Support NeoGAF

[Skilletor]

Not really, no.

I'd like to get the second game, so I hope Nintendo is pleased with it. As the platform holder though, they have more in mind then individual game sales. Each one builds up to someone's tipping point in getting a 3DS.

I think you're out of touch with the things GuardianE said above.

 

[GhostTrick]

Both games sold almost exactly the same amount, to a small niche audience. People are splitting hairs over something in the range of 30k sales or less, considering that no one here seems to know what LR's digital sales are, and BD came out a week earlier.

Talk about fighting over nothing. The battle for the future of FF is determined by less than 30k sales? That's a joke. People are so eager to put down LR, they don't even notice that both games didn't sell particularly well.

SQEX is looking at a much bigger picture than this. Don't get me started on the content of the games. I got both day 1 and I've enjoyed them both (I'm one of the rare people on here that owns and has played both). But I definitely prefer one of them over the other.

Well the point I think is that they managed to sell the same amount while one of them is a new IP released exclusively on a handheld while the other is an established IP with a marketing budget that should be as big as both developpment and marketing budget of the other. It also released on 2 home console platform, with like 4 times the userbase of the handheld.


So considering that, yes, BD sold well but not LR.

 

[GuardianE]

The sales is all I look at when determining how big the audience is. The sales of these games are almost identical in the US at least.

XV will be much bigger obviously, but that doesn't mean LR seems to be catering to a niche audience. The sales speak for themselves really.

My point is that the game may be catering to a niche audience, but it wasn't developed for one.

The success and failure of these games is more than a straight number of sales comparison. It's about expectations and forecasts. LR was most assuredly expected to sell far better than Bravely Default, and was budgeted accordingly. This is cemented by the fact that S-E decided to not publish Bravely Default themselves.

 

[HypocrisyGalore]

You're ignoring the size of each platform's consumer base, marketing budget, and development budget of the two games. Also the fact that one is from an established IP vs. a new IP. I wouldn't call LR a niche game. I certainly don't think Square-Enix considers it to be one.

The 3DS isn't exactly unpopular, and as for marketing and development budgets, lets see them before using them as evidence. At the very least it's readily obvious LR wasn't a huge project.

As for how SE views LR, I think the fact that they specifically avoided starting its title with "Final Fantasy" and didn't call it XIII-3 is a good indication that they never viewed it as a "flagship Final Fantasy." The game didn't sell great, but I doubt they were going for more than 1 million worldwide.

 

[exfatal]

I enjoyed BD alot, loved the combat, and job system, and i was interest in the story. The voice acting was great for Edea, Ringabell, and Tiz, Agnès voice acting was alright but sometimes she was a little too much. The last few chapters (not the second half like everyones trying to say) is drawn out for sure, but definitely doesn't ruining the experience for the past chapter plus the Sidequests are good and offer you more to learn about the characters which i enjoyed. I put in 120 hours into that game before finishing it, sooo obviously i didn't mind the second half. too be honest i dotn even know how to not get the true ending :s

 

[DXB-KNIGHT]

Good

 

[HypocrisyGalore]

LR seems to be the proxy for the boogeyman that is modern FF (take your pick, XIII series, FFs since X, FFs since VI, etc)

Which is funny because it's open world, gameplay focused, relatively coherent in its storytelling.. It's really not representative of any trend in FF lately, aside from continuing the XIII mythos + Lightning (and even in that respect it's making me appreciate those silly characters more than ever)

BD also appears to be a banner for old schoolers who have been bitter since VII.

Yep.

I mean I like Bravely Default a lot, from the story to the characters to the battle system I think it's very well made, but what happens in the later chapters is far worse than the suffocating linearity of XIII, and the only way I can believe that tons of people are calling for the game to be a blueprint for future RPGs is to assume that many of those people didn't actually play it.

 

[Cuburt]

Good.

Why are people trying to discredit this?

Because it's being compared to Lightning Returns?

I've put 50 hours into BD already and I've been really enjoying it.

 

[Shinta]

My point is that the game may be catering to a niche audience, but it wasn't developed for one.

The success and failure of these games is more than a straight number of sales comparison. It's about expectations and forecasts. LR was most assuredly expected to sell far better than Bravely Default, and was budgeted accordingly. This is cemented by the fact that S-E decided to not publish Bravely Default themselves.

I just don't know what the marketing budgets or development budgets are for these games. How long did BD take? LR was made in 1.5 years, roughly, as far as we know.

Bravely Default had an extravagant concert series, OST by the guys who did the music for Attack on Titan, physical marketing I saw myself at Gamestop, and was featured prominently in multiple Nintendo Directs and on the eShop.

I didn't see any physical marketing for LR. I mostly saw trailers and videos released online only, and interviews with Kitase, Toriyama and Abe. The biggest thing they did for it was the reveal where they just showed a powerpoint presentation and had 2 people on stage (Toriyama, Abe).

 

[mrpeabody]

Kagari has access to certain NPD numbers. This "BD sold more than LR" thing is coming from what she said.

You are free not to believe it as it's not confirmed officially, but a lot of what we accept as usable NPD numbers come from leaks, so it's weird to draw a line in the sand on this one.

LR outsold BD at retail, you can get that in the first post of the NPD thread. For digital, we have BD already but not LR, and NPD doesn't include digital. So how can she know? If anything, with the available information I'd say it's likely that LR sold more.

Doesn't matter. We knew LR was going to be a big decline from XIII-2 just because it's a sequel to a sequel. BD made a strong showing and that's good news.

edit: Forgot that super-secret NPD data includes estimates for digital. I didn't realize they went down to the title level with that.

 

[theprodigy]

LR outsold BD at retail, you can get that in the first post of the NPD thread. For digital, we have BD already but not LR, and NPD doesn't include digital. So how can she know? If anything, with the available information I'd say it's likely that LR sold more.

Doesn't matter. We knew LR was going to be a big decline from XIII-2 just because it's a sequel to a sequel. BD made a strong showing and that's good news.

oh really?
you want to bet on LR having that kind of digital rate?

 

[injurai]

I would say it's a megaton, but SE have already buried the XIII saga, and XV will hugely outsell BD.

FFX HD will outsell them both

Hopefully Square has resolved it's internal struggles. I know there was a lot of compitiion and egos surrounding the XIII team. Now they know what projects the fans want.

Final Fantasy 4 Heroes of Light deserved to do the same. These two games are better FFs than the FF13 "series".

FF4HoL is probably the prettiest game on the DS. The art direction is just immaculate.

 

[HypocrisyGalore]

I know there was a lot of compitiion and egos surrounding the XIII team. Now they know what projects the fans want.

Seriously? Are we just gonna make things up now to push the "Toriyama and his cronies are evil and ruining Final Fantasy" agenda?

 

[injurai]

Seriously? Are we just gonna make things up now to push the "Toriyama and his cronies are evil and ruining Final Fantasy" agenda?

You obviously don't even know what it is that I am talking about. I also don't appreciate you putting words into my mouth.

 

[HypocrisyGalore]

You obviously don't even know what it is that I am talking about.

Care to inform me then?

Though I doubt you have some secret knowledge that I wasn't made privy to all these years of following the series quite closely.

 

[Kagari]

LR outsold BD at retail, you can get that in the first post of the NPD thread. For digital, we have BD already but not LR, and NPD doesn't include digital. So how can she know? If anything, with the available information I'd say it's likely that LR sold more.

Doesn't matter. We knew LR was going to be a big decline from XIII-2 just because it's a sequel to a sequel. BD made a strong showing and that's good news.

edit: Forgot that super-secret NPD data includes estimates for digital. I didn't realize they went down to the title level with that.

No.

 

[Coxy]

good, hopefully x/x-2 does as well and we can get past the dark ages of Final Fantasy

 

[Tizoc]

Did the game sell well in Europe?

 

[Pureauthor]

Did the game sell well in Europe?

Hahahahahaha.

No.

 

[HypocrisyGalore]

Hahahahahaha.

No.

Numbers?

 

[injurai]

Care to inform me then?

Though I doubt you have some secret knowledge that I wasn't made privy to all these years of following the series quite closely.

My comment alluded to 2 things.

1.) There was a friendly competition between Nomura and Toriyama's team. I hope these sales hit home that XIII is on the way out and fans eager to leave it behind.

2.) XIII's team had troubles involving a lack of unified direction. A lot of people kept requesting new features, without ever seeing the game form a cohesive vertical slice. Hence egos, but don't take that way of describing it with too much weight.

I think you just assumed I was coming at this topic with the same vitriol that many others do, average case scenario you would have been safe to assume.

 

[Tizoc]

Hahahahahaha.

No.

Just as I thought, I don't recall seeing it in the PAL charts at all, which just seemed odd for me at the time.

 

[Hero]

Ah, Shinta, the entire reason you weren't on my ignore list yet was for this very thread.

 

[Videoneon]

Hard numbers! Resident Evil 3 sold more than Devil May Cry 4! What does it all mean!?!?!?!

The 3DS isn't exactly unpopular, and as for marketing and development budgets, lets see them before using them as evidence. At the very least it's readily obvious LR wasn't a huge project.

Stop trying to mitigate the disappointing nature of LR's performance relative to the context of reasonable estimated characterization of its budget, and comparison to BD's context.

As for how SE views LR, I think the fact that they specifically avoided starting its title with "Final Fantasy" and didn't call it XIII-3 is a good indication that they never viewed it as a "flagship Final Fantasy." The game didn't sell great, but I doubt they were going for more than 1 million worldwide.

The last of a trilogy of games suddenly isn't flagship final fantasy even though the second one was? It's as if they knew that the XIII name was tainted. Also, your last comment about low expectations shows that Square was informed by the pronounced drop from the first to the second, and seeing how the reality panned out, they predicted right. Whoever branded it or whatever just made the best of the situation.

I just don't know what the marketing budgets or development budgets are for these games. How long did BD take? LR was made in 1.5 years, roughly, as far as we know.

Short of an extremely unlikely disclosure from the company itself, we're not going to know, and we're certainly not going to get anything concrete even if so unless it's years down the line.

This doesn't prevent us from grasping that game production for both is obviously different.

Bravely Default had an extravagant concert series, OST by the guys who did the music for Attack on Titan, physical marketing I saw myself at Gamestop, and was featured prominently in multiple Nintendo Directs and on the eShop.

I didn't see any physical marketing for LR. I mostly saw trailers and videos released online only, and interviews with Kitase, Toriyama and Abe. The biggest thing they did for it was the reveal where they just showed a powerpoint presentation and had 2 people on stage (Toriyama, Abe).

Another disingenuous one. Don't act like the promotion of Lightning the character and her story isn't bigger than just the one game in Lightning Returns. Also, the BD concert wasn't for NA promotional purposes, and it came on the heels of the first version of BD's success. As for your Gamestop anecdotes, I counter them with my own saying I have seen physical marketing for LR, so boo hoo. I'll bet that Lightning Returns was also advertised through PSN and XBL, so there goes the proprietary advertising system angle.

 

[ronito]

Somewhere in square there's a very confused executive saying, "I don't understand. I mean lightning wasn't even in that game!"

 

[Espada]

This is very good news. I hope this gets Bravely Second localized much faster than the first game, and forces SE to shelve Lightning for a considerable span of time. Getting outsold by a brand new IP is proof enough that Lightning isn't as popular as SE says.

 

[HypocrisyGalore]

My comment alluded to 2 things.

1.) There was a friendly competition between Nomura and Toriyama's team. I hope these sales hit home that XIII is on the way out and fans eager to leave it behind.

2.) XIII's team had troubles involving a lack of unified direction. A lot of people kept requesting new features, without ever seeing the game form a cohesive vertical slice. Hence egos, but don't take that way of describing it with too much weight.

I think you just assumed I was coming at this topic with the same vitriol that many others do, average case scenario you would have been safe to assume.

Okay, I see what you mean then.

Though I don't think the sales of LR will or should cause SE to abandon Kitase and Toriyama. After all, Kitase is responsible for all of FF's most popular and best selling entries, and Toriyama played a significant role in one of the most popular games too (X).

His reputation was essentially martyred this gen so that the rest of SE's teams could catch up to HD development, and I don't think that should prevent him from getting an other shot at a mainline FF, though I would prefer Kitase to be the executive director.

 

[Mpl90]

It's good to say it, and this time I can.






I CALLED IT!!!!

 

[injurai]

Okay, I see what you mean then.

Though I don't think the sales of LR will or should cause SE to abandon Kitase and Toriyama. After all, Kitase is responsible for all of FF's most popular and best selling entries, and Toriyama played a significant role in one of the most popular games too (X).

His reputation was essentially martyred this gen so that the rest of SE's teams could catch up to HD development, and I don't think that should prevent him from getting an other shot at a mainline FF, though I would prefer Kitase to be the executive director.

I certainly wasn't saying Square should abandon either of them. Especially not Kitase, and as for Toriyama I feel he ended up mostly rolling with the punches XIII ended up dealing itself. I blame a lot of XIII's presentation issues on localisation, so it's hard for me to get huffed at how Toriyama approached the Japanese version when I have no cultural and language ground to experience it and thus judge it.

In part they really damaged themselves by putting off western QA until it was too late. Which is why I think they just rolled with the punches. Fans are entitled to their opinions of the games, I certainly don't agree with the hyperbole directed towards individuals on the teams though. My original comment though a bit vague a concede, obviously was looking at the team dynamics as a whole.

 

[botty]

Did it even outsell Kingdom Hearts 1.5?

 

[Shinta]

Stop trying to mitigate the disappointing nature of LR's performance relative to the context of reasonable estimated characterization of its budget, and comparison to BD's context.

Lightning Returns turns into whatever it needs to be on here so that people can put it down as much as possible. I can't count how many conversations and debates people had on here, insisting that Lightning Returns wasn't a AAA game, and it looked unbelievably rushed. I think I even remember Kagari arguing that LR was barely even marketed at one point, which I agree with.

Now, critics are insisting it's a massive AAA undertaking. It's just weird to see how fast that switches. People were insisting that wasn't the case when the low reviews hit just 4 weeks ago.

And budget doesn't even matter that much in the point I was making about sales for both games, and how they represent the "future of FF." Regardless of what BD's budget is, it still sold to a small niche audience. They sold almost the same, and both are not really that impressive, unfortunately. People are literally looking at less than 30k sales difference and making statements about how BD should now represent the direction the series goes in.

I mean, people called XIII-2's 3 million sales a horrible failure despite outselling Deus Ex and The Witcher 2. But 200k sales of BD is the future? None of it makes a damn bit of sense. It's just about shitting on the XIII series, everyone's favorite sport. People pick what is a success or a failure based on completely fleeting, contradictory nonsense.

Don't act like the promotion of Lightning the character and her story isn't bigger than just the one game in Lightning Returns

I literally don't know what this means. I'm counting marketing for just Lightning Returns.

 

[HypocrisyGalore]

I certainly wasn't saying Square should abandon either of them. Especially not Kitase, and as for Toriyama I feel he ended up mostly rolling with the punches XIII ended up dealing itself. I blame a lot of XIII's presentation issues on localisation, so it's hard for me to get huffed at how Toriyama approached the Japanese version when I have no cultural and language ground to experience it and thus judge it.

In part they really damaged themselves by putting off western QA until it was too late. Which is why I think they just rolled with the punches. Fans are entitled to their opinions of the games, I certainly don't agree with the hyperbole directed towards individuals on the teams though. My original comment though a bit vague a concede, obviously was looking at the team dynamics as a whole.

Yeah, I agree.

One problem with modern SE that I think doesn't get enough attention is the current localization team. With every game that gets released I get this distinct perception that they think they're better writers than the original writers and attempt to "improve" the originals with overly flowery dialogue that just ends up confusing at best, pretentious at worst. Things like making up "the Maker" in XIII just served to make the story much harder to follow than it ever should've been.

 

[Supermanisdead]

um, what are the numbers? we don't have any real information other than the NDP rankings that list LR above BD. and i doubt 3ds' online store gets more downloads than ps3/360 stores.

insider source lol.

 

[starmud]

now its time for nintey to take the horns and localize fantasy life god damnit

 

[jackal27]

You guys crack me up. So many of you will sit here and rag on minor details of what could or could not have made Bravely Default a "good" game in your eyes...
...Then you'll sing the praises of extremely flawed games like Dragon's Dogma or The Last Remnant to the heavens for all eternity.

Personally I'm really excited to see this and what it could mean not only for more JRPG localizations, but more RPGs in general on my 3DS! This is what we want Squeenix!

 

[HypocrisyGalore]

You guys crack me up. So many of you will sit here and rag on minor details of what could or could not have made Bravely Default a "good" game in your eyes...
...Then you'll sing the praises of extremely flawed games like Dragon's Dogma or The Last Remnant to the heavens for all eternity.

Personally I'm really excited to see this and what it could mean not only for more JRPG localizations, but more RPGs in general on my 3DS! This is what we want Squeenix!

I like Bravely Default a lot, but you can't seriously call what happens in the last chapters a "minor detail." That one giant flaw is far bigger than any of the problems in Last Remnant or Dragon's Dogma (or any of the FF XIII games for that matter).

 

[HeelPower]

I dunno whenever I think about LR it makes me really sad.


Its just such a steep drop off in quality for the series.

 

[TuXx]

Good, maybe Square will get the message and will start listening to the fanbase instead of making games that no one wants to play expect for Toriyama.

Seriously, It took them 2 years to develop Lightning Returns and XV is going on its ninth year of development, WTF!

 

[Wishmaster92]

After all these Years... it's finally happening.

 

[Paracelsus]

Phyrric victory, they actually managed to milk a mediocre entry in the series throughout an entire generation. They still won the war and won't learn their lesson.

 

[BocoDragon]

I dunno whenever I think about LR it makes me really sad.


Its just such a steep drop off in quality for the series.

I think it might be the best XIII game.

 

[Dark_castle]

Good, maybe Square will get the message and will start listening to the fanbase instead of making games that no one wants to play expect for Toriyama.

Seriously, It took them 2 years to develop Lightning Returns and XV is going on its ninth year of development, WTF!

Basically Square Enix should have never announced Versus XIII on 2006 along with the other two games. It should be officially announced during the 1st Production Premiere Event on 2011 where this trailer was released, which was also around the time the game actually received full development treatment.

 

[ZeroX03]

Lightning Returns turns into whatever it needs to be on here so that people can put it down as much as possible. I can't count how many conversations and debates people had on here, insisting that Lightning Returns wasn't a AAA game, and it looked unbelievably rushed. I think I even remember Kagari arguing that LR was barely even marketed at one point, which I agree with.

Now, critics are insisting it's a massive AAA undertaking. It's just weird to see how fast that switches. People were insisting that wasn't the case when the low reviews hit just 4 weeks ago.

And budget doesn't even matter that much in the point I was making about sales for both games, and how they represent the "future of FF." Regardless of what BD's budget is, it still sold to a small niche audience. They sold almost the same, and both are not really that impressive, unfortunately. People are literally looking at less than 30k sales difference and making statements about how BD should now represent the direction the series goes in.

I mean, people called XIII-2's 3 million sales a horrible failure despite outselling Deus Ex and The Witcher 2. But 200k sales of BD is the future? None of it makes a damn bit of sense. It's just about shitting on the XIII series, everyone's favorite sport. People pick what is a success or a failure based on completely fleeting, contradictory nonsense.

It doesn't make sense to you because you're taking any details or excuse you can to support your own idealized view of the XIII series.

Bravely Default is sold to an install base of 40+ million systems, as a new IP.

XIII-3 is being sold to an install base over 3x larger, from a franchise that has sold over 100 million units.

That is a good showing from Bravely Default. It's not the next Pokemon but it's a respectable showing for a niche genre on a much smaller system. XIII-3's sales and critical reputation are garbage for the series it belongs to. If XIII-3 had sold 30k more than BD it still would've been a disappointment and BD a success.. This is not a matter of opinion, it sold and reviewed poorly. The only reason you'd deny that - the same reason you demand hard numbers - is because you want XIII-3 to be in a better place than it is.

 

[Shinta]

It doesn't make sense to you because you're taking any details or excuse you can to support your own idealized view of the XIII series.

How is my view idealized? I've barely even said what I think about the games in this thread. Said less than almost everyone actually, on purpose. I merely said I played both BD and LR, and I prefer one over the other. I actually didn't even say which one lol. That's how little I've said on it in this thread.

That is a good showing from Bravely Default. It's not the next Pokemon but it's a respectable showing for a niche genre on a much smaller system.

I disagree. I've explained why. I hope Nintendo is happy with the numbers, as I'd get the sequel if they localize it. 200k doesn't represent anything but a very niche RPG though, under any circumstances.

This is not a matter of opinion, it sold and reviewed poorly.

I don't know why you are acting like I've ever said otherwise in this thread. I've said they both sold poorly, and they both literally sold almost exactly the same amount.

And I know how low LR reviewed. I pointed it out in the reviews thread many times. It's rated almost exactly the same as The Last Remnant and NieR on Metacritic. Same as Lords of Shadow 2 actually. I've enjoyed all 4 games a lot more than the critics apparently.

The only reason you'd deny that - the same reason you demand hard numbers - is because you want XIII-3 to be in a better place than it is.

I demand numbers because it's impossible to have any kind of accurate or meaningful conversation without them.

I don't demand LR is in any place other than what it is. I'm already enjoying the game, and no more XIII games are coming, regardless of how it sold.

 

[TheFLYINGManga_Ka]

This should show that Square Enix needs to get their act together and think of the fans first.

DQVII 3DS would even sell more than LR I bet.

 

[Pikma]

It's really awesome how Nintendo has found a really good formula to succesfully release traditional RPGs in the west.. DQVII, or Advance Wars, should be next.

 

[Mpl90]

It's really awesome how Nintendo has found a really good formula to succesfully release traditional RPGs in the west.. DQVII, or Advance Wars, should be next.

It wasn't that difficult...just release them in February in US, and you win!!!

 

[Dark_castle]

It's really awesome how Nintendo has found a really good formula to succesfully release traditional RPGs in the west.. DQVII, or Advance Wars, should be next.

I have a feeling SMT x FE which is likely a (S)RPG has been migrated to 3DS from Wii U. Or I hope. It just makes more sense that way since the two franchises made appearance on the handheld and have established a large fanbase there instead of their home console.

 

[Shinta]

I have a feeling SMT x FE which is likely a (S)RPG has been migrated to 3DS from Wii U. Or I hope. It just makes more sense that way since the two franchises made appearance on the handheld and have established a large fanbase there instead of their home console.

Fire Emblem tends to have a console entry. I think it's probably still on Wii U. If they don't say anything this E3, I'll start to worry.

If FE:A is pulling sales numbers lower than BD, it's not a massive factor either way.

 

[Jawmuncher]

This is a good sign in many ways. Not only might this encourage Square-Enix to release more games like BD and less like FF13, but Nintendo might even consider bringing over some other JRPGs like DQ.

I'm hoping that's the plan.
I would be all for DQ on 3DS since i have never played any of them.