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#GamerGate thread 2: it's about feminism in games journalism
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At least Blow made some sense and produced something noteworthy. TB is just a hack.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
I was actually planning on pre-ordering overgrowth after work just as a show of support to David. I've actually no real interest in the game - it's just not my cup o' tea - but it will at least make up for one of the sales some Gator was refunded back.
Edit: And now I want to see an alligator race added to his game that viciously attacks the other races while screaming it's about ethics.
More_Badass
Member
Game is awesome. Played it for almost 19 hours. The combat is so satisfying and fun
I don't really understand why Total Biscuit keeps hammering on the word 'consumer' in the context of all issues GamerGate talks about -- they seem pretty disconnected. But apart from anything to do with GamerGate, feminism, etc, I think there's a discussion to be had around the use of the 'consumer first' as a goal in games coverage in the first place. Do other people in here think of themselves as consumers first, with respect to gaming?
I think about this with other media. I read a decent amount of books. What would 'consumer first' mean respect to the fiction? I guess I'd want New York Times Book Review critics to consider fans of a series first?
Is 'consumer first' television/movies/fiction stuff that appeals to the greatest common demographic, or stuff with higher production quality?
Games are more expensive in general. So some people value things like replayability to maximize the value of their gaming purchase, but I'd hardly put that first. Frankly my Steam library has ten times more games than I could ever realistically play, so maximizing the value of my gaming dollars is pretty low on the list of priorities. It's nice to know if a game is broken or has frame-rate drops or whatever but that's not going to move a game to the top or bottom of the list either. So the whole 'consumer consumer' thing seems kind of strange to me. Just like it'd be strange to choose which books I read based on the ones that are the most amount of words for the cheapest price.
I think about this with other media. I read a decent amount of books. What would 'consumer first' mean respect to the fiction? I guess I'd want New York Times Book Review critics to consider fans of a series first?
Is 'consumer first' television/movies/fiction stuff that appeals to the greatest common demographic, or stuff with higher production quality?
Games are more expensive in general. So some people value things like replayability to maximize the value of their gaming purchase, but I'd hardly put that first. Frankly my Steam library has ten times more games than I could ever realistically play, so maximizing the value of my gaming dollars is pretty low on the list of priorities. It's nice to know if a game is broken or has frame-rate drops or whatever but that's not going to move a game to the top or bottom of the list either. So the whole 'consumer consumer' thing seems kind of strange to me. Just like it'd be strange to choose which books I read based on the ones that are the most amount of words for the cheapest price.
Wow. Vom. How disgusting.
robovanburen
Member
What bothers me about the whole "I do it all for the consumers!" schtick that he and others trot out is that, well, consumers don't all believe one thing. That should be clear from all the arguing on Twitter between these consumers.
Also:
Bain Hasn't had the same political bent that a lot of #GG figure heads have had. I think he got over enthused others shared his concerns and now his ego isn't letting him take a step back and realize he's thrown his name and reputation in with some very bad people.
Or Cynically, he's using #GG for more revenue since #GG generates clicks for many reasons.
On behalf of the sensible-headed people of Britain, I apologise. I am trying to redress that balance, but I only have six reviews to my name so far and thus don't have quite the same cultural outreach. :/
Ehhh...
Feels like a lot of distrust, ill-will and contempt all together. This feeling isn't going to do away any time soon, but at least all the negative energy that's been boiling for years is finally out there now.
I think once people cool off they'll be able to actually listen to each other and realize that everyone made a big deal out of nothing and hurt a lot of people as a result.
Feels like a lot of distrust, ill-will and contempt all together. This feeling isn't going to do away any time soon, but at least all the negative energy that's been boiling for years is finally out there now.
I think once people cool off they'll be able to actually listen to each other and realize that everyone made a big deal out of nothing and hurt a lot of people as a result.
They like it because they keep it separate.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
I had never heard of Total Buscuit before this (never got into the youtube videogame scene, really, or YT as a culture), so to me he's just a disingenuous twat.
Really, he makes a ham-handed logical error right off in his refutation, it's clear he isn't interesting in anything other than "winning," screw the truth.
Sorry I gave him even that single view.
Really, he makes a ham-handed logical error right off in his refutation, it's clear he isn't interesting in anything other than "winning," screw the truth.
Sorry I gave him even that single view.
Never meet your heroes.
KuwabaraTheMan
Banned
What a disgusting piece of filth. I knew the guy was a little crazy, but he's working really hard at becoming one of the shittiest people involved.
It's starting on my timeline.
Starting up a new YT channel (http://www.youtube.com/user/roomforgames/) for developer testimonies on inclusiveness in gaming, as well as the #roomforeveryone hashtag, if any of you NeoGAF-reading devs reading this would care to participate!
chaobreaker
Member
David Rosen of Wolfire Games had a brief spat with TB on twitter.
Yep. Before all this started I thought Adam Baldwin was a nice guy.
It doesn't settle down that way. #GG is just a explosion/extension of the MRA/tRP/TiA crowd. Those groups have been cruising along for a while. MRA stuff used to pop up on the second page of r/all regularly. Now it's been replace by KiA. It's all the same people being angry at the same things and making a fuss over the same topics. Just with a gaming flavor now.
They won't self-reflect on their actions because they honestly believe everything they do is justified.
I was kind of hoping Chris Kluwe would go in. He already retweeted that response from a gaffer a few pages ago.
TheBryanJZX90
Member
Absolutely. I feel exactly the same way. It really bothers me that so much of video game fandom, even on this forum, is based on consumption of games as a product rather than discussion of games as a creative work.
I really appreciated both your and Tomm's videos. I hope this reaches at least some people, it's a good effort.
More_Badass
Member
Post in this thread if you haven't already
http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=491431
Dozens of developers there
The anti-consumer thing is just a shield that youtubers will invoke anytime they're dealing with issues. Not to say it's just TB, nor that they haven't actually done real legitimate stuff on that end, but a lot of them really seem ready to shout about how everything they do is to protect the little guy.
But why should he be worried about his image in the media? He is the media.
crowphoenix
Banned
That's because viewing them as a consumable doesn't require a lot of thought. It CAN, but that thought is based around performance, control choices, and fun factor.
Viewing games creatively as well requires wondering about the intangibles such as why a character was used in that spot or wondering if that representation of women means something.
It's often not a super enjoyable experience; like examining the food at Taco Bell.
Anti-consumer, ethics in games journalism and bla bla; the GG crowd use dozens of shields at this point. This is what they look like to me:
And yeah, YouTubers love to pretend to be the voice of consumers when all they do is profit from that just as much as companies do profit from the uninformed consumers. A lot of people can identifiy with shitty angry personas.
Super late reply, but I'm pretty sure that was Jenn Frank.
http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/sep/01/how-to-attack-a-woman-who-works-in-video-games
thequickandthedead
Member
Has Angry Joe commented on GG at all? Similarly to TB he really tries to push the "fighting for the consumer" angle for his character so i'd be surprised if he didn't have something to say about GG.
Will do, thanks!
Inflammable Slinky
Member
hahahaha. you think this will actuallly stop. this whole bullshit started from internet drama about videogames, and it's gone on for months running on nothing but hurt feelings and bruised egos. At this rate i figure that we can get another 6 months out of "wanting to get the last word"
honestly i think twitter has rendered stuff like this self-sustaining.
Moral Panic
Member
Oops. Yes my mistake.
Glass Shark
Banned
Guys, we all just need to come to the table. The table is open to everyone. Sit around the table. There are plenty of chairs at this table. Please ignore all the harassment and attacks that are going on outside of the table.
Table.
Table.
He was pretty anti, discussed it a few weeks ago, not sure if anything since.
Dr_LucienSanchez
Banned
Christ, what a complete fuckhead.
He never claimed that Anita didn't receive death threats, if you actually listened to the soundcloud he directly stated that "I have no doubt that these threats exist" moments before. What he meant when he said they weren't "credible" was that nobody was actually seriously making an attempt at Anita's life.
Poor choice of words? Yes. But you shouldn't take stuff out of context like that.
I mean seriously, if true, how is the first question at this supposed round table that will never happen not "So TB, you think a woman has to die before the threats said about her are credible?"
Well, there are only so many stages to a hate group. They've hit the point where communication is pretty vital. Once all their concerns are addressed and they realize their concerns have nothing to do with their concerns, they'll start to realize what the actual problem is.
The sooner than happens the better.
IIRC he wasn't totally "anti" per se (seemed to think the movement was still redeemable, though then again it was a few weeks ago) but was calling it out on attaching itself to a bunch of toxic figures and ideas.
crowphoenix
Banned
Saying that the death threats aren't credible is a way to lessen them and a way to say that she and others reacting to them are being irrational. It's a silencing tactic.
He called GG overblown and annoying and called out Adam Baldwin and Thunderf00t about the GG movement and talked about Anita having to cancel her speech. He said he would have done the same thing as Anita, that people have the right to cancel a speech if they feel unsafe.
He did also go on to talk a bit about when you become a personality on the internet, there are unhinged people who make it their life mission to torment you and base their reality around you.
https://twitter.com/AngryJoeShow/status/523635471529046016
https://twitter.com/AngryJoeShow/status/523635676794060801
Shrike_Priest
Member
That is exactly the context people are taking it from
Saying that someone has received death threats, but that it's somehow not that big a deal (because she's still alive) is a massively douchey thing to do.
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