Alcotholic
Banned
The title change and additional information changes the meaning of my first post...
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Racial tensions at Yale lead to angry confrontations
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The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Okay this is some ridiculous shit
Seriously, wtf is going on with college aged people...
gamechanger87
Member
Lucky for us, all of them will be spit out of the real world and won't be put in a position of power to create a world in their likeness.
They may have some overall general concepts that are appealing, but the fact that these groups are willing to use childish tactics and wish for administrations to stifle free speech unless it is 100% in line with their world view is astounding.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Do you even use Tumblr?
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
What is going on is that we're seeing some people take reasonable grievances and turn them into overly dramatic confrontations. This girl is the equivalent of that 40 year old lady who gets into a shouting match at the McDonalds because they gave her a small fries instead of a medium
ClosingADoor
Member
These students are clearly out of line. If you disagree with something, debate it, not yell at people. That's kind of one of the reasons you go to a university, to widen your worldview and share articulated opinions and facts, and so together further debate and knowledge.
Skipping class because you are upset about an email, yelling at people in the street, calling for teachers to be fired. What a load of bullshit. They should be looking at themselves in the mirror and ask if they would find it acceptable if they were being treated that way.
Skipping class because you are upset about an email, yelling at people in the street, calling for teachers to be fired. What a load of bullshit. They should be looking at themselves in the mirror and ask if they would find it acceptable if they were being treated that way.
Zoe
Member
Pretty rich coming from the person who may have misconstrued the whole thing in the first place.
don't have an account but there are certain ones I used to follow and generally following the notes led to me others who believed they were fighting the good fight and what constitutes debate
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
But to be clear, is the difference people perceive between a situation like this and the current Missouri situation just the nature of the grievance, or the nature of the reaction? Obviously the Halloween costume thing is not nearly as large of a problem as the systemic racism evident at University of Missouri, but are these students out of line to have a negative reaction whatsoever? Or is it specifically that they got overly emotional over such a "small" thing, while the striking over a large issue is more dignified?
Obviously I understand the differences of magnitude, but I am curious how people perceive them on an ideological level, i.e is one more fundamentally unacceptable than the other?
Obviously I understand the differences of magnitude, but I am curious how people perceive them on an ideological level, i.e is one more fundamentally unacceptable than the other?
To be fair, and I say this as a Jewish male, that situation occurred over a decade ago. The students involved in that issue are now in their 30s, long out of college, and probably rolling their eyes at what's going on now.
Hasphat'sAnts
Member
There's a fundamental difference between swastikas drawn with feces versus some old lady asking, "maybe just ignore the offensive costumes?" At some point, you can't really compare the two.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Okay but is there a fundamental difference between a swastika drawn in feces and, say, students wearing blackface costumes? And if not, is there a clear line where we can universally say "yeah okay get upset about blackface costumes but don't get upset about this other costume?"
I guess what I'm saying is: were these students wrong to be upset at all, or is the problem in how they channeled their frustration?
Bo Knows GAF
Member
Yeah, we're seeing a slippery slope at this point with what will offend people honestly.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
People can get offended at whatever the fuck they want. Their reaction here is the ridiculous part. I have no problem ideologically with being upset or even expressing that you're upset or that you'd like a firmer response, the problems here are, from where I sit, entirely on the execution level: how quickly and dramatically they tried to escalate things
Red Mage
Member
Hari Seldon
Member
Comparing the two situations is basically dividing by zero. In Missouri you had legit racist people, in this story you don't have any racists at all, just 1 person sending an email saying basically "maybe you should consider taking care of your own problems instead of running to mommy".
ClosingADoor
Member
Was there any blackface costume? If that happens, sure, be upset about it, file a complaint and show the person doing that his behavior is unacceptable. But the university should not have a checklist in place for acceptable costumes, just in case someone might find something offensive. It is then better to have students debate that between themselves, then have an authority figure try to regulate every little part.
One is vandalism meant to intimidate, the other is just poor taste.
Regardless, these students live in imaginary safe space land.
dream
Member
I don't think there's a fundamental difference between the two examples you've given, just as I don't think there's a difference between those examples and someone being offended by a restaurant serving meat. Everyone has a right to be upset by whatever it is that upsets them.
What bothers me is the ways in which these people express their outrage. The quote that reads, "I don't want to debate; I want to talk about my pain" is incredibly emblematic of how these people auto-infantilize themselves.
Thaedolus
Member
I've said it before, I'll say it again: getting my intellectually-devoid shit wrecked in college was a key factor in developing my critical thinking capabilities. It wasn't comfortable, it wasn't safe, it made me sad to get trounced in front of other classmates, but it was necessary.
If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.
The witch hunt here is a classic logical blunder. These students have found a villain to hate and they're grasping for anything they can use as evidence of villainy. They're wrong and need to be shown that as soon as possible.
If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.
The witch hunt here is a classic logical blunder. These students have found a villain to hate and they're grasping for anything they can use as evidence of villainy. They're wrong and need to be shown that as soon as possible.
The difference is that there isn't a single costume a black person can wear that can denigrate the entire white race.
I love that black kids can even have their mentality, where I couldn't even formulate the thought of those questions, because of how deeply ingrained the culture was in myself.
The backpeddling from the student as she realizes people are actually digging into whether it happened is amazing and sad. It was just probably someone popping off on FB and assuming the worst - and then it got used as justification for "bigger issues at Yale" when the Yale students realized how idiotic they sounded. This "any and all means justify the end" bullshit is ridiculous.
Which of course, made the situation even worse, because now they're realizing how pro-censorship and un-progressive their actual beliefs are. Throwing in a healthy dose of sexism (how they went to the husband and basically demanded he keep his wife in line) and a little bit of Tea Party styled purity of ideology and race (they couldn't understand why the black Yale Dean didn't agree with them, because, well, he's black, he should agree with them of course!
Snowman Prophet of Doom
Member
The thing is, though, that nobody WAS wearing blackface. The email simply suggested that people should deal with racist costumes on an interpersonal level, and that surrendering to authority the right to a kind of free expression because we see no value in what is being banned in the here and now is potentially a greater loss than we may realize.
LegendofLex
Member
Maybe?
If you mean that there isn't a single costume a black person can wear that will evoke a history of violent appropriation and oppression of white bodies for the purpose of enslavement and racial superiority, then, yeah, sure.
But the rhetoric around whiteness very often does presume that whiteness is always appropriation and oppression and racism, and that's not so markedly different from the reverse presumption that blackness is demoralization and savagery.
We all think we know the world from behind the school bench until we actually get out to the real world and our personalities are humbled and our flaws revealed. Obama had the right of it when he said that University is where your ideals should be challenged and not just reinforced into a safe zone of opinions. Unfortunately that's not how it is today.
Maninthemirror
Banned
I remember reading an article that people shouldnt be coddled in college or the result will be bad..well is this the beginning?
LegendofLex
Member
I don't think it's the result of coddling. In fact, I think it's the result of exactly the opposite of coddling. (I see what people mean by "coddling," but I think it's only a partly useful word in this case.) College students today are very aware that there's an intolerant and violent past associated with certain ideas and types of behavior, and so they're intolerant and violently aggressive toward those ideas and behaviors.
It's a misplaced sense of justice first and foremost, and only then does it manifest in a misplaced sense of entitlement.
The missing piece is that the response to intolerance and violence cannot be intolerance and aggression. That's not the purpose of a "safe space"; the purpose of a safe space is to be able to express your ideas and grievances and explore questions of identity, ethics, and social policy without fear of a witch hunt. If you don't understand the distinction between "trying to repair unhealthy social structures and dynamics" and "disparaging those who make you feel uncomfortable," of course you're going to react this way. That's not a result of being coddled per se, but a result of failing to properly assimilate the appropriate response to injustice.
BobbyRobby
Member
The college is failing these students. It is making them less prepared for real world than when they entered.
They in college to learn how to change the world outside to more resemble the university environment.
Any day now the whole world will be a safe space.
That's not remotely true. That belief only makes sense if you stay in white-dominant parts of the world. Once you leave Europe / the US - you better believe there are plenty of costumes that do that.
There are quite a few costumes that can denigrate the entire white race once you leave Europe / America. We're still more than a little bitter about the entire colonization thing.
Maninthemirror
Banned
yeah but safe space is not doing too well http://www.theatlantic.com/politics...ivists-are-weaponizing-the-safe-space/415080/
It seems like colleges are becoming more aware that as generally progressive institutions they aren't free from racial biases or discrimination, which is good.
This all, though, seems like the really bad side effect of that heightened awareness. It doesn't help their case that the Washington Post article provides no real example of misconduct by the university (really? complaining about the term "master"? And then following it up with a "whole world is watching"?)
Also, that list of demands right off the bat:
Sounds like the revolution killing the people who aren't enthusiastic enough about defending the revolution. It's absolutely twisted doublethink that purports to cherish principles they routinely flout.
Looks like those students are taking some cues from the worst elements of the police. "If we say they're attacking us even when they aren't, that means we're in the clear, right?"
This all, though, seems like the really bad side effect of that heightened awareness. It doesn't help their case that the Washington Post article provides no real example of misconduct by the university (really? complaining about the term "master"? And then following it up with a "whole world is watching"?)
Also, that list of demands right off the bat:
Sounds like the revolution killing the people who aren't enthusiastic enough about defending the revolution. It's absolutely twisted doublethink that purports to cherish principles they routinely flout.
Looks like those students are taking some cues from the worst elements of the police. "If we say they're attacking us even when they aren't, that means we're in the clear, right?"
Excellent article again by The Atlantic. They again highlight their September article Coddling of the American Mind which I also highly recommend reading.
God Dayumm
Banned
They have money and lawyers. If anything, employers are the ones who should be wary because these people are walking lawsuits waiting to happen
I think there is a perception that some people don't take the history of violence and intolerance seriously, and so they are being "attacked" for their lackadaisal approach to the issue. Sort of the "but I only wore blackface to be funny, I didn't mean to offend" people who then start the loop of aggression and insensitivity all over.
In this case there's a tension between what people perceive as their home and safe space (the residential halls, staff and programs, "go home and sit on the couch") and what they perceive as their education experience and overall administration (professors, classes, "places of learning").
Kid Kamikaze10
Member
Weponized safe space is about as valid as Bill Bratton's "weaponized marijuana".
And the line of thought ain't that far off.
This is the result of Colleges taking "the customer is always right" mentality with their student bodies. That needs to stop, quite frankly.
Most of these kids will be coming out of school saddled with student loan debt. I doubt many can afford lawyer fees. Though I'm sure if they want to pressure their employers they will use the the go-to weapon of choice nowadays for their ilk: Twitter mobs.
Most of these kids will be coming out of school saddled with student loan debt. I doubt many can afford lawyer fees. Though I'm sure if they want to pressure their employers they will use the the go-to weapon of choice nowadays for their ilk: Twitter mobs.
The problem is that students are increasingly customers.
Maninthemirror
Banned
I remember when Progressive groups rightfully bawked at "our way or the highway" approach from Pres Bush but its become too much part of college students of our approach to resolving this is right and any other way is bad.
The nature of the grievance is a big part of them. Both of them are doing kinda dumb things, but there's a huge difference between massive systemic racism at UofM and what we're seeing described at Yale. Bigger issue, bigger tolerance.
When colleges ask for skyrocketing fees, they are indeed gaining customers not students. It's easier to complain about getting your money's worth when the amount of money is ever more significant.
True. Which is why something needs to be done about the huge increases in college tuition. When you're paying THAT much to go to school, and you're going to leave school tens of thousands of dollars in debt, wanting to be treated as king/queen during your college years doesn't sound bad at all.
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