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[Erigu]

I've said this before, but I can't get over how stupid the G.R are. They want people to remember something they've clearly shown very little sign of wanting to forget?
There's stupid and then there's this...
I really don't understand what their motivations are. It's just so stupid.

And yet their numbers keep growing. So mysterious.

Ah, but Nora pointed out how that was stupid on the show, so it's fine.
See also:

The Twins spoke to the apparent issues that people have with the show and if what they communicated wasn't good enough for you, then you shouldn't be watching anymore.

Checkmate, critics.

I also recall Laurie writing "NO VIOLENCE" to Meg

And slapping her, too. Point fucking made.

and she seems to be Patti's second/replacement.

For seemingly no reason other than the fact she's the main character's wife.

Precisely.

...
No, look. I was mocking the show's reliance on manipulative music (and slow motion, too). As usual with Lindelof, it's not like the writing itself could do the job.

 

[ThLunarian]

I'm not particularly concerned about everything getting answered. Peoples' motivations in real life are frequently irrational and immune to logical explanation. I feel like the show has offered more than enough exposition for the Guilty Remnant to be an organization that can reasonably exist in this world.

What I really want more than anything is for these plot threads to converge in a meaningful way. I want Wayne to give one of his magic hugs to Kevin's dad. I want Matt to actually get through to, and unconvert, Liv Tyler. I just want things to come to a head, because we've really been building up to a major conflict soon, and so far it's not clear what part all these factions will play in that conflict.

 

[Kayhan]

Liv Tyler is rage inducing. But then so are most of the GR. They just do not make any sense to me at all. If I lived in that town they would drive me absolutely mad.

 

[Erigu]

Peoples' motivations in real life are frequently irrational and immune to logical explanation.

Yes, and many questions are never answered in real life. And absence of payoff is a common occurrence in real life.
But this is a story.

 

[ThLunarian]

Yes, and many questions are never answered in real life. And absence of payoff is a common occurrence in real life.
But this is a story.

This is about human motivation. People, fictional and nonfictional alike, have ridiculous and illogical motivations. Villains especially often have logically unsound reasons for doing what they do. That doesn't make the overall story any worse.

 

[Erigu]

In the sense that it makes it less interesting, it sure does.

 

[Karu]

Brilliant episode. Loved how they handled Garvey realizing what he has done the past few weeks. Justin Theroux delivers a good to great performance, nice casting. While Jill might not be the most enjoyable character, I do enjoy the Garvey-family struggle and am really anticipating Kevin finding out where she went. Beautiful shot, great score, engaging characters and good actors.

 

[Kadayi]

I kind of dug the episode. Was sorry to see Patti go as she was such a great antagonist, but them's the breaks.

I kind of get what the GR are up to given Patti's explanation because in truth up to now their motivation hasn't really been made clear. To them the world effectively ended after the departure and it's not a case of simply moving on from that with statues and national holidays, it's all about pondering the unexplainable and the knowledge that it might happen again at any given moment and facing that certainty. The smoking is an act of submission. It's a deliberate rejection of concern over personal long term well being because that's wholly unimportant now.

 

[ThLunarian]

In the sense that it makes it less interesting, it sure does.

I disagree that it does that.

I view the GR as being very creepy, almost like a horror movie trope given human form. The inability to figure out why they're doing things, and therefore the unpredictability of what they'll do next, gives them this supernatural quality that I find very interesting.

 

[Frog-fu]

And slapping her, too. Point fucking made.

Pretty sure she meant no violence in the context of towards outsiders. Who knows what the GR do to one another?

For seemingly no reason other than the fact she's the main character's wife.

Probably.

...
No, look. I was mocking the show's reliance on manipulative music (and slow motion, too). As usual with Lindelof, it's not like the writing itself could do the job.

Ahuh. OK.

 

[Erigu]

I disagree that it does that.

1) Stories with characters whose motivations make sense
2) Stories with characters whose motivations make no sense

Do you really disagree that 1) is more interesting than 2)?

I view the GR as being very creepy, almost like a horror movie trope given human form.

I can't think of many horror movies that spend time on scenes where the monsters are all among themselves and barely hold back their tears as they talk (or write, as the case may be) about their miserable lives just as the overbearing music makes it really clear that this is all supposed to be really moving and intimate.
The Leftovers plays this all as a human drama, and does a terrible job.

 

[ThLunarian]

1) Stories with characters whose motivations make sense
2) Stories with characters whose motivations make no sense

Do you really disagree that 1) is more interesting than 2)?


I can't think of many horror movies that spend time on scenes where the monsters are all among themselves and barely hold back their tears as they talk (or write, as the case may be) about their miserable lives just as the overbearing music makes it really clear that this is all supposed to be really moving and intimate.
The Leftovers plays this all as a human drama, and does a terrible job.

That's a good point. I guess maybe I view them as being possessed by some malevolent force. Whatever the case, I personally find it compelling

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

Yes, that's exactly how I took that mean.

I also recall Laurie writing "NO VIOLENCE" to Meg, and she seems to be Patti's second/replacement. I would've imagined she'd know about Gladys, right?

No, I reckon she doesn't' know about Gladys, which is why the GR are a bunch of hypocrites and assholes. Patty is a lying insecure sack of shit, I doubt she informed Laurie about her "fate".

 

[demolitio]

No, I reckon she doesn't' know about Gladys, which is why the GR are a bunch of hypocrites and assholes. Patty is a lying insecure sack of shit, I doubt she informed Laurie about her "fate".

That's how I see it. They only know how much they NEED to know to do their job and to stay in the cult. It really does mimic a lot of cults that existed in the past few decades in terms of how they're lead and how their mission statement is so convoluted that it's nonsensical to rational people but is enough to convince those who are weak-minded or in a bad place in their lives that it's a good thing to join to have purpose.

I just can't wait to see where this goes, but I'm going to be pissed off when Memorial Day goes down and they affect Nora.

This show is far from perfect but I like it. Mysterious plots are nice as long as they don't keep you going for 20 million seasons and if there's enough intriguing things going on that you can't stop watching until you find out what's going on. It's an easy hook in that regard that most shows use, but this show has so many unique and outlandish plots going on that I just HAVE to see what's happening.

 

[~Kinggi~]

It blew my mind today that the guy who plays the chief also wrote Tropic Thunder. Lmao. Justin has done a bunch of odd shit.

 

[RangersFan]

It blew my mind today that the guy who plays the chief also wrote Tropic Thunder. Lmao. Justin has done a bunch of odd shit.

Also wrote Iron Man 2 and was Joe the bland boring guy for Six Feet Under, the DJ in Zoolander, and John Hancock in the John Adams mini-series.

 

[Salsa]

man this show is just Lost

im enjoying it, but it's Lost, and it's gonna be Lost all over again

I see a lot of people on reddit and other places defending that by saying "no! this isnt a show about the mistery you dont get it! that's not the point at all, this is a character study on how people deal with loss!"

bullshit

this show doesnt treat itself as a character study, its all about teasing the mistery and "oh fuck" moments where they let you in a bit more, and im seeing all the fucking signs all over again that this is the same god damn trap. Random national geographic magazines and shit are just as random as "wtf polar bears!?". dude is doing the same thiiiing

im gonna keep watching, but im gonna do so with that same "why am I doing this to myself" feeling

 

[Erigu]

this show doesnt treat itself as a character study

Well, it might think otherwise, but the characters and writing are so terrible...

its all about teasing the mistery and "oh fuck" moments where they let you in a bit more, and im seeing all the fucking signs all over again that this is the same god damn trap

Yup. If you really wanted your show to simply be a drama about how the characters deal with the aftermath of that rapture-like event, you wouldn't introduce a whole bunch of other supernatural elements, conspiracies and the like on top of that.

To put it concisely: Lindelof.

 

[~Kinggi~]

Also wrote Iron Man 2 and was Joe the bland boring guy for Six Feet Under, the DJ in Zoolander, and John Hancock in the John Adams mini-series.

holy shit the DJ from Zoolander my gods!

 

[Stoze]

I really liked Lost (sans the last few seasons) and this is a bit entertaining, but yeah, Lindelof really puts his mark on stuff with substance-less intrigue and fucking stupid characters.

I see a lot of people on reddit and other places defending that by saying "no! this isnt a show about the mistery you dont get it! that's not the point at all, this is a character study on how people deal with loss!"

I saw this pop up so much around the last couple seasons of Lost, which is funny because by the end of Lost nearly all the characters were terrible and poorly written. The show switched from an 80% character drama and %20 mystery sci-fi to the other way around.

No one was watching that shit because they liked Jack and Kate except for maybe tween girls.

 

[Salsa]

holy shit the DJ from Zoolander my gods!

he wrote the screenplay for Zoolander 2 already and they're shopping it

also wrote Tropic Thunder

he's a weird guy in terms of projects for sure, I always remember him as that bad guy from Charlie's Angel 2

give us the rings

 

[royalan]

There are plenty of us providing you with ample reasons for why we're not crazy about this show.

If you want an echo chamber, go somewhere else.

Amen.

Personally, I don't care if people like the show. Just giving an opinion is what I respect.

But I will say only one side of this discussion is bashing the other. There's a lot more people complaining about people who aren't liking the show than the other way around.

 

[bodyofanamerican]

he's a weird guy in terms of projects for sure, I always remember him as that bad guy from Charlie's Angel 2

give us the rings

And he honestly doesn't look a day older.

 

[Grizzo]

This is getting ridiculous. We don't understand what would ever drive Jill to join the GR. Since the pilot episode she's been nothing but moody and we still don't know why. Alright I get it, she misses her mom, but that's still an unconvincing decision.

Patti saying that the GR plan on killing themselves so that we would remember them, just like we remembered Gladys... Alright then, then why don't they just die already? Let's watch them practice a mass suicide, shall we?

Kevin is going crazy... What else is new?

I think I'll watch the last two episodes of the season and if nothing gets better then I'll bail and won't give the next one a try.

I miss Enlightened. HBO should have given this show a third season, I tell you this.

he's a weird guy in terms of projects for sure, I always remember him as that bad guy from Charlie's Angel 2

give us the rings

That movie was fun though. But maybe I just have awful tastes.

 

[ThLunarian]

This is getting ridiculous. We don't understand what would ever drive Jill to join the GR. Since the pilot episode she's been nothing but moody and we still don't know why. Alright I get it, she misses her mom, but that's still an unconvincing decision.

She misses her mom, yeah, but ever since the pilot they've portrayed Jill as a girl who doesn't want to give a fuck. She's been trying to suppress her emotions since day one. That's essentially what the GR is all about, so it seems like a natural extension of her character to me.

Patti saying that the GR plan on killing themselves so that we would remember them, just like we remembered Gladys... Alright then, then why don't they just die already? Let's watch them practice a mass suicide, shall we?

They believe they have to spread the word. Killing themselves all at once would do nothing to spread their message. Controlled, occasional 'suicides' give them a lot more control on how they spread their message.

Kevin is going crazy... What else is new?

Well.... a lot, actually. Did you watch the episode?

 

[roosters93]

This was an interesting episode, not good at all, but bizarre.

hah yeah. Even if it isn't good, at least it's interesting.

So that guardian angel dude. He was totally talking to himself like Kevin's dad was when he stormed out of the cabin.

oh yeah I noted that, nearly forgot about it till you said so.

Did anyone comment how it seemed that Jill started to point Nora's gun towards herself? After watching the thread and checking some of the recaps, I don't think I've seen it mentioned (although I'm sure it was).

I didn't comment on it, but I was definitely thinking it at the time. Exactly like thelostbigboss...

No, I saw the gun slowly moving towards her mouth and was dreading the inevitable bang as they cut to the two idiots.

Spoiler

An unexpected ally helps Kevin get out of a jam near the town of Cairo.
His dad?

Spoiler

Nah, I'm thinking it could be Tom. Bring him into someone else's arc for once.
I wouldn't be surprised if Kevin's dad isn't in the show much in the near future. He's already done his job of fucking with Kevin's mind.

Yes, and many questions are never answered in real life. And absence of payoff is a common occurrence in real life.
But this is a story.

In the sense that it makes it less interesting, it sure does.

So stories that wrap up every storyline in a nice little package with a bow are always more interesting? I'm not defending the merits of Lindelof mystery LOST-style writing (because there aren't any lol), but if you're gonna go with the broad point that 'this is a story' I would disagree. Intricate stories that don't necessarily line up totally by the end of them often leave me pondering them afterwards for longer.

Amen.

Personally, I don't care if people like the show. Just giving an opinion is what I respect.

But I will say only one side of this discussion is bashing the other. There's a lot more people complaining about people who aren't liking the show than the other way around.

Well that's a bit of a truism. I imagine it would be hard to find a thread devoted to talking about a show that people have decided to invest their time into, where the inverse situation is true.

 

[royalan]

She misses her mom, yeah, but ever since the pilot they've portrayed Jill as a girl who doesn't want to give a fuck. She's been trying to suppress her emotions since day one. That's essentially what the GR is all about, so it seems like a natural extension of her character to me.

But the GR aren't about suppressing their emotions at all. Their entire purpose, as explained last night, is about stripping everything away that would distract them from wallowing in their emotions and misery 24/7.

Doesn't make a lick of sense, but that's what it is.

 

[mm04]

I hate Kevin's entire family. They're all dumbasses. Except his dad. Pops is cool with me.

 

[Mr.Swag]

Its a cult its not supposed to make sense.

 

[Plasmid]

Great episode. DAMMIT PATTI. 2 left!!

 

[DrBo42]

But the GR aren't about suppressing their emotions at all. Their entire purpose, as explained last night, is about stripping everything away that would distract them from wallowing in their emotions and misery 24/7.

Doesn't make a lick of sense, but that's what it is.

Yeah but no one knows that outside GR. From the outside they're just nihilistic chain-smoking assholes.

I hate Kevin's entire family. They're all dumbasses. Except his dad. Pops is cool with me.

Supporting cast/characters are extremely weak, yes. Definitely a problem.

 

[brianjones]

 

[Stoze]

Is it wrong if I wanted badly to see a sex scene between her and Mr. Garvey

 

[brianjones]

on a pile of guns!

i'd say I'm glad they didn't go there cause it would have been really cliche but its not like this show has really high standards

 

[StuBurns]

It's odd people are speaking as if it's no longer a possibility. There's still room for it.

 

[Steelyuhas]

Is it wrong if I wanted badly to see a sex scene between her and Mr. Garvey

Random: HBO had a season 1 marathon of Boardwalk Empire and she had an arc an a prostitute in Chicago.

 

[Mr.Swag]

I actually thought it had happened.

 

[StoopKid]

I hate Kevin's entire family. They're all dumbasses. Except his dad. Pops is cool with me.

Yea I don't get it.

Why be mad at your dad all the time when he's the only the only family member you talk to ?

 

[netguy503]

I hate Kevin's entire family. They're all dumbasses. Except his dad. Pops is cool with me.

The son is cool because he shows his penis. Please show it again before season's end.

 

[Stoze]

It's odd people are speaking as if it's no longer a possibility. There's still room for it.

Naw, I think her moving out of the Garvey house was the nail in the coffin.

I actually thought it had happened.

Yeah it's definitely possible. If it did we didn't get to see it though (and neither did Kevin unfortunately).

Random: HBO had a season 1 marathon of Boardwalk Empire and she had an arc an a prostitute in Chicago.

Random: Google had a picture of her on images where she had an arc as topless poolside girl

 

[mm04]

Random: HBO had a season 1 marathon of Boardwalk Empire and she had an arc an a prostitute in Chicago.

She'll always be future Ella from Fringe to me.

 

[Erigu]

So stories that wrap up every storyline in a nice little package with a bow are always more interesting?

I didn't say anything about "wrapping everything up in a nice little package". I absolutely agree that ambiguity can be interesting.
But it isn't necessarily interesting, and in Lindelof's case, the "ambiguity" word is merely used as an excuse for lazy, cheap writing, poorly thought-out and devoid of any substance.

Speaking of the guy's poor excuses...

Lindelof on the perilous exhilaration of writing a TV show without a master plan: “A show like Breaking Bad—which in my opinion is, if not the best, one of the best television series ever—[the producers talked] very openly about the fact they were winging it. You just paint yourself into a corner, and you wait for the paint to dry and then you do it all over again. That’s a very exciting, exhilarating way to do it, but I was beaten about so much on Lost in terms of, like, ‘You have a plan, though, right?’ … The other question that they always ask is how much of an impact do the fans have on the story and they want the answer to that question to be that [they] have tremendous impact. It’s the gladiator arena! If you guys put your thumbs down, we will kill people. And whatever you don’t like, we will change that now. They don’t understand that these are two highly contradictory ideas that they want.”

Silly, silly audience... It doesn't even understand it contradicts itself!
... Or maybe the audience is composed of distinct individuals who may well not want the same things? Oh, wait, he's trying to shift the blame on his viewers (whom he clearly holds in very high esteem!), never mind me.

Maybe Lindelof could finally stop pretending he's a misunderstood auteur whose plots are unfortunately too deep and ambiguous for some and whining when his work gets criticized for being shit, and finally embrace the fact that it is what he does: shit writing. Cheap, crowd-pleasing drama (that "gladiator arena" bit sure reminds me of something!), devoid of any substance. That's what he decides to go for when he writes. As the showrunner, he makes the calls, and his decisions clearly aren't for the sake of the story, but merely for the sake of popularity: that's his priority. "Here's where a lot of the stupid plots you're getting come from! ... Oh, and yeah, I'm part of the problem: I love money too damn much!"

 

[RatskyWatsky]

The son is cool because he shows his penis. Please show it again before season's end.

Except he didn't show his penis.

 

[Diprosalic]

oh shit they made replica dolls of the vanished people and dress them up and put them in people's houses? that's beyond fucked up.

 

[Hyun Sai]

They didn't lock Nora's front door when they left, but she used her keys to get in. Little details like that make me mad!

Hmm ? If I close my door from the outside, it's an automatic lock, I still have to use my key to enter.

 

[FaustsBoon]

So, I haven't been following/contributing to this thread, but I have been very much enjoying the show with my wife. I know it is an acquired taste, but I always appreciate Lindlof's shows in which the "feeling of mystery" means more than the payoff per-se. For whatever reason his style resonates with me, and I am ok when a shows themes "feel" right, even if they aren't logical.

Anyway, I wanted to chime in as I had my lightbulb moment and feel i've "figured out" what the show may end up being "about" in the broader sense.

The show very overtly is about metaphoric and literal "being asleep", and likewise has the ever present discussion about people needing to let go.

As silly as this sounds, I feel like Lindlof is using this as a Lost 2, and second chance to get to the same ending, but in a more consistent way.

I predict that this series, in essence, is the final season/episode of Lost, spread out into a full length show.

The people we are following are the ones who "left" on October 14th, with the reasoning never being addressed, because the real conceit of the show is that wherever they are, however they got there, they need to accept their deaths.

It charts the course of how the different characters find their way to that realization, some through nihilism, etc... and will be another a-religious ending.

Once I said it all aloud, it just kinda "felt" right, which seem's to be what Damon really cares about.

Thoughts?

 

[dave is ok]

The Lostovers.

This show is based on a book, so we can only blame Lindelof for so much. I should read the book so I know what to blame him for.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

I feel it's very unlikely we're following those people who left.

It's an interesting theory though and one that probably would have made for a much better show.

 

[wenis]

I think I've only posted maybe a handful of times in this thread, but for what it's worth I've been enjoying the show.

Not for the mystery, but the character interactions and motivations in he face of such a crazy event to have happened to humanity.

I'm quite interested to see how some of the plot lines start wrapping up in these last three episodes. There's something to this show and perhaps it needs to be seen as a whole versus being derided piece by piece.

 

[Valkyr Junkie]

Hmm ? If I close my door from the outside, it's an automatic lock, I still have to use my key to enter.

The deadbolt was also latched when she left since the kids had to unlock it as well.