I agree with your statement, the guy just made a quick YT clip of his opinion. Which is perfectly fine.
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Why DmC's Dante is a Bad Character (Video)
- Thread starter HyperBitHero
- Start date
Thanks to GuardianE for finding it, I was having a lot of trouble finding the DmC impressions:
http://www.capcom-unity.com/devil_m...ist_and_Gameplay_BreakdownDiscussion_and_FAQs
The TL
R version of this is that while he admits that the controls are responsive, the auto lock on system is terrible, having to double input directions to use Stinger like moves was cumbersome and the rolls/dodge system is completely broken (agreed 100%, I will break it down if someone wants me to).
Some more impressions on page 5:
http://www.capcom-unity.com/devil_m...nd_Gameplay_BreakdownDiscussion_and_FAQs?pg=5
http://www.capcom-unity.com/devil_m...ist_and_Gameplay_BreakdownDiscussion_and_FAQs
The TL
R version of this is that while he admits that the controls are responsive, the auto lock on system is terrible, having to double input directions to use Stinger like moves was cumbersome and the rolls/dodge system is completely broken (agreed 100%, I will break it down if someone wants me to). Some more impressions on page 5:
http://www.capcom-unity.com/devil_m...nd_Gameplay_BreakdownDiscussion_and_FAQs?pg=5
Karsticles
Member
The key to having a game with ironic stupidity is having moments of non-stupidity. Have we seen those yet?
R
Retro_
Unconfirmed Member
Probably something that will be fixed in the final build. I don't remember specifics but I know something else similar was nerfed in later buiilds.(move that built too much style when spammed)
maybe this is that move
because that's how feedback works????
Polishin8r
Member
1) scrap it
3) Make a new character who will be an old man
2) Jonathan Banks as a voice actor
4) Profit
3) Make a new character who will be an old man
2) Jonathan Banks as a voice actor
4) Profit
Pie and Beans
Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
Ah here it is, GAF's lowest point of the year where I need to log off for an hour or two. Fucking hell.
Yeah about the whole Arbiter move spamming to get SSS...
They have nerfed style gain based on feedback. While you still get a ton of style points for hitting a downed boss like that, on the whole it's decreased. The clip shown was of an older build.
Other stuff they changed was the DT, its much shorter now in length. They also fixed the exploit of juggling enemies with just whip into uppercut among other changes.
There are still a lot of fixes that are top priority. The roll system should be high on the list. Being able to freely cancel any move at any frame on the ground is too good, in no DMC game can you cancel a Helm Breaker the moment you land essentially negating any risk. Add on top of it the fact that the roll has very little recovery and a ton of i-frames. DS2 for example has an excellent roll system where you can only cancel moves into roll at a particular frame, the dodge itself can only be chained twice before having to deal with a long recovery animation and it's not that invulnerable, you have to time it well.
The other major problem is that the basic one button dodge trumps all other methods of evasion. I am talking about the demon evade and the angel glide, even the neutral jump dodge. There is no reason to use these options over the basic dodge, they are harder to execute with less safety. They have to balance this properly so that the mobility options actually have some depth.
I also feel that the Osiris is too good compared to the other weapons. It can juggle way more enemies, is faster than any other weapon, has more hits, has more style gauge and has hitboxes that extend beyond the reach of the screen. The "scoop" move is just ridiculous in terms of priority and utility. The kicker is that it gets more powerful the more it hits opponents.
They have nerfed style gain based on feedback. While you still get a ton of style points for hitting a downed boss like that, on the whole it's decreased. The clip shown was of an older build.
Other stuff they changed was the DT, its much shorter now in length. They also fixed the exploit of juggling enemies with just whip into uppercut among other changes.
There are still a lot of fixes that are top priority. The roll system should be high on the list. Being able to freely cancel any move at any frame on the ground is too good, in no DMC game can you cancel a Helm Breaker the moment you land essentially negating any risk. Add on top of it the fact that the roll has very little recovery and a ton of i-frames. DS2 for example has an excellent roll system where you can only cancel moves into roll at a particular frame, the dodge itself can only be chained twice before having to deal with a long recovery animation and it's not that invulnerable, you have to time it well.
The other major problem is that the basic one button dodge trumps all other methods of evasion. I am talking about the demon evade and the angel glide, even the neutral jump dodge. There is no reason to use these options over the basic dodge, they are harder to execute with less safety. They have to balance this properly so that the mobility options actually have some depth.
I also feel that the Osiris is too good compared to the other weapons. It can juggle way more enemies, is faster than any other weapon, has more hits, has more style gauge and has hitboxes that extend beyond the reach of the screen. The "scoop" move is just ridiculous in terms of priority and utility. The kicker is that it gets more powerful the more it hits opponents.
LightofRohan
Member
Eh, I'm not into civil debates about this game anymore. My god, I've been hearing this crap for almost a year now? It's such a tired thing -- Capcom/NT heard your disapproval, you could have just left it after the initial shock and perhaps complain more when the game releases to reiterate your dislike. This new thread at least once a week for almost a year is getting obnoxious.
And we all know it's entirely based on his look/capcom's abandonment. That's where the loudest initial reaction started at and its just been a year of the opposers trying to legitimize their claims; trying to act like their reasons aren't based on superficial reasons.
Relax. It's legitimate. I know competence is always looked at as bad and arrogant on the internet, but it's something that should be valid.
Based on what I've seen of DmC so far, I'm wondering if anyone at Ninja Theory's taken such a class.
OP did a really nice job of identifying and articulating his issues with the revamp, which I tend to agree with.This is what the backlash against an unpopular creative decision looks like. I'm sorry you find it 'obnoxious', but it seems a little... self-serving... to expect people to keep their feelings to themselves so that they don't sully your forum-browsing experience. Especially when the most sensible thing to do would be just to avoid threads like this.
Mmkay, your dismissive attitude is unfortunate, but I understand your frustration.
Supermanisdead
Member
Good video, but I disagree with it. Love the new look of Dante. Old one seemed more like a parody than this one is. Also, that shitty white hair and awful clothes.
I'm pretty excited about DmC and I've never really been interested in the series. Played the demo for 4 and the character was annoying and the levels were dull.
I'm pretty excited about DmC and I've never really been interested in the series. Played the demo for 4 and the character was annoying and the levels were dull.
BeautifulMemory
Member
Has the midair grab received any changes? Or is it still pretty automatic where we can grab enemies on and off-screen almost at will?
You know when i encounter threads i disagree with or dislike, my first impulse isn't to click it and tell the people who are having a discussion that im tired of their discussion. I simply don't click the thread. You can try that too sometimes..
R_thanatos
Member
Has the midair grab received any changes? Or is it still pretty automatic where we can grab enemies on and off-screen almost at will?
You can't do it against every enemy and they did nerf the timing on the follow up uppercut/kick. The range it still pretty insane on it though.
Just like the guns, the grab is tied to the auto lock on.
Unless you are talking about the Osiris "scoop"...
You can't do it against every enemy and they did nerf the timing on the follow up uppercut/kick. The range it still pretty insane on it though.
Just like the guns, the grab is tied to the auto lock on.
Unless you are talking about the Osiris "scoop"...
lol, maybe the patch actually satisfied people. I still haven't played the game since its implementation.
LightofRohan
Member
Or a Mass Effect 3 ending thread!
BUT w/ all this said. A TINY BIT of the Devil May Cry fans here are the most civil in the community and I can respect their disapproval of the new DMC (even though it doesnt seem like it most of the time), it just shows how much love the community has over the series.
And I hope that Capcom puts out a legitimate DMC5 so this game can just be ignored by the hardcore fans and enjoyed by those not into the regular series.
*me being all nice. Screw that noise.
I actually did this for 4-6 months! I was very proud of myself. Sometimes I just can't resist... but you are entirely right. But as the release date gets closer, I'm excited for the game and literally every thread revolving around it is just a hate fest. It makes it hard to avoid!
Mentaiko_Allergy
Member
I guess this is what capcom was intending. Make a DMC for people who don't like DMC. Shitty clothes and white hair. Alrighty then.
Not sure where you're seeing a review.
The video was intended to show people the issues, besides the strawman of white hair, certain fans have with the new direction. The direction and the character are pretty clear at this point, despite how he will undoubtedly evolve.
You may not agree with it, but I'm concerned that people are interpreting this video to be more than what it is. Some people come into threads that have no background in DMC and want to know what the design difference really is.
BeautifulMemory
Member
Thanks. Wish they would fix that. Wonder how the auto-lock will work given large number of enemies. Don't think I had the Osiris "scoop" in mind (what's that anyway?) - was just thinking more about the Devil Bringer transplant in this game
bangai-o said:
I am most likely in the minority for this one, but I have a hard time comprehending why it is looked down upon to be passionate about Dante. I know for some of you you never cared for him, or that you thought he was horribly written, or that he was never a good character to begin with. But for some of us, for me especially, this was my favorite franchise, my favorite character, my favorite hero in video game along side Solid Snake. So naturally I care about how he looks (design) and how he talks (VA), and of course I have strong reactions when I see changes that I have for the large part to be seen not for the better.
The problems with the New Dante are the same reasons why I hate most Western written characters, they only exist in 4 types mostly: "Evil", Badass, Good, Nerdy/Cool. These characters are only the subject of some simple plot of vengeance, and they have a gun. In the end of a game, their story uncovers, only to show a teaser, with nothing learnt. I then feel empty and wonder why i wasted my time.
I don't do that anymore. I prefer the mute western-written characters coz I haven't seen great dialog in a while, actually you know what? since Looking Glass's Thief games (Just remembered Bioshock)
I don't do that anymore. I prefer the mute western-written characters coz I haven't seen great dialog in a while, actually you know what? since Looking Glass's Thief games
(Just remembered Bioshock)les papillons sexuels
Banned
I think new dante is leaps and bounds better then the old dante. This one is, well was, unique.
isn't that the exact same in eastern writing. If anything it's worse in eastern countries.
The problems with the New Dante are the same reasons why I hate most Western written characters, they only exist in 4 types mostly: "Evil", Badass, Good, Nerdy/Cool. These characters are only the subject of some simple plot of vengeance, and they have a gun. In the end of a game, their story uncovers, only to show a teaser, with nothing learnt. I then feel empty and wonder why i wasted my time.
I don't do that anymore. I prefer the mute western-written characters coz I haven't seen great dialog in a while, actually you know what? since Looking Glass's Thief games
isn't that the exact same in eastern writing. If anything it's worse in eastern countries.
Unique != good.
Care to explain why you think that?
Back when the NT on DMC5 was just a rumor.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=392697
Plenty of individuals were concerned about the game before the white hair.
eg. 30fps on Unreal. Oh hey, that actually came true.
les papillons sexuels
Banned
well for starters, this gives dante some background, where he had little to none before. What was interesting before is that dante would've devolved into an immature character as he got older, but they just made him as immature now which is far less interesting. The idea of dante becoming more and more arrogant as he got older would've been a nice way to set him up as a failure later on. While its not a lot, at least it's some complexity, as opposed to the older dante who was just a blank piece of boring paper who did fancy moves.
The character design is also more interesting, he just looks better then older dante, he's way more relatable, and doesn't have the same douche factor. But that's just personal opinion.
Also, the whole fuck you moment is classic. It's just like in snatch, maybe other dont get the reference but it's still great. Along with them playing to a lot of the japanese tropes, the notions of "cool" for example. The op is acting like the original games had great dialog, but it's obvious that he's making as many insults about the original games as this newest one, he's just been given an outlet based on the character design. His complaints could be applied to the original game in far greater number.
And Nu Dante isn't meant to be unique he is meant to be an every day dumb ass chav which apparently makes him more relatable.
It does and now it looks like a twisted mess. A vision that Capcom/NT couldn't realise and the fans can't get behind. This game is for no one, oh except that one guy.
Personally I am just waiting for Borderlands 2 and Torchlight to come out. It is said I look forward to playing those games more than waiting for them to patch Diablo III now. I just gave up on the game.
It'll still be NT's best game. So fans of NT should be in for treat as well as players who wanted to see DMC as more of an adventure game as opposed to an action game.
BeautifulMemory
Member
I agree with what you said about the background piece, which is something that was never really explored since in DMC3 we dealt mostly with Vergil and still missing pieces about Sparda and Eva
Do have disagree on the "blank piece of boring paper" statement though. The OG Dante had a lot of humanity in him, which he also took as a source of strength, especially over power-hungry humans. He cared and loved Vergil despite all of their differences, and he looked after Lady throughout DMC3 once you look past the fancy choreographs and two teenagers fighting each other, and he felt for what she was going through with her father. And DMC4 unfortunately was vague as hell, but the reason why he was in Fortuna in the first place was because the human world was possibly threatened using his father's devil arms, and he kept an eye on Nero throughout. He has a genuine distaste for demons and humans who try to oppress the world. And at the end for whatever reason (never officially spelled out in DMC4) he gave Nero the Yamato, despite being the memento from his dead brother, because "the best kind of gift is the one worth giving"
Napalm_Frank
Member
I'd be interested to see video from OP where he explains and shows why the OG Dante was good. I recently played DMC 1 and 2 and honestly the character is pretty bland and DMC1 is way more appealing because of the enviromental design and atmosphere and pretty good gameplay for its time rather than Dante himself. DMC2 is below mediocre so maybe no need to even talk about it.
DMC3 Dante seems to be the fan favourite but I remember him being the worst of the series with shirtless cheese overload. Here usually people say that it's supposed to be super cheesy and stuff but I don't remember it working like at all. I remember action in the cutscenes being pretty cool like the opening but the character itself didn't leave a positive impression.
DMC4 Dante I honestly can't remember at all. Thats why I was dissapointed that OP only showed video of him and zero dialogue for the viewer to compare the characters.
New DMC Dante is pretty much the same as the old ones for me. Character is pretty meh but the world around him makes it worth it.
So instead of people allways complaining about Dino I wish for this kinda videos to really show why he is inferior to the old ones because I don't remember Dante ever being really good.
Edit: Also is there a source backing up the claim that NT doesn't like DMC series? Got my intrest.
DMC3 Dante seems to be the fan favourite but I remember him being the worst of the series with shirtless cheese overload. Here usually people say that it's supposed to be super cheesy and stuff but I don't remember it working like at all. I remember action in the cutscenes being pretty cool like the opening but the character itself didn't leave a positive impression.
DMC4 Dante I honestly can't remember at all. Thats why I was dissapointed that OP only showed video of him and zero dialogue for the viewer to compare the characters.
New DMC Dante is pretty much the same as the old ones for me. Character is pretty meh but the world around him makes it worth it.
So instead of people allways complaining about Dino I wish for this kinda videos to really show why he is inferior to the old ones because I don't remember Dante ever being really good.
Edit: Also is there a source backing up the claim that NT doesn't like DMC series? Got my intrest.
ChosenPredator
Banned
to be honest i never liked how the old dante look and missed the first one of the series because of that, this one looks a lot better to me but needs better scripted dialog thats it.
this is all visually speaking of course, gameplay is another thing that is just the wait and see factor.
this is all visually speaking of course, gameplay is another thing that is just the wait and see factor.
But will Capcom be content with the tiny NT fanbase and the couple DMC fans? I really don't think this game has appeal for the mass audience who are not familiar with the IP.
5 million or 2.5 the game is not going to reach any target from the looks of it.
My comment in this thread was golden...
At least it isn't being made by Game Republic.
"My name is Dante but you can call me Dante the demon killer."
"Fuck you fuck you fuck yooooooooooooooooooo."
Amazing dialogue. For a guy(Tameem) who always talks about Nolan's Batman and Casino Royale he really backs up his words....
Cheesy fun dialogue vs try too hard pathetic dialogue.
Even if they were comparable you are telling me NT with all their story/script skill they still can't top dialogue of past DMC games?
les papillons sexuels
Banned
this reads like the most typical japanese anime, hence why the new version is much more interesting to me. I love my manga, I read shit tones of it, but the reality is, 99% of manga is crap, and dante has a story pulled straight out of one.
If you think about something like naruto, an atlas trope(character who the whole world depends upon), and master cheif, an atlas trope, one has more personality and doesn't constantly have to explain why he's the atlas tope in ever sentence. One character does because he has to, the other does because he has to prove something. One is annoying the other isn't. Masterchief and Naruto are the exact same character. They both went to school to train to be protectors of their people, they both take on great responsibility without complaint, both are fearless, resourceful, etc, yet masterchief is much better written character, he's more complex, has more unique relationships, and better dialog, and that's under his generic armor.
This is how i feel about the new DMC character, he's a dick, but he's a dick because he can be a dick, and just because they dont needless explain it to you every time he talks, doesn't make him less complex of a character.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsNVziiTZHI
some great dialog, sometimes all you need is fuck you.
I want to apologise for getting geographical, that's not the Phil Fish attitude I'd like to develop. What I mean is that games are being made for that high-school audience, and there is a tremendous failure at making characters human, with a goal, a failure, flaw, a mission other than vengeance or chasing their "Peach" if you know what I mean.
I want Grey, living characters who don't rely on a gun for libido or "charm" for once. Hell, even making a confused character who is logical to some extent to achieve some means and realising his failures might come in handy.
I like the morphing environment hands down, BUT...
That is not Dante, that is simply Douche!!!
Napalm_Frank
Member
Or both are just terrible. I'm not familiar with NT games.
BeautifulMemory
Member
I get we are talking about video games, but how is Dante's background story anime or manga?
And what you said about Master Chief is exactly what I think of the OG Dante (opposite of what you said) - beyond the flashy action sequences, there is a hint of complex and unique character underneath
And I never said anything about the new Dante being less complex
I think the mass audience wouldn't be able to see the difference and they won't feel it until they buy it. Not to mention Capcom only expects 1.5M (?) or so.
Capcom seems intent of pushing it and the gaming press is extremely intent on pushing it. It'll sell fine if ORC was any indicator.
les papillons sexuels
Banned
have you seen the DMC anime, where most of his actual story is being retconned from?
BeautifulMemory
Member
I do think the game will sell fine. As much as I love some hardcore DMC action, it is really more of a minority, if not niche category