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[EmCeeGramr]

Didn't people hate SF4 at first because it was "slow and boring" compared to 3S

 

[theprodigy]

This is a thread of Lucina.

That means it's a thread of war, remember yesterday?

 

[diaspora]

Didn't people hate SF4 at first because it was "slow and boring" compared to 3S

IIRC, yes.

 

[OricWindstar]

Didn't people hate SF4 at first because it was "slow and boring" compared to 3S

I believe so.

 

[ffdgh]

This is a thread of Lucina.

Ha! A lowly clone doesn't deserve to have such praise.

 

[Mr. Smiley]

Didn't people hate SF4 at first because it was "slow and boring" compared to 3S

A lot of people did and some still do because of it's 'defensive' play. And yet-

 

[Distresssss]

That means it's a thread of war, remember yesterday?

Well we know she has her own spot (which was obvious)

Now we can just talk about how awesome she is.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Didn't people hate SF4 at first because it was "slow and boring" compared to 3S

I remember the game used 3D hitboxes early on in development and playtesting made them change it.

There was also a really loud roar about the lack of parrying, how trivial focus attacks made projectiles, and how much leeway the dragon punch input had this time when the game finally came out. Now everyone agrees those were good changes or overreacted in the first place, in the case of the focus attack thing.

 

[Toxi]

Eeeeeeeehhhhh I don't know about that one. They're equally unbalanced if anything. Ultimate made the ensemble of the cast better as a whole, but in tourneys you still see mostly the same pool of 10 characters over and over.

Vanilla was unbalanced in the most stupid ways imaginable. Wesker could get a combo off a fullscreen gunshot.

If you think Ultimate is unbalanced now, imagine how scary Magneto and Zero would be with their vanilla abilities.

 

[BGBW]

This is a thread of Lucina.

More like lunacy.

 

[zroid]

This is a thread of Lucina.

Speaking of which... who called Neorice's Lucina avatar?

 

[IntelliHeath]

You know what would be great?

Ness in the potential Shulk trailer. He's exploring the brand, expansive world of Xenoblade.

That's what I want. Imagine Monolith Software's trailer with Shulk and Mothers' characters. Remember those rumor that Monolith would do Mother 2 remake!

 

[Spinluck]

I love UMvC3.

I cannot believe I bought the DLC for vanilla MvC3 though lol. Oh well, I learned my lesson regarding Capcom fighters.

 

[OricWindstar]

A lot of people did and some still do because of it's 'defensive' play. And yet-

Oh man, hadn't thought of that connection. Regardless of how Smash turns out in competitive's eyes, I'm really curious to see the evolution of its fan base.

 

[8 X 11 Printer Paper]

Didn't people hate SF4 at first because it was "slow and boring" compared to 3S

Yes, I say give it 4-6 months after Wii U Smash's release before people who are on the competitive scene change their views.

OT: Now that the leaker doesn't know everything my hope for Captain Rainbow lives on!

 

[JoeInky]

Do you need a cross to crawl up on or have you supplied your own

I always carry one around with me. Comes in handy, this thing.

Honestly. News to me. What the hell was wrong with the E3 Build?

Please, enlighten.

Increase the window for dash dancing

Alright, some people have already pointed to videos where characters are "dash dancing" in the current build, but they seem to misunderstand the use of dash dancing and what is happening in the current build.

A dash dance is basically where you just change direction mid dash, simple as that, when you start a dash there's a certain window of opportunity where you can reverse and start dashing in the other direction.
This just gives you more control over your character, it doesn't lock you into an unsafe dash and allows you to play mindgames with the opponent trying to force them to read whether you're going to go straight in with a dash attack/aerial or delay it a bit and react to what they do.

It's literally just pressing the stick in the opposite direction so it's not a complex input and it doesn't offer the character any real physical advantage other than the mind game aspect, so it's not something that is too complicated for the casual gamer and I believe is pretty intuitive honestly.

In the current build, the window where you can change direction is dramatically reduced to the point where you can only do it by staying in the same spot, you travel no actual distance so it's usefulness as a bait is negligible.

Less landing lag

Ok, one of the changes in this game is a general increase in landing lag, I'm completely fine with the increased lag when you do an air dodge, I think that's a great way of stopping people from spamming it so much.
But the increased landing lag when you do an aerial attack is something that again limits movement options, because it keeps you stuck on the ground unable to do anything for longer it ruins your ability to followup an attack with another to have some form of combo game, some people say "well that just increases the effectiveness of ground based approaches right? It stops people from spamming aerials too because they're not safe anymore, how is that bad?"

At a very basic level I could see why someone might think this, but 95% of the characters are based around an aerial game and you don't increase the effectiveness of ground-based characters by nerfing everyone elses aerial game, you do it by improving the ground game of those characters (stuff like super armour on moves to stop them being knocked into thee air as much is what helps, see P:M bowser).

There are quite a few people then that have been asking for some form of Lag-cancelling (the official term is soft landing), this is where, in melee and 64, you press a button several frames before you land to decrease the amount of landing frames, what this does is increase the viability of offensive approaches rather than giving all the advantage to the person on defense.

Me? I hate L-Cancelling, there is no reason whatsoever to not lag cancel your move and it's an annoying input to time, especially for people like me with slow reactions and bad muscle memory.

So what a lot of people have proposed is to just reduce lag off of aerials in general, you feel less stuck to ground unable to do anything for long periods of time but I generally want something different that would improve the combo game but also give more opportunities for a punish game.
A good balance would be to make moves have less landing lag if you connect with either a player or a shield, but if you miss the attack because the other player dodges, then you get the increased lag that can lead to a punish, aerial characters get to keep their combo game but they still have risk if they just constantly try to short hop aerial you all the time.

Momentum conservation
Ever wondered why captain falcon sucked in brawl despite having buffs? This is the reason (as well as no L-Cancelling, but this hurt more I think).
In melee, if you ran and jumped, as opposed to jumping from a stand still, you jumped further due to the conservation of momentum, it makes the game more fluid and just makes more sense in general, they removed this in brawl so you always just jumped the same distance regardless of your speed.
It allows characters based around being fast to actually make more use out of that speed and doesn't require any extra inputs or anything, it's just something that makes sense.

I think those are just the basics, there's a few other things I've forgotten that certain people want and certain people don't (I've probably forgotten at least 1 actually important one), but this is what a lot of people consider necessary to make smash 4 really good as a competitive game.

There's also one or two other things that are easier to add in than momentum conservation, but I keep forgettin- Crouch cancelling, that's the other thing, there was no crouch cancelling.

 

[Neiteio]

I remember the game used 3D hitboxes early on in development and playtesting made them change it.

There was also a really loud roar about the lack of parrying, how trivial focus attacks made projectiles, and how much leeway the dragon punch input had this time when the game finally came out. Now everyone agrees those were good changes or overreacted in the first place, in the case of the focus attack thing.

Pardon my ignorance, but how do 3D hit boxes work in a 2D game? Does that mean that the hitbox is literally the profile of the polygonal character model?

 

[Troubled Bat]

Speaking of which... who called Neorice's Lucina avatar?

Blakimpaler

 

[Jaeger]

PPMD summed it up succinctly - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIcb25IM8Zc&list=UU5WNBHwgluAwWJE5QV-5_TA#t=121

Naw, not really. The man just said it felt different from Brawl and Melee when it came to movement speed. He also said "the game is still in development." Which is a big duh.

And we will better know where 4 stands after the actual finished product comes out, and people have more than 36 hours (or way less), with limited 4-way matches with items on, to figure this all out.

That's not fucking playtesting.

 

[Mista Koo]

Just a consensus: From all the reveal trailers shown so far, which do you think is the best one?

I think that the Megaman reveal is still the best

Spoiler

sorry for the bias

. But the last reveal is the equal of it for me.

Has to be Wii Fit Trainer!
In terms of "I did not see that coming" it has to be Greninja then Robin, we weren't expecting them after the reveal trailer started.

The only thing about Ms. Pac-Man I'm not sure about is that her name will have to appear on the box otherwise it would look weird under "Pac-Man". Villager/Wii Fit Trainer/Robin don't have this problem. Unless of course the name simply changes like how it did with Charizard/Ivysaur/Squirtle and Zelda/Sheik. However, now that transforming characters were gone, this would be the only exception.

Also, why is she called Ms. Pac-Man and not Pac-Woman or Pac-Lady lol

Mahvel had a M.O.D.A.M alt for M.O.D.O.K:

Spoiler

I do realize the difference in how relevant the characters are though.

 

[georly]

Didn't people hate SF4 at first because it was "slow and boring" compared to 3S

Yeah, people adjust, things change, smash 4 will be different. I think the concern is that, even if it's balanced and a good fighter, it might favor playing defensively over offensively. While a viable tactic, it's far less fun to watch when played competitively, so less people will watch it and it'll get less attention in the community. If stalling is a valid tactic, the game will fail to catch on in the FGC at large. It needs to be fun to watch AND play.

SF4, UMVC, Melee, BlazBlu, Tekken, etc. are all really fun to watch. Brawl can often be pretty boring to watch.

 

[Anth0ny]

Why show up to tournaments for a game you don't like?

Uh, if the game is inferior to Melee, then it's probably not worth having it played at Evo. Pretty much why Brawl was cast to the winds.

I personally don't think it's fair to quit on a game like a new Smash Bros, which we only get once every 6 years, without going to some tournaments first and really giving it a shot. I knew from day one that something was "off" with Brawl. But I wasn't going to quit the game and completely shit on it right there. I wasn't going to throw this game that I hyped up to the heavens out into the garbage. I adapted from the quick paced Melee to the slower Brawl, and that first year was pretty fun, honestly.

It wasn't until the game got more figured out and Meta Knight started really dominating that I couldn't take it anymore. Will Smash 4 have its own Meta Knight? Maybe. My point is, we will only truly know after at least a year of competitive play. An Apex. An MLG. An Evo.

Give the game a chance, and if it's ass, it's ass. Melee will come back again, no matter how dead it may seem or how popular Smash 4 may become. We've proven we can do that. It's having its best year 13 years after launch. I wouldn't be surprised if we had another year like this 16 years after its launch.

Can't have both? Still I hope smash 4 makes a great first impression.

I honestly don't think Evo, nor Nintendo, would want both on the lineup.

 

[PadWarrior]

I hope greninja isn't an unlockable

 

[mentallyinept]

Didn't people hate SF4 at first because it was "slow and boring" compared to 3S

Lol, I still do to a point.

Not that high level play isn't interesting for me to watch, but 3S feels so much more fluid and seamless to me than SF4.

 

[Toxi]

It shouldn't matter if a game is boring to watch, it should matter if a game is boring to play.

 

[zroid]

Blakimpaler

Why won't Nintendo announce the Rhythm Heaven character already so I can finally get the one and only avatar I called :*(

 

[Kor of Memory]

This looks awesome, any chance you could send me the HR version?

And weighing in on the Mario representative debate. Wario, Yoshi, and Donkey Kong are a part of the greater Mario IP universe true. However, I think the only one you can make a fair argument for that banner is Yoshi, because he appears in the mainline Mario games on a semi-consistent basis. As far as I know, Wario only has only been featured in the DS remake of Mario 64, even though he featured as the boss of Mario: Six Golden Coins and Wario's Woods. Donkey Kong only appears in side-games like Kart, Party, and sports titles, same as Wario and Yoshi. Wario had his -world series for a while but now seems more focused in the Warioware collection. and Yoshi of course has the Island series, but since he's a featured role in most Mario games, I'm more inclined to agree he's with the other five.

My basic Representative breakdown is this;

Mario - Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, Rosalina (Yoshi?)
Wario - Wario
Donkey Kong - Donkey Kong, Diddy Kong
Yoshi - Yoshi

At this point, I almost feel Yoshi should fall back into the Mario series. His own series doesn't have enough original content to call his own. It's why it's so hard coming up with other reps for his series.

 

[diaspora]

There's also one or two other things that are easier to add in than momentum conservation, but I keep forgettin- Crouch cancelling, that's the other thing, there was no crouch cancelling.

Yes there was. Bowser at least had it IIRC.

 

[Jaeger]

All the above "issues" aren't issues. Not only are they minor, and who knows what will change between now and December, but they don't make the game less competitive or fun. Apparently, some people within the "competitive scene" don't understand that, in the least bit.

There's no tripping. That is what makes a game not competition worthy. Not landing lag, or fucking dash dancing.

I'm losing my shit. Hearing someone say they want this game to fail really pushed a button for me.

 

[theprodigy]

It shouldn't matter if a game is boring to watch, it should matter if a game is boring to play.

well if stream chat is to be believed, Melee is too slow so good luck guys /s

 

[zroid]

I hope greninja isn't an unlockable

probably won't be, if Brawl is any indicator all the announced characters should be available from the start, except possibly the third party ones

 

[fredrancour]

People were talking as if we got more definite info on how Lucina compares to marth.did i miss something?

 

[diaspora]

All the above "issues" aren't issues. Not only are they minor, and who knows what will change between now and December, but they don't make the game less competitive or fun. Apparently, some people with the competitive scene don't understand that, in the least bit.

There's no tripping. That is what makes a game not competition worthy. Not landing lag, or fucking dash dancing.

I'm losing my shit. Hearing someone say they want this game to fail really pushed a button for me.

Some characters with select moves has an excess number of recovery frames. 0/10

Though, really, the competitive community I think knows that Smash 4 is competitively viable, it's a vocal minority on Smash Boards and reddit that throws a fit.

 

[Tripon]

Didn't people hate SF4 at first because it was "slow and boring" compared to 3S

That is still true!

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Pardon my ignorance, but how do 3D hit boxes work in a 2D game? Does that mean that the hitbox is literally the profile of the polygonal character model?

2D hitboxes are basically, like

Imagine a character's body is covered in 2D rectangles and those rectangles make up a body's basic shape. The game is then based around how those rectangles interact with the other person's rectangles (and any rectangles they send out). They're not really perfect and don't always cover an entire character's model, they're like wearing holding up a sheet in front of them with Pin the Tail on the Donkey drawn on it.

3D hitboxes are like clothing for the the 3D model. They full wrap around a character's model. During attacks, the hand or foot or whatever is the active attacking hitbox while the full "suit" of hitboxes on the opponent is an active receiving hitbox.

Here's a good eventhubs write-up on 2D hitboxes: http://www.eventhubs.com/guides/2009/sep/18/guide-understanding-hit-boxes-street-fighter/

(I apologize if I got anything wrong here.)

 

[Spring-Loaded]

Any chance the final smashes already shown aren't final? Some are that needed to change haven't (DK's), some just seem exceptionally OP (ZSS). I can't remember if there were any previewed content in Brawl that changed for release.

 

[User 73706]

At this point, I almost feel Yoshi should fall back into the Mario series. His own series doesn't have enough original content to call his own. It's why it's so hard coming up with other reps for his series.

never forget storkgate tho

 

[PK Gaming]

Didn't people hate SF4 at first because it was "slow and boring" compared to 3S

It was also heinously unbalanced

 

[MrSaturn99]

why can't us smash bros learn to get along

It was funny as hell watching this play out at the time.

Fixed tinypic fail

Ha!

 

[mentallyinept]

It shouldn't matter if a game is boring to watch, it should matter if a game is boring to play.

To the competitive scene it does matter.

Boring to watch game means smaller viewership which means smaller prize pots which means fewer players.

 

[Kandinsky]

Goodness! Lucina looks so good in those potd.

 

[Karsticles]

Didn't people hate SF4 at first because it was "slow and boring" compared to 3S

It still is slow and boring.

 

[JoeInky]

I personally don't think it's fair to quit on a game like a new Smash Bros, which we only get once every 6 years, without going to some tournaments first and really giving it a shot. I knew from day one that something was "off" with Brawl. But I wasn't going to quit the game and completely shit on it right there. I wasn't going to throw this game that I hyped up to the heavens out into the garbage. I adapted from the quick paced Melee to the slower Brawl, and that first year was pretty fun, honestly.

It wasn't until the game got more figured out and Meta Knight started really dominating that I couldn't take it anymore. Will Smash 4 have its own Meta Knight? Maybe. My point is, we will only truly know after at least a year of competitive play. An Apex. An MLG. An Evo.

Give the game a chance, and if it's ass, it's ass. Melee will come back again, no matter how dead it may seem or how popular Smash 4 may become. We've proven we can do that. It's having its best year 13 years after launch. I wouldn't be surprised if we had another year like this 16 years after its launch.



I honestly don't think Evo, nor Nintendo, would want both on the lineup.

Most people are going to give the game a chance, it won't feel outright bad like Brawl did so people are naturally going to spend more time with it.

Also EVO will definitely not want both games, the FGC hated how "slow" the melee matches went by as it was (despite only going 30-40 minutes over and starting an hour late anyway).

Smash 4 will be the main tournament whereas there will probably be a community-organised melee side tournament for next EVO, after maybe a year and a half to 2 years, we'll probably know whether people will stick to 4, whether they'll go back to melee/project M or if there's going to be some sort of split.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

I honestly generally find Blazblue pretty boring and incomprehensible but was hyped as hell watching the grand finals this year.

 

[Cody_D165]

Made another quick wallpaper featuring Lucina if anyone wants.

 

[Zorfendor]

Updated that wallpaper for those who used it. Decided to change it from grouping by series, to grouping them in a way that looks good without having to mirror any characters. If you want the hi-res, I'll pm a link.

This is beautiful.

 

[Spinluck]

They would be if they hadn't already put me on ignore for daring to criticize anything whilst in their precious hugbox.

No cynicism allowed in a family-friendly thread such as this!

I do not put anyone ignore, and do not hold Internet grudges over fucking video games :lol. Anyone who does that needs to look at themselves, and family-friendly thread? There are dumb arguments in here like every other day, lol.

2D hitboxes are basically, like

Imagine a character's body is covered in 2D rectangles and those rectangles make up a body's basic shape. The game is then based around how those rectangles interact with the other person's rectangles (and any rectangles they send out). They're not really perfect and don't always cover an entire character's model, they're like wearing holding up a sheet in front of them with Pin the Tail on the Donkey drawn on it.

3D hitboxes are like clothing for the the 3D model. They full wrap around a character's model. During attacks, the hand or foot or whatever is the active attacking hitbox while the full "suit" of hitboxes on the opponent is an active receiving hitbox.

Here's a good eventhubs write-up on 2D hitboxes: http://www.eventhubs.com/guides/2009/sep/18/guide-understanding-hit-boxes-street-fighter/

(I apologize if I got anything wrong here.)

Let's talk about the touchy subject of Snake's up-tilt.

 

[JStein0222]

Any chance the final smashes already shown aren't final? Some are that needed to change haven't (DK's), some just seem exceptionally OP (ZSS). I can't remember if there were any previewed content in Brawl that changed for release.

Might be changed in terms of space they cover or amount of time they last but I doubt the actual attacks will change.
Shame too, most final smashes just don't seem... fun?

 

[Neiteio]

2D hitboxes are basically, like

Imagine a character's body is covered in 2D rectangles and those rectangles make up a body's basic shape. The game is then based around how those rectangles interact with the other person's rectangles (and any rectangles they send out). They're not really perfect and don't always cover an entire character's model, they're like wearing holding up a sheet in front of them with Pin the Tail on the Donkey drawn on it.

3D hitboxes are like clothing for the the 3D model. They full wrap around a character's model. During attacks, the hand or foot or whatever is the active attacking hitbox while the full "suit" of hitboxes on the opponent is an active receiving hitbox.

Here's a good eventhubs write-up on 2D hitboxes: http://www.eventhubs.com/guides/2009/sep/18/guide-understanding-hit-boxes-street-fighter/

(I apologize if I got anything wrong here.)

Thanks for the explanation. So I take it 3D hit boxes are potentially frustrating since each character's body shape is different, and so trying to learn frame data and what hits where is more finicky than if it were using 2D boxes and you generally knew that "if I strike within this distance, it will hit?"

 

[JoeInky]

Yes there was. Bowser at least had it IIRC.

Yeah, it was a quick edit.


Only Bowser has it so far (And it might only be on the 3DS version, actually), so it's hard for us to tell whether they were in the process of adding in crouch cancelling when the demo was finalised, or whether they were in the final stages of removing it, probably won't know till release.