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[HypocrisyGalore]

I think the whole process of "niche" game/genre players finding vindication in game sales really unsightly in its desperation. The resentment that drives people to that is too much for me to stomach. Wouldn't be so bad if it was localized to pissing contest threads like this, but you can't have a stable thread on an assortment of topics without it; it is even popping up in OT titles lol.

I just hope SE is less hesitant to localize stuff on platforms with terrible region locking.

Finding validation is sales in general is quite strange.

Sales only matter in the sense that commercial products need to sell well enough that their creators, financiers, and intellectual properties can continue to thrive.

 

[ScriptedReality]

Time to put Lightning in Bravely Default 2.

Or Bravely Default DLC outfits in Lightning Returns.

this is only funny because its true lol

 

[Boogybro]

So hopefully Bravely will be to Final Fantasy what A link Between Worlds has been to Zelda.

Finding validation is sales in general is quite strange.

Sales only matter in the sense that commercial products need to sell well enough that their creators, financiers, and intellectual properties can continue to thrive.

So guess why these people feel validated then.

 

[hipsterpants]

I want to be happy about this but Bravely Default is an extremely flawed game with terrible writing (which I guess makes it like the 13 saga lol). Bravely Second has a mountain of potential though.

 

[Kagari]

The reason FFX HD outsold LR In Japan in the first place was due to the very strong Vita sales. I already mentioned that I do not think those Vita sales will be there in the US.

No but the PS3 sales will probably be greater given KH HD outsold LR by quite a bit.

 

[HypocrisyGalore]

I just want my Dragon Quests

I definitely agree with this sentiment.

 

[213372bu]

It's also difficult to say just how much Lightning has hurt the brand overall.

I can tell you now it hasn't. Literally everyone I know, (anecdotal of course,) was hyped over the "new Final Fantasy", and honestly nobody really seemed to know/care about Lightning... really the only "character" mentioned was Cloud, who I guess they thought was in the trailer. I'm expecting some record breaking numbers for the new installment when people who don't even care about games thought it was looking good.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

It's also difficult to say just how much Lightning has hurt the brand overall.

The next trial should be FF X HD.

 

[sörine]

Finding validation is sales in general is quite strange.

Sales only matter in the sense that commercial products need to sell well enough that their creators, financiers, and intellectual properties can continue to thrive.

You're right, sales do matter in the sense that it signals what creators, franchises, genres, etc continue. That's exactly why people are finding validation in these results where one game seemingly performed better than expected and outsold a game that didn't. And it's extra significant as it's a game the publisher passed over themselves. People are just championing what they want more of.

 

[charlequin]

FFXIII sold about 7 million, but not in the first month. FFXV will hopefully pull numbers like that or bigger.

There is no conceivable way on this Earth.

They follow the sales numbers. Every developer in Japan is looking at mobile and f2p, because they are exploding in popularity at the same time console sales are shrinking.

I don't say that for narrow reasons like "omg i haet that Suckware maek fone gaem!!" I say that because Square-Enix's output decreased dramatically (their console output this last generation was minimal and they canceled more SKUs than they released), their timelines crept up (four consecutive mainline FFs have now had delays of 2 years or longer beyond their original intended release date due to poor project management and unrealistic goals), their quality decreased (shrinking Metacritic numbers and user satisfaction ratings on all Japanese franchises), their brands weakened (every Japanese franchise owned by SE has worse brand awareness and perception than it did five or ten years ago), and their staff quality declined (as well-heeled project leads and high-profile creators left the company or disappeared into XIV's hungry maw.)

By basically any measure, Square-Enix's Japanese development is in a shambles and their brands are unlikely to ever come close to their previous highs. Bravely Default is a pinpoint of light in the darkness, an indicator that some audience still exists for what Square-Enix used to be good at, but even that's not much hope, both because it's selling like a very successful niche game rather than a mainstream one, and because Square-Enix themselves are no longer capable of developing games like this without hiring an external studio to do it for them.

 

[Hero]

Not to mention they didn't even have enough faith to publish Bravely Default in the west.

If it wasn't for Nintendo it would've been Type-0 all over again.

 

[chaosblade]

Not to mention they didn't even have enough faith to publish Bravely Default in the west.

If it wasn't for Nintendo it would've been Type-0 all over again.

Or worse, considering they seem to be set on making Bravely Default a franchise. Seems they were planning something like that for Type-0 with the Type-1, Type-2, etc trademarks but it seems to have died off in favor of mobile nonsense instead.

 

[charlequin]

The reason FFX HD outsold LR In Japan in the first place was due to the very strong Vita sales.

It's not like the Vita buyers in Japan are a whole additional market of potential buyers who don't exist here. You'll just see a 90/10 split in SKUs towards PS3 here.

Of course, mention to the same people that FF XIII outsold every FF other than VII and VIII

I would be curious to see your documentation of higher lifetime sales for XIII than X.

 

[Toth]

You're right, sales do matter in the sense that it signals what creators, franchises, genres, etc continue. That's exactly why people are finding validation in these results where one game seemingly performed better than expected and outsold a game that didn't. And it's extra significant as it's a game the publisher passed over themselves. People are just championing what they want more of.

There is some strange logic people are making here though and I am still trying to decipher this. LR mostly likely outsold BD WW (According to the PAL Chart threads, outside of the UK, LR opened first in most international markets). Even if the WW sales end up closer together, the message this sends SE is nothing more that a new DS title based uponFF can sell as much as an experimental spinoff title of a subseries not critically acclaimed outside of Japan (by experimental, I mean open world, time based, action based ATB). Even in the US, LR probably sold less with digital sales of BD by maybe 30/50k units? How do these identical sales therefore send the message people want games like BD and not LR? It instead points more to a small market shared by fans of both series over here.

Maybe BD selling 2-3x more than LR would really send some kind of message to SE but that's just not the case with what we see here with the data.

 

[Videoneon]

I think the whole process of "niche" game/genre players finding vindication in game sales really unsightly in its desperation. The resentment that drives people to that is too much for me to stomach. Wouldn't be so bad if it was localized to pissing contest threads like this, but you can't have a stable thread on an assortment of topics without it; it is even popping up in OT titles lol.

I think the sheltered and lazy nature of this post is unsurprising considering your history.

It would be one thing for certain games to be simply be more commercially viable than others, but when consumers have to deal with an incompetent company like Square and with the well known commercial hostility to the mid-tier/polarizing of output (the very small and very big,) taking solace in Square's mistakes and finding more rallying points is understandable. More constructive in spirit if done with the expectation that Square changes course.

It should be restated that Square-Enix did not originally intend for this game to come to the West at all when there was palpable demand. Their not publishing it is a signal of their lack of confidence. Confidence they reserve for their mobile output and their AAA endeavors, but not for things like this.

In the near term there's no practical reason to assume that the industry will make massive changes in development to accommodate all sorts of titles or whatever else is flawed with the economics, or that all sorts of companies change the way they are managed (which doesn't necessarily mean "make more jrpgs.") When there's a concrete rallying point like what's offered here, there's a small hope.

 

[Padawan of Windu]

Oh how that fills me with immense pleasure.

 

[HypocrisyGalore]

I would be curious to see your documentation of higher lifetime sales for XIII than X.

Do you have any documentation proving the contrary? The last numbers SE released for XIII and X show XIII as selling more. And funnily enough:

Of course, mention to the same people that FF XIII outsold every FF other than VII and VIII and all of a sudden either sales don't matter or SE lied about the numbers.

 

[Tripon]

Not to mention they didn't even have enough faith to publish Bravely Default in the west.

If it wasn't for Nintendo it would've been Type-0 all over again.

What is up with Type-0 anyway? Sony seemed willing to localize it, I do not understand why Square-Enix is this protective of Type-0 when they were willing to let Dragon Quest and Bravely Default go.

 

[rjc571]

Bravely Default's sales were probably helped out a lot by its demo, while the Lightning Returns demo probably hurt its sales instead.

 

[ArtHands]

There is some strange logic people are making here though and I am still trying to decipher this. LR mostly likely outsold BD WW (According to the PAL Chart threads, outside of the UK, LR opened first in most international markets). Even if the WW sales end up closer together, the message this sends SE is nothing more that a new DS title based uponFF can sell as much as an experimental spinoff title of a subseries not critically acclaimed outside of Japan (by experimental, I mean open world, time based, action based ATB). Even in the US, LR probably sold less with digital sales of BD by maybe 30/50k units? How do these identical sales therefore send the message people want games like BD and not LR? It instead points more to a small market shared by fans of both series over here.

Maybe BD selling 2-3x more than LR would really send some kind of message to SE but that's just not the case with what we see here with the data.

Bravely default is a brand new title in the west, on a portable with a lesser install base and have significantly lesser marketing.

Lightning return carries a long running rpg series branding, and it have 2 prequels on 2 major consoles.

Its not the amount of the margin, but the fact that bravely default go against all odds and produced a result of which nobody has expected, especially SE who have no enough faith to even publish the game in the west. Its like watching a team of new rookies winning a match against a strong and experienced team in a sports game when everyone was preparing to see the major team tearing the rookies apart. Its not about how big is the win margin. Its about the unexpected outcome of the result.

 

[Storm Chamber]

A redo most of chapter 2 and 3 also wouldn't hurt

Spoiler

Go to the airship and go back to the ship on the sea. Go into the tavern and talk to the man at the right of the leftmost table. Travel to Caldisla. Go into the inn. Travel to Hartschild. Go into the Goodman Residence. Go back to Caldisla. Enter the palace. Now go back to the ship.

Go into the tavern, then go to the market area. Go up to enter the next area. Travel back to Caldisla and go to the inn. Go back to the ship. Go to the Bridge area (north of the market), then inspect the engine.

How about no.

Did this today and I can't lie, I got tired of it.

Really, I should've seen it coming after the

Spoiler

Performer

sidequest

 

[blitzwolf215]

What is up with Type-0 anyway? Sony seemed willing to localize it, I do not understand why Square-Enix is this protective of Type-0 when they were willing to let Dragon Quest and Bravely Default go.

Maybe Nintendo will pay to have it ported and localized on the 3DS.

 

[Yagharek]

By basically any measure, Square-Enix's Japanese development is in a shambles and their brands are unlikely to ever come close to their previous highs. Bravely Default is a pinpoint of light in the darkness, an indicator that some audience still exists for what Square-Enix used to be good at, but even that's not much hope, both because it's selling like a very successful niche game rather than a mainstream one, and because Square-Enix themselves are no longer capable of developing games like this without hiring an external studio to do it for them.

I'm not an expert on Japanese culture, nor the FF/DQ series, but this seems to be a very reasonable appraisal of the situation.

I wasn't able to get any Square games in the 16 bit era, but when Square was at its peak on the PSX they were releasing a great variety of games (I'll ignore Enix here since they ignored PAL markets). Think Bushido Blade, Tobal, Vagrant Story and of course the breakout success of FFVII and VIII.

It's hard to imagine how far they have fallen.

Still, I do resent that we never got Ehrgeiz, Tobal 2, Brave Fencer Musashi, Einhander or Bushido Blade 2 in PAL. Along with DQVII, Chrono Cross, Chrono Trigger (until 2009), among many, many others.

 

[Riposte]

I think the sheltered and lazy nature of this post is unsurprising considering your history.

It would be one thing for certain games to be simply be more commercially viable than others, but when consumers have to deal with an incompetent company like Square and with the well known commercial hostility to the mid-tier/polarizing of output (the very small and very big,) taking solace in Square's mistakes and finding more rallying points is understandable. More constructive in spirit if done with the expectation that Square changes course.

It should be restated that Square-Enix did not originally intend for this game to come to the West at all when there was palpable demand. Their not publishing it is a signal of their lack of confidence. Confidence they reserve for their mobile output and their AAA endeavors, but not for things like this.

In the near term there's no practical reason to assume that the industry will make massive changes in development to accommodate all sorts of titles or whatever else is flawed with the economics, or that all sorts of companies change the way they are managed (which doesn't necessarily mean "make more jrpgs.") When there's a concrete rallying point like what's offered here, there's a small hope.

I don't know why you think Lightning Returns is "AAA" and not "mid-tier", but hey, sure, I can see how you can interpret the result as a good thing...

...What about the guys releasing a satisfying "yesssssss" while reveling in their revenge, like they just watched a guy they really, really dislike slip on ice? I can't help but think in the case of those short posts this has more to do with the Lightning boogeyman being bested by a "real" "Final Fantasy" the "real" "fans" always wanted, which makes me feel a little disgusted by their respecting of the arena that "real fans" usually (and, frankly, should) think themselves above. It reeks of desperation. It is reflective of an air of resentment that makes the majority of the discussion for this game pretty hard to read through as someone is casually observing from the outside. All the in-fighting during the preview threads made reading them feel like sucking on a gutter.

Also I wonder what my history says, though I do speak down to resentment whenever I see it.

 

[HypocrisyGalore]

What is up with Type-0 anyway? Sony seemed willing to localize it, I do not understand why Square-Enix is this protective of Type-0 when they were willing to let Dragon Quest and Bravely Default go.

I'm almost sure it'll get ported to the Vita, PS3, PS4, or all three and localized. Tabata has already suggested that there are some plans to bring it over.

 

[sörine]

There is some strange logic people are making here though and I am still trying to decipher this. LR mostly likely outsold BD WW (According to the PAL Chart threads, outside of the UK, LR opened first in most international markets). Even if the WW sales end up closer together, the message this sends SE is nothing more that a new DS title based uponFF can sell as much as an experimental spinoff title of a subseries not critically acclaimed outside of Japan (by experimental, I mean open world, time based, action based ATB). Even in the US, LR probably sold less with digital sales of BD by maybe 30/50k units? How do these identical sales therefore send the message people want games like BD and not LR? It instead points more to a small market shared by fans of both series over here.

Maybe BD selling 2-3x more than LR would really send some kind of message to SE but that's just not the case with what we see here with the data.

You're reading too much into it, what we have here is a case of a small game overperforming versus a big game underperforming. And the small game was one SE themselves passed over for foreign markets. Their takeaway is simply going to be projects like Bravely Default are maybe worth investing in more, and worth localizing more, while doubling down on projects like Lightning Returns maybe isn't such a worthwhile investment anymore.

That BD outsold LR probably isn't of much consequence to SE as a comparison. It's just a neat little symbolic victory for the fans.

 

[chaosblade]

while doubling down on projects like Lightning Returns maybe isn't such a worthwhile investment anymore.

To be honest, I think this would be kind of an unfortunately takeaway. Especially if Drakengard 3 doesn't do well. That would send the message that mid-tier games on consoles aren't worth the effort, which is something that's been discussed a lot of GAF - a lot of us want MORE mid-tier games that demonstrate more risk taking that generally results in more interesting (if flawed) games. Not just design-by-committee, focus-group'd AAA games .

It's hypocritical, but I would have considered buying Lighting Returns day one if it wasn't XIII or even Final Fantasy related. As it is I'm waiting for a price drop, so I'm not really helping the cause in that regard.

 

[Hero]

What is up with Type-0 anyway? Sony seemed willing to localize it, I do not understand why Square-Enix is this protective of Type-0 when they were willing to let Dragon Quest and Bravely Default go.

A while back JSchreier did an interview/article on XSEED about how they got work and games to localize. Anyway, they said this towards the end:

"Most of the big names that people keep requesting from us over the years, we've been in talks on," Berry said. "There's a couple that we were right there... like one that would've pretty much shocked the industry if we could've announced it. But for whatever reason, at the very end, maybe some executives at the company just realized that this brand is too important to their company to license out to another company. Even if their U.S. branch isn't going to publish it, they can't let anyone else publish it."

It's speculation on my part but I think Final Fantasy Type-0 is what was being referred to here. It's hard to think of another game that hasn't come out in the past few years that would fit this description.

Source: http://kotaku.com/5971695/the-game-savers-how-a-tiny-company-gives-neglected-japanese-games-new-life-in-america

 

[SoraanTribal]

To be honest, I think this would be kind of an unfortunately takeaway. Especially if Drakengard 3 doesn't do well. That would send the message that mid-tier games on consoles aren't worth the effort, which is something that's been discussed a lot of GAF - a lot of us want MORE mid-tier games that demonstrate more risk taking that generally results in more interesting (if flawed) games. Not just design-by-committee, focus-group'd AAA games .

It's hypocritical, but I would have considered buying Lighting Returns day one if it wasn't XIII or even Final Fantasy related. As it is I'm waiting for a price drop, so I'm not really helping the cause in that regard.

I agree with you for the most part. To the people saying Lightning Returns was AAA, um.. no it certainly wasn't. Maybe if you only watched the intro and ending sequences (CG), you would think that, but... as someone who actually played the entire game, it's far from AAA. Mid-tier is the best way to describe it.

I'm actually curious no how much SE expected to sell considering the massive drop with XIII-2. Surely they had their expectations in line, right?

 

[ZeroX03]

Still, I do resent that we never got Ehrgeiz, Tobal 2, Brave Fencer Musashi, Einhander or Bushido Blade 2 in PAL. Along with DQVII, Chrono Cross, Chrono Trigger (until 2009), among many, many others.

We did get Ehrgeiz, FYI.

 

[Brazil]

For some reason sales numbers only mean something when they can help your argument.

LR didn't sell well because its a terrible game. Of course, mention to the same people that FF XIII outsold every FF other than VII and VIII and all of a sudden either sales don't matter or SE lied about the numbers.

This happens in absolutely every FF-related thread. It's embarassing and sad to watch.

 

[Toth]

To be honest, I think this would be kind of an unfortunately takeaway. Especially if Drakengard 3 doesn't do well. That would send the message that mid-tier games on consoles aren't worth the effort, which is something that's been discussed a lot of GAF - a lot of us want MORE mid-tier games that demonstrate more risk taking that generally results in more interesting (if flawed) games. Not just design-by-committee, focus-group'd AAA games .

It's hypocritical, but I would have considered buying Lighting Returns day one if it wasn't XIII or even Final Fantasy related. As it is I'm waiting for a price drop, so I'm not really helping the cause in that regard.

Given the quality of the game it is an obviously a middle tier title that SE decided to test out in the market using a familiar brand that was selling (albeit less) in Japan. I think SE will be happy with selling around a million worldwide.

 

[Kagari]

I don't know why you think Lightning Returns is "AAA" and not "mid-tier", but hey, sure, I can see how you can interpret the result as a good thing...

...What about the guys releasing a satisfying "yesssssss" while reveling in their revenge, like they just watched a guy they really, really dislike slip on ice? I can't help but think in the case of those short posts this has more to do with the Lightning boogeyman being bested by a "real" "Final Fantasy" the "real" "fans" always wanted, which makes me feel a little disgusted by their respecting of the arena that "real fans" usually (and, frankly, should) think themselves above. It reeks of desperation. It is reflective of an air of resentment that makes the majority of the discussion for this game pretty hard to read through as someone is casually observing from the outside. All the in-fighting during the preview threads made reading them feel like sucking on a gutter.

Also I wonder what my history says, though I do speak down to resentment whenever I see it.

SE considered it AAA.

 

[Jazzy Network]

I'm not much of a sales guy and haven't played either game in question, but goddamn is FFXIII awful.

 

[Maintenance]

Balance is restored. Bring on Bravely Second.

 

[Amir0x]

thank the Gods. That'll send a clear message.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

SE considered it AAA.

I can believe that given their past comments about having an annualized franchise a la AssCreed (without realising that it needed more than reused targets to pull it off)

 

[Toth]

SE considered it AAA.

Well, If SE can make a cheaper 'AAA' title like LR, they need to share their secret with the industry. Taking out the time mechanic and using a better graphics engine, you may have something solid as a foundation for future titles.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

Well, If SE can make a cheaper 'AAA' title like LR, they need to share their secret with the industry..

You will notice that much of the usual AAA money went to marketing.

 

[BocoDragon]

That BD outsold LR probably isn't of much consequence to SE as a comparison. It's just a neat little symbolic victory for the fans.

This fan actually prefers experimental RPGs on home consoles rather than retro-throwback RPGs.

I say this as someone who bought both BD and LR... my heart is honestly with LR-style games more. I'm a fan... this news kind of irked me. Though I am happy to see BD succeed, it troubled me more to see a console FF under-perform.