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EDGE: Sony’s VR tech will be revealed at GDC

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
No no no no no no no!

Try an Oculus Rift dev kit and then tell me 720p is "good enough." It's not. It's absolutely atrocious for VR to the point where normal sized text is very hard to read. The problem is your vision is focused on a small part of the screen rather than the screen as a whole. It reminds me of playing PC games at 640x480. It's THAT bad.

There's things you can do about text, I've seen demos for DK1 where text on screens and surfaces around you is - supposedly - perfectly legible.

I do wonder what a DK1 with a better screen would be like - i.e. with much reduced screendoor and no ghosting/blurring etc. I think you could improve on the display experience of DK1 quite a bit without necessarily improving the resolution.
 

Rixa

Member
This really isn't a well kept secret. An SOE exec mentioned the Sony VR a couple of months ago. The RAM count of the PS4 was kept completely secret until the second they revealed it, that was impressive. I am surprised we haven't seen a blurry shot of the device yet though.

Yeah words but no pics. Oh well I know more when I wake up (its 21.00 tuesday evening here). Kinda way to wake up, tune gaf from phone and see whats up.
 
(1st post, really excited lol.) Anyways I'm a huge fan of VR, even tho I've never tried it. I really hope this succeeds on a decent scale, so that VR does have a future and it doesn't fall down the path of irrelevancy like it did in the 90's after it failed. I want Sony and Oculus to continue investing into this technology so it gets better and better, to the extent that the screens and sensors will be cheap and good enough that the headsets no longer receive a bump in them when they upgrade. Instead the headsets would be bundled with other tools that help you immerse yourself into the game, like, for example, control input, an attachment that would send vibrations to your body so you can feel, etc.

I know it sounds bizarre but ever since a kid I've always envied imaginary worlds that I saw in animations, video games, and movies. I've always felt our world was boring and uninteresting in comparison, and let's face it, life gets so hectic for people sometimes I feel as tho some people would flock at the chance to enter another reality, even for a moment, I know I would. Anyways what I'm hoping for out of the first iteration of this product is the following:

-$300 enthusiast headset. PS VR+ (1080P Super AMOLED, PS Move, PS EYE, head-tracking, very low latency.)
-$150 Casual's headset PS VR (900P LED, headtracking, low latency.)
-An action adventure game built ground up for VR, think like SOTC, Attack on titan scale.)
- All the major sport titles getting a VR Mode.
- A PS4 bundled with a casual headset for $500.
- A PS4 bundled with PS VR+ for $600.
-Sony makes a small profit on the hardware, $2-$5.
-VR games with late life PS3 graphics(which is fine for VR, of course the games will have MUCH higher res textures, just less effects and polygons and more AA), thus reducing the development costs.
-A decent advertising push.
- SAO

yeah, that sounds pretty awesome.
 
well its time for home. See you on the other side Gaf ;)

pastor-jet.gif
 

Piggus

Member
There's things you can do about text, I've seen demos for DK1 where text on screens and surfaces around you is - supposedly - perfectly legible.

I do wonder what a DK1 with a better screen would be like - i.e. with much reduced screendoor and no ghosting/blurring etc. I think you could improve on the display experience of DK1 quite a bit without necessarily improving the resolution.

Screen door and blurring on DK1 is bad, but imo the resolution is the most distracting even when I'm downscaling from 1080p. It's still an amazing experience but 1080p resolution would help to address multiple issues at once - IQ, reduced screen door effect, more readable text, etc.
 
(1st post, really excited lol.) Anyways I'm a huge fan of VR, even tho I've never tried it. I really hope this succeeds on a decent scale, so that VR does have a future and it doesn't fall down the path of irrelevancy like it did in the 90's after it failed. I want Sony and Oculus to continue investing into this technology so it gets better and better, to the extent that the screens and sensors will be cheap and good enough that the headsets no longer receive a bump in them when they upgrade. Instead the headsets would be bundled with other tools that help you immerse yourself into the game, like, for example, control input, an attachment that would send vibrations to your body so you can feel, etc.

I know it sounds bizarre but ever since a kid I've always envied imaginary worlds that I saw in animations, video games, and movies. I've always felt our world was boring and uninteresting in comparison, and let's face it, life gets so hectic for people sometimes I feel as tho some people would flock at the chance to enter another reality, even for a moment, I know I would. Anyways what I'm hoping for out of the first iteration of this product is the following:

-$300 enthusiast headset. PS VR+ (1080P Super AMOLED, PS Move, PS EYE, head-tracking, very low latency.)
-$150 Casual's headset PS VR (900P LED, headtracking, low latency.)
-An action adventure game built ground up for VR, think like SOTC, Attack on titan scale.)
- All the major sport titles getting a VR Mode.
- A PS4 bundled with a casual headset for $500.
- A PS4 bundled with PS VR+ for $600.
-Sony makes a small profit on the hardware, $2-$5.
-VR games with late life PS3 graphics(which is fine for VR, of course the games will have MUCH higher res textures, just less effects and polygons and more AA), thus reducing the development costs.
-A decent advertising push.
- SAO

yeah, that sounds pretty awesome.
SAO??
 

Danneee

Member
People should let the ideas of several sku:s go. It's never going to happen, maybe different bundles but not deferent specs.
 

StuBurns

Banned
It might be good to lock in some predictions.

I don't think we'll get the price, although I think it'll be $300 with a pack-in mini-game collection, announced at E3.

I also don't think we'll get anything like a line up, but I think at E3 we will, and it'll be something like this: Daylight, EverQuest Next, Minecraft, Project CARS, Strike Suit Zero, The Witness, Until Dawn, DriveClub, Everybody's Gone to the Rapture, Outlast, SOMA, No Man's Sky

As for what I do expect to be revealed, the mini-game collection, maybe as tech demos that will be a mini-game collection announced at E3, a look at DriveClub, the specs, OLED, 960x960x2, 90Hz, and a launch window, Q4'14, maybe Q1'15, it requires the current camera, and Sony are targeting both DS4, and Move/Navi as the two standard interfaces.
 

FrunkQ

Neo Member
No no no no no no no!

Try an Oculus Rift dev kit and then tell me 720p is "good enough." It's not. It's absolutely atrocious for VR to the point where normal sized text is very hard to read. The problem is your vision is focused on a small part of the screen rather than the screen as a whole. It reminds me of playing PC games at 640x480. It's THAT bad.

I HAVE an Oculus Rift Dev Kit and it is 640x800 per eye. Sony having 1280x720 per eye. So 1.8 times the resolution.

The big issue with the Rift is the screen-door from the selected display and the massive magnification to the centre pixels from the lens. This is what happens if you use cheap off the shelf components.

Sony makes displays, so there are a few options to boost the already 1.8 times pixel density and also gets rid of the lens colour aberration you get on the edge of the display. We have seen Sony patents to address this issue.

Idea 1 - A curved display? (not really Sony's bag - more LG and Samsung doing that type of thing) although Sony does have micro-displays they use in viewfinders, etc that may be flexible.
Idea 2 - why make the pixel density linear across the display? If you are shifting RGB pixels to compensate for chromatic aberration, whey not make the centre of your display higher density than the edges.

Both of these may be far fetched but when you *make* displays these options open up and become cost effective when mass produced sufficiently.

So yeah - 720p per eye may well be sufficient, and at the same time in the range that the PS4 can conformably render at 60fps. As I said... not perfect... not "the best"... but good enough and CHEAP enough for widespread adoption.
 

Durante

Member
As for what I do expect to be revealed, the mini-game collection, maybe as tech demos that will be a mini-game collection announced at E3, a look at DriveClub, the specs, OLED, 960x960x2, 90Hz, and a launch window, Q4'14, maybe Q1'15, it requires the current camera, and Sony are targeting both DS4, and Move/Navi as the two standard interfaces.
You expect them to use 2 screens, and custom-built ones for this VR headset?

Sony makes displays, so there are a few options to boost the already 1.8 times pixel density and also gets rid of the lens colour aberration you get on the edge of the display. We have seen Sony patents to address this issue.
Chromatic aberration is really the least of DK1's problems. Pixel fill rate ("screendoor") can be addressed by using an OLED display (which is the best choice anyway, but even so you really do need higher resolution. Even at 8xSGSSAA on the Rift DK1 e.g. in HL2 there simply isn't the spatial resolution to accurately target enemies which are further away. Never mind fidelity!

Personally, I think even a single 1080p screen isn't really sufficient, but it's probably the best we'll get for first-gen consumer HW.
 
It might be good to lock in some predictions.

I don't think we'll get the price, although I think it'll be $300 with a pack-in mini-game collection, announced at E3.

I also don't think we'll get anything like a line up, but I think at E3 we will, and it'll be something like this: Daylight, EverQuest Next, Minecraft, Project CARS, Strike Suit Zero, The Witness, Until Dawn, DriveClub, Everybody's Gone to the Rapture, Outlast, SOMA, No Man's Sky

As for what I do expect to be revealed, the mini-game collection, maybe as tech demos that will be a mini-game collection announced at E3, a look at DriveClub, the specs, OLED, 960x960x2, 90Hz, and a launch window, Q4'14, maybe Q1'15, it requires the current camera, and Sony are targeting both DS4, and Move/Navi as the two standard interfaces.

Launch in time for Christmas pls Sony

Edit:

Ain't no way I'm playing Outlast in VR. That game is scary enough on the TV!
 
Sword Art Online. A popular japanese anime based around a VR MMO. It has a huge cult following in Japan and America, would see great success if done correctly imo. And by correctly I mean, it makes you feel as if you're in an anime with the graphics and whatnot.
Haha, I guessed it but wasn't sure. Sword Art Online and .Hack games done well with VR with a reasonable price, I'd be down to buy all 3. As long as the writer of SAO isn't involved in the game's script though!

ogdwuv.gif
 

Skeff

Member
As we've started the guessing I'll go for one screen in the same manner as 2ds, with " 2 " viewable screens combined res of 1080p, mini games, drive club and a media molecule creative game to be shown.
 
Sword Art Online. A popular japanese anime based around a VR MMO. It has a huge cult following in Japan and America, would see great success if done correctly imo. And by correctly I mean, it makes you feel as if you're in an anime with the graphics and whatnot.

Every otaku's wet dream.
 

Durante

Member
Well I would guess they use the full 960x1080, no? There's really no reason not to if you're not trying to converse performance.
Well, one reason is optics and per-eye FoV. You'd get a wide vertical FoV compared to horizontal. In any case, 960x960 and 960x1080 really isn't a particularly large difference -- and neither of those resolutions is going to be close to "native" in actual appearance anyway.
 

StuBurns

Banned
Well, one reason is optics and per-eye FoV. You'd get a wide vertical FoV compared to horizontal. In any case, 960x960 and 960x1080 really isn't a particularly large difference -- and neither of those resolutions is going to be close to "native" in actual appearance anyway.
Yeah, certainly true.

But yeah, I think it'll be just a 1080p panel, they could get a 1920x960 panel produced, but I'm sure it would cost more than 1080p.
 

Durante

Member
Just out of curiousity, does anyone know what the price differential between a 3840x2160 and a 1080p screen is? Are they that significantly more expensive?
No one builds a 4k OLED screen of the right size, so it's impossible to say, at least for outsiders. (Sony could probably decide to build one if they wanted to, but they couldn't really drive it)
 

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
Screen door and blurring on DK1 is bad, but imo the resolution is the most distracting even when I'm downscaling from 1080p. It's still an amazing experience but 1080p resolution would help to address multiple issues at once - IQ, reduced screen door effect, more readable text, etc.

For sure, the higher res the better.

However I think it would be curious to see what a lower-res signal, but better screen, would look like - IF it allowed wireless operation, and standy-uppy interaction etc. If games specifically targeted that kind of mode, and worked around the lower res by avoiding longer range interactions etc. the tradeoff might be worthwhile.

Then plug in a wire for seated, 1080p operation or whatever.

That's a big what-if, though. Per the above conversation there may be a big cost question around wireless for first gen devices anyway.
 

StuBurns

Banned
Just out of curiousity, does anyone know what the price differential between a 3840x2160 and a 1080p screen is? Are they that significantly more expensive?
There are none mass produced really. The next jump would be QHD, 1440p, but even that isn't in phones yet. I think there's a chance Rift CV1 will be QHD though, depending on how far out it is. 4K isn't happening though.
 
No one builds a 4k OLED screen of the right size, so it's impossible to say, at least for outsiders. (Sony could probably decide to build one if they wanted to, but they couldn't really drive it)

How about 2,560 x 1,440? I think I heard about a smartphone planned for that size. Basically I just sort of want to get a sense as to how quickly the component cost goes up with the resolution bump.
 
Yes, there would need to be a dongle both sides, or dongle+batterypack on the hmd side. The T3W came with a box for transmission but it included processing for other additional things... compression should not be needed, the standard handles uncompressed video.

If the cost is high, something like this could maybe be marketed as an accessory. In that case wirelessness would be more a comfort thing rather than something that could inform game design. The feasibility of even an accessory would also depend on Sony's resolution/framerate goals. If they want something more than 1080p/60, then wireless may not be an option at all right now. However if they were willing to reduce res to accomodate higher refresh rates while in a wireless mode, or give the user that choice, then it might be an option for them.

Sony could always release a more expensive variant of the headset later on. Upgrading a VR headset won't be like getting a new console since it won't break compatibility with existing games. It will be like getting a new TV for an example.

I say Sony will be releasing a wired version at low cost initially and move on to releasing higher end version later on if VR proves to be successful.
 

DieH@rd

Banned
I'm still wildly oscillating between uncontrollable hype and utter skepticism. Will they? Won't they? Arrgghhh!

I'm fully convinced that Sony can deliver excellent hardware, VR experience and software support for small price.

HOWEVER.

There is a good chance that they will fumble it by not supporting PC and integrating their VR into popular modern engines.





They NEED to attract indie devs, to give them great access to this new ecosystem of entertainment, to hunt them all down and beg/pay for ports. Oculus is coming soon, they need fantastic software support from everyone.
 

Into

Member
I really hope this actually gets revealed tonight and isn't just another massive hype train that goes nowhere.

I think your prediction/expectation is right

They will probably mention VR, and maybe even show how it looks like, but any actual information wont be revealed. You wont know much more after the reveal than you do now, that is how little we will know.

My expectations are at a minimum

But i got Champions League footie now so whatever!
 

Nafai1123

Banned
How about 2,560 x 1,440? I think I heard about a smartphone planned for that size. Basically I just sort of want to get a sense as to how quickly the component cost goes up with the resolution bump.

Cost really has to do with mass production. It's unlikely that phones are going to pass QHD resolution (I just don't see the point), so VR would need to be the driving force behind higher resolution small panels. If VR becomes massively successful the cost could come down, but until then I think even 1440p panels are going to be significantly more expensive than 1080p.

My guesses are:

1080p OLED panel (960x960x2 actually used)
Wired (wireless will come, but I think it's too expensive ATM)
Will use PS Eye for positional tracking
Driveclub will be demoed along with some other examples. No new game announcements (yet)
Latency and pixel persistence will be discussed
No price, release date or final hardware will be shown. More to come at E3.
 

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
yosp is, like, openly responding to tweets that refer to the panel as a 'VR panel' and other jokes about virtual reality.

B4SiMni.png


0YNkEU1.png


I don't know. If it was me, I'd be quietly ignoring tweets like this if VR was not on the cards...

Then again, yosp can be a master troll ;)
 
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