight for positioning. I'm trying to hit my Ultra but nothing is coming out during his fireball pressure. Turns out I forgot that I was doing ST's Super input and not USFIV's Ultra.

Round 2

Armed with more knowledge and angry at my lack of patience last round, I try to play more conservatively this round. Unfortunately, he senses this. After a kikoken that starts the round we're both in crouch position just WAITING for the other make a move. I sense he's not doing anything, so I try to go for a throw, which I should have done LAST ROUND. He punishes me but I don't give up. I almost manage to get him into the corner with

but I end up getting cocky and do a dumb ex hazenshu. I try to recover from fast so he doesn't do a reset - his fireball game is deadly. I have a tremendous life lead at this point and he is not going quietly. I somehow managed to pull off a round win. The most important takeaway from this round is how I gave up so much life in the first place. Going half cocked trying to finish off the round, pressing the wrong buttons all contribute and I'm so embarrassed. This is what Seth means by critical points. DON'T LET THEM GET AN ADVANTAGE.

Round 3

Round 3 is rough. For one thing, I forget - AGAIN - that I'm not playing ST and hit HK at the end instead of KKK. I'm also pressing too many buttons. Pressing buttons is a big contributor my life loss in fights, and defense wise it's the thing I've improved the most in the past few weeks but some times old habits die hard. Thankfully I remember that SFIV's Ultra ender is KKK and go for it. With the knowledge I can still win, I aim playing it conservatively. The whiffed HK hazenshu almost gets me murdered, but he thankfully doesn't react to that. So I go for broke and set him up with a cr HK, he tries to punish, I go for an EX hazenshu. I'm really proud of the next few steps of play, nabbing me the win.

Strengths:

Sometimes I DO have the capability to read my opponents thoughts and set them up. Given less than a year of play that makes me feel so good.

Really decent meter management and I always had an ex when I really needed it to win.

Solid pokes. God, I love st HK. KICK EM IN THE HEAD.

Weaknesses:

Too many buttons when there shouldn't be any at all.

Some times I autopiloted, like the time on round 2 when I threw out the kikoken dashed in. This is the critical point where I start losing my life lead drastically.

Bad fireball defense.

FORGETTING THAT IT'S NOT ST AND DOING ST'S SUPER INPUT. lmao

Solid match, could be better. Lots of sloppiness.

Other fight critiques continued tomorrow.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

I did exactly that.

I bought ultra right after evo in order to prepare for V. Put in around 300 hours maining the pink haired lady. I am now ready.

I used to play Poison too. I played her nearly 100 hours. It didn't work out. I only switched to Chun in November. I've been playing her only three months, so I'm a bit behind because I switched characters.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

All the stuff I read/watched abouy preping for 5 actually said to use 4 to prep with. Off the top of my head Gootecks and Floe specifically suggested it. I liked Floe's reasoning for it specifically, he pointed out a bunch of things about the game that he (and likely other people used to dismiss the game) and pointed out by putting in the effort to deal with the stuff people hate in that game is a good way to break that sort of lazy mindset.

Ultimately though it doesn't really matter that much, fundamentals are fundamentals, they transition from game to game. I learned the most about fundamentals from playing Tekken and that's about as different from SF as you can get. The game I've been playing the most leading up to SFV is League of Legends and even stuff from that crosses over. Flow even used that in an example in one of his visa butI had already noticed an improvement in my lol play when I started reading up on footsies.

Anyway, I think as long as you're focusing on playing to learn it doesn't really matter, if ST is working for you and/or you're enjoying it that should work. You'll have to relearn/unlearn specifics moving into SFV but that goes for pretty much anything.

Also as I previously mentioned Floe is currently doing a series on learning fighting games on his YouTube channel and Viscont is doing a series on SFV on BrokenTier and both are early but looking pretty promising if anyone wants to check them out. Not sure if they came up earlier.

SFV actively punishes most SFIV strategies: mashing lights, no backdash invincibility, it doesn't have similar OS set ups, even using meaties is different due to button priority. It has no focus attack, and many IV players rely on focus. Whoops. You'll rarely see me use focus in any of my matches in IV, even against fireball characters. Even Gootecks and Mike Ross flat out say that they predict SFIV players to have a hard time. They, including Combofiend and Alex Valle, are predicting that OG's (old SF players) will be having a much easier time. Saying that SFIV is great for preparing for V is pretty dependent on how you play it, and how most play IV, I'm going to say for most it isn't. I've gone out of my way to avoid most of SFIV's core mechanics such as focus. Though I do take advantage of lights and backdash invincibility. That said, any SF should help, but IV has so many mechanics and ways to avoid shit that learning fundamentals comes a bit harder depending on the character. Thankfully in SFIV I play a no nonsense character for the most part, so I had to learn as a principle.

Gootecks and Floe are suggesting you play SFIV because it's the most current and easily accessible game. Not because it's the most viable SF to play to prep for SFV.

In any case, I already have prepped for SFV with IV. It's what I've been doing since EVO. But for now, I want to wean off bad IV habits (mashing lights, backdash invincibility - guess what, ST has no backdash) so I don't end up spending day 1 trying to wean off bad IV habits.

 

[Ardenyal]

Thread feels less welcoming to new people and more stupid FGC infighting and bickering.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

Thread feels less welcoming to new people and more stupid FGC infighting and bickering.

This is only on the last page. New people are completely welcome. I agree the bickering is stupid. It's easily as puzzlnig to me, and trust me when I say I'm probably more infuriated than you.

 

[FindMyFarms]

Cindi, game specifics aside, as long as you adhere to the footsie triangle I laid out, the reasoning behind it, and the critical thinking that accompanies it you'll be fine.

The advice is there, I'm not going to try to convince you to take it. Everything I'd said still stands, and all the differences that you posted between 4 and 5 have actually nothing to do with the core pace and feel of the game in neutral. If you feel like the all the articles you posted are what you need to get better, then this thread isn't quite necessary if all you're going to do is shoot down what other people have to offer. I am sincerely telling you that a lot of those things are quite obtuse and not direct. Also sometimes failing to acknowledge what is actually going on. Please don't continue to argue, and let's stick to specifics. I'll be more than happy to simply start talking about 5 directly!

Anyhows, if you, or anyone else reading this has some questions, feel free to fire away and I'll do what I can to help!

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

Cindi, game specifics aside, as long as you adhere to the footsie triangle I laid out, the reasoning behind it, and the critical thinking that accompanies it you'll be fine.

The advice is there, I'm not going to try to convince you to take it. I stand by everything I've said so far. If you feel like the all the articles you posted are what you need to get better, then this thread isn't quite necessary if all you're going to do is shoot down what other people have to offer. I am sincerely telling you that a lot of those things are quite obtuse and not direct. Also sometimes failing to acknowledge what is actually going on.

Anyhows, if you, or anyone else reading this has some questions, feel free to fire away and I'll do what I can to help!

Huh? All I did was post was a helpful quote that could be useful to other people. The reason I have an attitude is because you came into my thread, completely dismissed EVERYTHING, with the caveat that I just follow your advice. Crab Milk Mickey found it a useful quote too. So who exactly determines whether posting a quote from a Seth Killian article makes the thread unnecessary? You? I was reading the article outside and wanted to post it for others. Other people have offered lots of help. The problem is your tone, which feels like you're bossing me around. Even now you're telling me it's pointless posting articles, when the article in question got you to respond with this:

The broadest answer is to always take note of WHEN, WHERE, and WHY your opponents press buttons, and then have an appropriate counter in those scenarios. This is most immediately tangible when it comes to footsies, but applies to every aspect of a game.

First off, the footsie triangle :

Pokes > Walking Forward > Whiff Punish > Pokes

If you think someone is just walking up to you, you poke them.

If you think someone is going to poke, you stay outside that range and whiff punish their poke.

If you think someone is looking to whiff punish, you simply walk forward. In order to whiff punish, they must stay outside your poke range. If you're walking forward, and they want to maintain that range outside of your poke range, they must in return walk backwards, thus losing ground.

NOW

With that being said, here's a very easy tournament example of how to "open someone up" also how to brainlessly scrub bust someone in the opening rounds. I'll use a ryu mirror in sf4 as an example, primarily with basic, non system mechanic tools.

The first thing I'll do is stand right outside of ryu's cr. mk range. If he whiffs it, I'll sweep to punish. This will happen maybe 2 or 3 times. Eventually they'll get the message that they can't press that button at that range and get a little gun shy. Now I can walk up a little bit closer and it's my turn to use my own cr. mk. If it's a counter hit, I know that they get scared at that specific range, if it's not, I know i can walk up even closer. Every time I'm walking forward, I'm taking note of when they like to press buttons, so that I can make a read and counter hit them. Ideally, you get them so scared to press buttons that you can walk up and eventually just throw them. That's a REALLY basic example of opening someone up.

Hopefully that makes sense, if not feel free to ask about specifics and I'll explain what I can.

Which is a pretty fucking good post.

But we're done with this discussion. I'm concentrating on your response to my original question.

I like your cr MK example. I do something similar with Chun Li, but it's a lot more simple. I'll often throw out kikoken's and see how they react, then I'll position myself behind an fb and hazenshu them. When I've conditioned them to block after using an fb as a shield, I walk up and throw them.

It's not nearly as complex as what you're thinking with your cr mk example, but it's gotten the job done and it's really satisfying.

I'll try to take mental notes of when and why they press buttons from now on. it's been completely absent in my thought process while playing.

Thanks a lot!

 

[FindMyFarms]

I like your cr MK example. I do something similar with Chun Li, but it's a lot more simple. I'll often throw out kikoken's and see how they react, then I'll position myself behind an fb and hazenshu them. When I've conditioned them to block after using an fb as a shield, I walk up and throw them.

It's not nearly as complex as what you're thinking with your cr mk example, but it's gotten the job done and it's really satisfying.

I'll try to take mental notes of when and why they press buttons from now on. it's been completely absent in my thought process while playing.

Thanks a lot!

Interpretation of tone over the internet is pretty wishy washy, if I offended you I apologize, but I won't bother with semantics.

And yes, good to hear on the mental notes. That in conjunction with concentrating on anti airs (though that is a lot harder with chun compared to a shoto) will set you on the right path. It's very unintuitive at first, but with repetition comes comfort and recognition.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

I find anti air easier in V than IV. I dunno. It feels like characters get more air in V? Am I crazy?

 

[Dremark]

SFV actively punishes most SFIV strategies: mashing lights, no backdash invincibility, it doesn't have similar OS set ups, even using meaties is different due to button priority. It has no focus attack, and many IV players rely on focus. Whoops. You'll rarely see me use focus in any of my matches in IV, even against fireball characters. Even Gootecks and Mike Ross flat out say that they predict SFIV players to have a hard time. They, including Combofiend and Alex Valle, are predicting that OG's (old SF players) will be having a much easier time. Saying that SFIV is great for preparing for V is pretty dependent on how you play it, and how most play IV, I'm going to say for most it isn't. I've gone out of my way to avoid most of SFIV's core mechanics such as focus. Though I do take advantage of lights and backdash invincibility. That said, any SF should help, but IV has so many mechanics and ways to avoid shit that learning fundamentals comes a bit harder depending on the character. Thankfully in SFIV I play a no nonsense character for the most part, so I had to learn as a principle.

Gootecks and Floe are suggesting you play SFIV because it's the most current and easily accessible game. Not because it's the most viable SF to play to prep for SFV.

In any case, I already have prepped for SFV with IV. It's what I've been doing since EVO. But for now, I want to wean off bad IV habits (mashing lights, backdash invincibility - guess what, ST has no backdash) so I don't end up spending day 1 trying to wean off bad IV habits.

SF4 is quite a bit different than SF5 in significant ways, but the fundamentals cross over as they will from a lot of games. I am aware of the significant differences, but again you're going to have to go through transition regardless of what you're playing beforehand.

Gootecks probably did suggest SFIV because it's the most accessible. I was mistaken when I said Floe earlier, I meant Viscant, Floe's stuff is trying to be a general guide for learning a new game. Anyway this was Viscant's reasoning for suggesting learning a new character from the ground up in 4:

"And I can already hear people saying “I'm not going to do this, it's too much work for no reward, it's dumb, I hate SF4, I hate [backdashes, vortexes, 3f throws, crouch teching, Elena].  I'm only playing SF5 because it looks like it's going to be more like [Street Fighter game I liked before] with no [tactic I couldn't beat]!  Then I'll put in the work and be a top player!”

This is the attitude you want to avoid.  I'll blow myself up here for a minute.  I was bad at SF4.  There are a lot of fundamental concepts about SF4 that I never bothered to learn.  Like with Blanka I never really bothered to OS against backdashes.  I always knew I should learn at some point and I knew where to find the videos to teach me how to do it but I never did.  Here's my inner Scrub Quotes monologue on SF4.  “Oh I don't really play this game, I play Marvel.  This version's boring I'll wait for [AE2012, Ultra, SF5] to come out, then I'll try harder.  I play bad characters, if I had learned Fei or Akuma I'd still be in the mix in tournaments!”  Blah blah blah.

Does this sound like anyone you know?  Maybe you even see a little bit of yourself in there?  It's OK, the point isn't to beat yourself up about not taking SF4 more seriously.  The point is that why would you expect to have a better work ethic for a new game if you've never proved to yourself that you can work hard or improve at other games?  Why is SF5 going to be any different?  There's going to be top tier characters in SF5.  Someone's going to find some tech that makes you think “this is ridiculous, why does this exist???”  If you can get over that mental hurdle now, even just a little bit, it's going to make the transition to a new game easier."

Ultimately transition an adapting is part of playing the genre and even the game itself with tech and metashifts. Honestly playing the hacked Beta of SFV is probably the best way to do things but ultimately if you're playing another game with the same mentality to learn it doesn't really matter what you are playing to prep and within the first couple of weeks people will work stuff that no longer makes sense out of thier system

And honestly the only SFIV players who should really have that hard of a time switching to 5 are the ones who either can't or more accurately refuse to apdapt.

 

[Dremark]

I find anti air easier in V than IV. I dunno. It feels like characters get more air in V? Am I crazy?

I find it more difficult to be honest. It might be that I don't have as much hands on experience with V yet, or maybe that my character of choice has more limited anti air options, I'm not sure.

 

[FindMyFarms]

I find anti air easier in V than IV. I dunno. It feels like characters get more air in V? Am I crazy?

There's a sweet spot right inside max footsie range where if someone goes from a crossup and you didn't already commit to the walk under, then you're screwed unless you have a dp that can cross cut. There's also certain ranges for some characters where, because their anti air moves their hurt box forward, a jump in then turns into a crossup that blasts you.

Aside from that yeah, most characters not having a variable jump arc, and grounded normals having great priority against jump ins lends to AA'ing in 5 being more consistent. Just have to be aware of when you're in crossup range and what your character can do to deal with that.

 

[Seyavesh]

Anyhows, if you, or anyone else reading this has some questions, feel free to fire away and I'll do what I can to help!

who are you and what did you do with the real findmyfarms

 

[FindMyFarms]

who are you and what did you do with the real findmyfarms

you'll never find my farms

but in all seriousness, I'll be making a really big push for 5 this year.I already have tickets purchased for texas showdown, final round, northwest majors, and evo.

It's been a while since i've been active in the community, but I thought I'd start showing gaf some love again.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

SF4 is quite a bit different than SF5 in significant ways, but the fundamentals cross over as they will from a lot of games. I am aware of the significant differences, but again you're going to have to go through transition regardless of what you're playing beforehand.

Gootecks probably did suggest SFIV because it's the most accessible. I was mistaken when I said Floe earlier, I meant Viscant, Floe's stuff is trying to be a general guide for learning a new game. Anyway this was Viscant's reasoning for suggesting learning a new character from the ground up in 4:

"And I can already hear people saying “I'm not going to do this, it's too much work for no reward, it's dumb, I hate SF4, I hate [backdashes, vortexes, 3f throws, crouch teching, Elena].  I'm only playing SF5 because it looks like it's going to be more like [Street Fighter game I liked before] with no [tactic I couldn't beat]!  Then I'll put in the work and be a top player!”

This is the attitude you want to avoid.  I'll blow myself up here for a minute.  I was bad at SF4.  There are a lot of fundamental concepts about SF4 that I never bothered to learn.  Like with Blanka I never really bothered to OS against backdashes.  I always knew I should learn at some point and I knew where to find the videos to teach me how to do it but I never did.  Here's my inner Scrub Quotes monologue on SF4.  “Oh I don't really play this game, I play Marvel.  This version's boring I'll wait for [AE2012, Ultra, SF5] to come out, then I'll try harder.  I play bad characters, if I had learned Fei or Akuma I'd still be in the mix in tournaments!”  Blah blah blah.

Does this sound like anyone you know?  Maybe you even see a little bit of yourself in there?  It's OK, the point isn't to beat yourself up about not taking SF4 more seriously.  The point is that why would you expect to have a better work ethic for a new game if you've never proved to yourself that you can work hard or improve at other games?  Why is SF5 going to be any different?  There's going to be top tier characters in SF5.  Someone's going to find some tech that makes you think “this is ridiculous, why does this exist???”  If you can get over that mental hurdle now, even just a little bit, it's going to make the transition to a new game easier."

Ultimately transition an adapting is part of playing the genre and even the game itself with tech and metashifts. Honestly playing the hacked Beta of SFV is probably the best way to do things but ultimately if you're playing another game with the same mentality to learn it doesn't really matter what you are playing to prep and within the first couple of weeks people will work stuff that no longer makes sense out of thier system

And honestly the only SFIV players who should really have that hard of a time switching to 5 are the ones who either can't or more accurately refuse to apdapt.

I'm not sure why you'd go through the effort to make this post. I've not shied away from any SFIV strategies besides over use of focus. I backdash on wakeup often, regularly fight characters who vortex, and have been playing SFIV regularly for many months now. I never gave up on IV at all and if V weren't coming out next week I'd still be playing and learning it. I enjoy IV a lot. It was my favorite game last gen. I have invested hundreds of hours into it and I'm kicking myself for not getting into before last year. USFIV is the game that made me want to get GOOD at fighting games. I personally find your post odd, considering I'm a huge advocate for IV and love it to death. My only real complaint with IV are 1f links but that's mostly because I play on pad now. I also hate focus but that's not here nor there and doesn't fully ruin my enjoyment. I'd like to learn more about IV but there simply isn't too much time.

 

[MikeBreezy92]

You'll get murdered if you play USFIV right now. Over 2000 games, 16% win rate. Nothing but losses. If you're getting into ANY SF right now, and wins are on your menu, SFV is the only choice. If you're trying to learn any SF rightnow you'll get murdered.
.

If you're playing SFIV to learn SF fundamentals for SFV or trying to unlearn SFIV habits. Winning is the last thing you need to worry about so its an option regardless how tough the comp is. USFIV was my first SF game(besides early 3SOE) and after some ideas finally clicked I was scrub busting no problem.

This paragraph articulates very well why I'm much more interested in the decision-making behind opportunities rather than the actual pay-off. Guess that also explains why Virtua Fighter (5) manages to invest me more than something like Tekken, since the former encapsulates the final sentence in a more apparent fashion.

VF and Tekken work very similarly so I'm just gonna assume Tekken's flash gets in the way of that.

@Cindi I think people are just responding the the tinge of salt you kinda carry with your posts.

 

[Dremark]

I'm not sure why you'd go through the effort to make this post. [...]

Because I was talking about the transition to SFV and more generally from one fighting game to another in general, not trying to convince you to play one game over another. For some reason you seem to be taking it as the latter though.

Also most of that was a copy/paste so it really wasn't much effort either.

 

[Crab Milk Mickey]

I also like this part:

...

You can see a related, more obvious version of this problem in scrubby ST Ryu players. When you finally charge up a super in ST (back when it was actually a big deal to have a super), scrubs get so excited about having it that their whole gameplan shifts to focus on firing it off. Where before they might have been playing a controlled, fluid game, they become drooling morons when the meter fills up. Its so common that it actually has a name- “superitis”. The super really is a useful weapon and genuine threat, but not if youre going to fire it off at the earliest possible moment, and the opponent knows it. The value of this waiting is obvious when you notice how always doing things ASAP renders you predictable.

...​

I have a problem with letting all out and unleashing a super even if I'm not sure it'll hit through desperation. I see they've got a life lead, and I freak out. I wanna win and I lose patience.

Not gonna lie, in retrospect it took me a shamefully long time to shake 'superitis' as Dhalsim. Only dropped that bad habit in Ultra SFIV, though in my defense I did skip both AE's! Largely because his Super was scarier in previous iterations in between the higher damage, easier to anti-air with as well as it being allowed to be activated if there was still a fireball out on the field. Either way, it did improve my decision-making out of necessity and in turn I became more conscious of the tactics behind meter management, both for myself and who I'm facing.

Also as I previously mentioned Floe is currently doing a series on learning fighting games on his YouTube channel and Viscont is doing a series on SFV on BrokenTier and both are early but looking pretty promising if anyone wants to check them out. Not sure if they came up earlier.

Viscant has been pushing out some great articles. Not a fan of Floe's teachings though, but the format has potential; he throws around analogies or vague concepts a bit too much for my liking to be of genuine use for newcomers. Juicebox discusses matters in a far greater detail on his stream, but he lacks a dedicated video series for convenience.

I find anti air easier in V than IV. I dunno. It feels like characters get more air in V? Am I crazy?

I got the impression that dedicated anti-air buttons or select special attacks (when given to a character) are more reliable in their purpose in V, albeit with a more pronounced catch. Dhalsim for example has more than in IV whilst being more obvious in which space they cover, but the variety and their priority comes at a cost. The ones that hit from afar primarily serve him well if there's distance to speak of or otherwise they're more likely to whiff / trade, his standing jab (while incredibly fast) only protects Dhalsim when the enemy is practically touching his head and his standing medium punch (now with more reach than in IV) takes comparatively longer to come out. Never mind his Yoga Fire sort of replacing Yoga Blast, but with risk-reward attached that doesn't render all but the EX version useless.

It's a deliberate design choice noticeable with Ryu, Birdie, Zangief and Chun-Li as well among others. I think it's a pretty cool nuance.

VF and Tekken work very similarly so I'm just gonna assume Tekken's flash gets in the way of that.

I'm guessing the flash might've been it, yeah. Forgot which entries in the Tekken series I did watch on a competitive level (albeit sporadically) when I kept tabs on tournaments, but those I did spectate were rather heavy on the combo extravagance and frequently trying to push the opposing player close to a wall for bigger damage, barring 'endless' stages. While this type of mechanic is also present in Virtua Fighter 5 (which I did actively play) and although the importance of it varies per arena, in general said emphasis felt more subdued in VF5 whilst favouring the elements in the aforementioned quote. It's something I also found the case with Namco's older Soul Calibur games for what it's worth, and I also preferred the possibility of ring-outs (dependant on the level) adding a different, more interesting strategic dynamic in lieu of a damage burst.

Not sure where Tekken 7 stands in this, however.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

If you're playing SFIV to learn SF fundamentals for SFV or trying to unlearn SFIV habits. Winning is the last thing you need to worry about so its an option regardless how tough the comp is. USFIV was my first SF game(besides early 3SOE) and after some ideas finally clicked I was scrub busting no problem.

You're also a self admitted experienced fighting game player. I've been playing serious for less time. We're not exactly comparable. My progress for six months is pretty solid. I also bust scrubs. Beating them is no problem and not exactly special, so congratulations. And lol @"tinge of salt"

 

[Prototype-03]

Backdashes aren't invincible in SF5, one of the better changes from 4 in my opinion.

Didn't know that, but yes, that's a REALLY good change.

 

[Crab Milk Mickey]

Didn't know that, but yes, that's a REALLY good change.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I recall counter-hit status being applied (including Crush Counters) too if you get caught in the middle of a backdash.

 

[CountBlack]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I recall counter-hit status being applied (including Crush Counters) too if you get caught in the middle of a backdash.

Yep. This makes Gief extra scary since his buttons are so good up close mixed in with tick throws.. whew

 

[MikeBreezy92]

I'm guessing the flash might've been it, yeah. Forgot which entries in the Tekken series I did watch on a competitive level (albeit sporadically) when I kept tabs on tournaments, but those I did spectate were rather heavy on the combo extravagance and frequently trying to push the opposing player close to a wall for bigger damage, barring 'endless' stages. While this type of mechanic is also present in Virtua Fighter 5 (which I did actively play) and although the importance of it varies per arena, in general said emphasis felt more subdued in VF5 whilst favouring the elements in the aforementioned quote. It's something I also found the case with Namco's older Soul Calibur games for what it's worth, and I also preferred the possibility of ring-outs (dependant on the level) adding a different, more interesting strategic dynamic in lieu of a damage burst.

Not sure where Tekken 7 stands in this, however.

Well yeah it was definitely the Flash and Tekken 7 is more of the same(but different in its own ways.) I do think you weren't looking at the movement as much as you were "supposed" to. Since that's the lead to the big fancy combos and stage positioning. It's kinda like how people miss the heavy neutral in Marvel.

You're also a self admitted experienced fighting game player. I've been playing serious for less time. We're not exactly comparable. My progress for six months is pretty solid. I also bust scrubs. Beating them is no problem and not exactly special, so congratulations. And lol @"tinge of salt"

I knew you'd bring that up but also have to realize that I've only played 3D fighters(and MK which is pretty much a 3D fighter in 2D in concept). So pure 2D fighters have always been over my head. I've been trying to get into Street Fighter for years and it really just clicked last year.

 

[ShinMaruku]

SF still does not click for me.

 

[fader]

SF still does not click for me.

not enough juggle physics?

 

[Kuksune]

not enough juggle physics?

You were saying?

 

[ShinMaruku]

not enough juggle physics?