nelsonroyale
Member
Fair enough, seems a bit strange. I wasn't questioning your integrity by the way, just why DICE might have done that considering PS4 has a [very] slight advantage even with differences in resolution.
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Digital Foundry: Star Wars Battlefront Face Off
- Thread starter Javin98
- Start date
Fair enough, seems a bit strange. I wasn't questioning your integrity by the way, just why DICE might have done that considering PS4 has a [very] slight advantage even with differences in resolution.
IT IS QUITE LITERALLY ONLY MENTIONED IN THE CAPTION ALONGSIDE A PAIR OF SCREENSHOTS SHOWING THAT EXACT THING. What is wrong with you? The proof is RIGHT THERE. RIGHT THERE. IT WAS ONLY MENTIONED WITH PROOF.
DF also posted a story about the vegitation in GTAV first.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2014-gta-5-next-gen-grass-compared
"Oh", you say "but it was pointed out somewhere first"
Well, guess what? It takes time to post articles. It's not a message board where you can quickly type something up and post it.
Also, the Battlefront example? Guess what? That appears literally the second you start that map. The VERY FIRST SHOT when you load that map demonstrates missing foliage on PS4. You do not have to search for it like in GTAV. It is RIGHT THERE.
Hey, at least we have an accurate frame-rate counter...unlike NX Gamer.
Here it is. The ONLY place where this discrepancy is mentioned. I made big red circles for you.
Uh...they did?
It's the very first image in the face off article.
This DF bias thing is so funny because people from both sides will take every opportunity to "confirm bias" by reading too much into the line. Never once thinking "Maybe it wasn't their intention" or "Maybe they actually overlooked it" cause you know it takes a lot of time to check two to three different versions of the same game and find differences.
Funny how you missed this and claimed they never talked about it and used it to make accusation about their bias right?
shadowsdarknes
Member
You followed up with another defensive post.
Nice dude.
I'm becoming convinced that he is nothing more than a troll.
The modern Lazy8s, if you will.
digoutyoursoul
Member
Do you ever think about doing something other than performance analysis ? Maybe editorials on the industry or even reviews?
Who can say! All I know is that I really love doing this particular kind of thing and, man, does it keep me busy. I spent the last week working like a mad man to get this done. Battlefront is an insanely hard game to cover if you want to make comparisons.
Nice article and a great effort by DICE. I really appreciate that they optimized the game on a per-level basis, and it truly does look fantastic on all three platforms.
I bought for PS4 but may double-dip on X1 to play with friends there as well. Even at 720p, it stands as a revelation among current-gen games, and is really only held back by some additional shimmering on metal objects and far-away detail work.
I bought for PS4 but may double-dip on X1 to play with friends there as well. Even at 720p, it stands as a revelation among current-gen games, and is really only held back by some additional shimmering on metal objects and far-away detail work.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Turn down that overy sharp, sharpness level TVs like to have out of the box.
Edit: beaten like a dead eopi
To be fair, that is an isolated area in one of the training missions that noticeably drops frames. It's not representative of the PS4s performance as a whole.
That's kind of harsh, man. TheLastWord didn't even bring up NXGamer.
You're right, I actually love his stuff too. Still, NX took a jab at us yesterday so it's only fair to jab back. ;-)
Also, yeah, that end of the training is so weird. It drops more there than in any other area in the game. Not even the busiest MP matches are capable of creating slowdown like that. Almost seems like a bug.
Wowfunhappy
Member
These people are ridiculous and we need to stop condoning them.
I cut it because it was bloat.
I mentioned it on the last page but the LoD pop in is way worse in the training stuff too, particularly Beggar's Canyon versus the Tattooine Fighter Squadron map. They seem hastily thrown together.
Dictator93
Member
Yeah :/
This, along with Tessellation distance and factor would be awesome tweaks to allow to power users.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Agreed. I notice it far less in multi.
Saucycarpdog
Member
Ah I see. Sorry about that. I thought your post was directed at me and I became confused.
Told ya, man, thelastword only sees what he wants to see. You can have the evidence shoved right in front of his nose and he won't accept it if it doesn't fit his agenda.
Anyway, now that you brought up NXGamer, you reminded me of his video yesterday. Does Battlefront really have some form global illumination or at least color bleeding? He showed it in his video and I just wanted to confirm it.
Dictator93
Member
Told ya, man, thelastword only sees what he wants to see. You can have the evidence shoved right in front of his nose and he won't accept it if it doesn't fit his agenda.
Anyway, now that you brought up NXGamer, you reminded me of his video yesterday. Does Battlefront really have some form global illumination or at least color bleeding? He showed it in his video and I just wanted to confirm it.
Frostbite has been using Geomerics' enlighten maps since bf3.
Krappadizzle
Member
Dictator93
Member
Oh, cool, I wasn't aware of that. It looked really good in that video I watched. Color bleeding is definitely one of my favourite graphical effects in games, alongside POM.
It's pretty clear on the small tattoine map in the Dune Sea. The green tarps' color bleeds onto the stage. Pretty sure it's baked but still looks nice.Told ya, man, thelastword only sees what he wants to see. You can have the evidence shoved right in front of his nose and he won't accept it if it doesn't fit his agenda.
Anyway, now that you brought up NXGamer, you reminded me of his video yesterday. Does Battlefront really have some form global illumination or at least color bleeding? He showed it in his video and I just wanted to confirm it.
Ninja Sharingan
Banned
IT IS QUITE LITERALLY ONLY MENTIONED IN THE CAPTION ALONGSIDE A PAIR OF SCREENSHOTS SHOWING THAT EXACT THING. What is wrong with you? The proof is RIGHT THERE. RIGHT THERE. IT WAS ONLY MENTIONED WITH PROOF.
DF also posted a story about the vegitation in GTAV first.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2014-gta-5-next-gen-grass-compared
"Oh", you say "but it was pointed out somewhere first"
Well, guess what? It takes time to post articles. It's not a message board where you can quickly type something up and post it.
Also, the Battlefront example? Guess what? That appears literally the second you start that map. The VERY FIRST SHOT when you load that map demonstrates missing foliage on PS4. You do not have to search for it like in GTAV. It is RIGHT THERE.
Hey, at least we have an accurate frame-rate counter...unlike NX Gamer.
Here it is. The ONLY place where this discrepancy is mentioned. I made big red circles for you.
I really do feel sorry for you. Digital foundry is praised and then the next article is ripped to shreds depending on the viewers bias. Keep up the good work. The ps4 has a large resolution advantage and a framerate advantage. There's plenty of positives in that versions favour. It must be a tough job. Hats off to you. Ignore the people that aren't wise enough to spot something with proof.
I'm not sure. The link Dictator provided leads to some technique called quasi-realtime radiosity. Now, I don't know if that means if the color bleeding is in real time, but it does look really good regardless. Also, if I'm not mistaken, the green hue from foliage in Endor is also cast on the players. I don't know if it's real time or baked, perhaps someone who knows better can tell.
I take the version with controls that actually make sense for shooters.
Metalingus5150
Member
Yep, as Dictator noted, Frostbite uses Enlighten. I was so caught up in differences between the versions that I ran out of time to cover Frostbite in more detail. Would have doubled the length of the video. ;-)Told ya, man, thelastword only sees what he wants to see. You can have the evidence shoved right in front of his nose and he won't accept it if it doesn't fit his agenda.
Anyway, now that you brought up NXGamer, you reminded me of his video yesterday. Does Battlefront really have some form global illumination or at least color bleeding? He showed it in his video and I just wanted to confirm it.
SolarMystic
Member
I don't really get a choice in these multiplayer type games. My friends are on Xbox, so that is what I will buy the game for.
Perhaps you should make another article and video on that.
PeregrinSe7en
Member
It's realtime CPU driven solution that works by dividing geometry to clusters and creating storing light transport information to textures and then generating spherical harmonic lightmap for display.
It creates multibounce lighting with indirect shadows for static objects and lightprobes for dynamic objects.
Unity5 has it has default GI solution and has nice demo for it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARorKHRTI80
GDC2015 talk.
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1022395/
In past they haven't used it for moving dynamic lights, not sure if they do this time.
Thanks a lot for this, very informative. However, I can't help but wonder why it is a CPU driven solution. We all know the CPU's in the consoles are pretty weak, so I wonder if they will run into issues with this technique later in the gen when games get more demanding.
PS3 numbers are relatively impressive.
CPU is used to create the SH lightmaps which GPU uses to light the scene. (If I remember correctly, they also might have moved more of the lighting to GPU now.)
Enlighten seems to have quite fast CPU path as they have demoed dynamic GI on tablet.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wrt5aLHI8ME
Dynamic GI on cellphones?! That's impressive! So Enlighten looks pretty good in Battlefront and is actually quite light on CPU, I wonder why devs don't use it more in games.
Edit: Ah, you edited in tablet, but still impressive nonetheless.
thelastword
Banned
I'm mostly mobile so I really don't check the screens. I still believe it makes sense to point these things out in the video when comparisons are being made. For the record, I did ask the OP in the Fallout 4 thread if a comparison was made showing more detail on the XB1 version, he told me no, so I took his word for it, apparently he missed the screens you posted.....
Regardless, my main point was that DF has an eye of an eagle when it comes to pointing out the most isolated cases of detail in a XB1 vs PS4 comparison, pretty much every time the extra detail favors the XB1. NFS in a parkway (according to them), Fallout 4 in one rooftop scene, Endor in one scene near a tree stump. I'm not saying these should not be pointed out, not at all. I'm simply saying that there have been instances of much larger disparity (that's clearly not a bug or lack of optimization), like the extra foliage on GTA5 where we saw the switch and dance.
Apparently, they can always see the XB1 version of a game's advantage on first glance, but always seem to miss where PS4 has an asset advantage on first glance......even when it's not a bug, but just plain better or more glaring on account of a better GPU. They've even deemed superior AO as inferior in rivals claiming the XB1 version was superior. DF has been trending with these slants, as to when they turn on their eagle vison on. As I said, I have no problem with showing these differences, but don't only do so when there's clearly a bug on the PS4, show console difference at all times.
Also, they should stop trying to minimize resolution and framerate differences with the use of "pp effects diminish the 1080p - 900p divide" and declaring a supposedly 60fps shooter that dips to sub 30fps quite often on the worse performing platform as somewhere you can play with your friends. The slant on all of these things add up and it's not looking good.
No, I didn't say, everyone and their grandmothers noticed the better foliage, perhaps the eagle eyed vision was not turned on for this one. It is the first thing any comparison expert would notice.....
Yet, DF's GTA5 article was probably the first to be posted. An initial look, where some time was already spent with the title.dark10x said:
Even in the cities, any suburb the foliage difference was apparent. You did'nt have to search for it. I bet you if the XB1 version had better foliage it would become rather apparent and that initial assessment would have a different heading "XB1 shows a huge gulf in world detail".....click to read more.dark10x said:
Perhaps eagle-o-vision was just not engaged, but it happens I guess.
A piece of software does the frame counting not anyone on anyside as far as I know. If it is that DF uses a person as a frame counter, it would explain why they can never get their minimum framerate right, why they never picked up an unlocked framerate in Unity, why one area in FC4 "in a non like for like explosion comparison" is used as proof that XB1 performs better in that game, when the game falls into the teens on XB1 just traversing heavy foliage areas and performs much worse overall. When DF staff can't even admit or notice that there are many teen drops in games they deem smooth.dark10x said:
That feel of smoothness when when I play (perceptible smoothness) seems to override hard stats more often than not,............ it would seem.
Thanks for sharing, so no other area where this discrepancy is shown, it's only a bug, and you've shown it like you should. The call is for you to show and highlight even moreso the differences where tangible GPU differences exist in games as well, not only bugs that favor the xb1 console. Let's highlight them all at first glance.dark10x said:I don't know what you're on about on framecount
Here it is. The ONLY place where this discrepancy is mentioned. I made big red circles for you.
This is very strange writing too....Are you insinuating that the foliage was pared back on the PS4 to keep it running at 60fps, whilst the XB1 could handle the better foliage?DF said:
This is not great optimization work, if anything this is a lack of optimization on PS4 like I suspected, but here you are going on about how this is such great work....
Also you mentioned that the adapative tesselation is not jarring, it is, because it's tied to lod switching, take a step back then forward near any surface and it's twitching detail like crazy. Also, this game does not have better performance than any next gen cod minus the latest hoax of a cod game. Since this is MP only we will compare it to Ghosts and AW mp on PS4/XB1, they're both more stable. Battlefront falls into the 40's, that never happened in those titles.
Yes, but for the purpose of comparisons, you can't say the 750ti can't keep up with the PS4 when it clearly is and even outperforming it on some maps. The 750ti fell into the mid 50's, so does the PS4 in that same map, then the PS4 struggles in the later map whilst the 750ti holds closer to 60fps. How do you look at this video and say the 750 ti can't keep up when the thing is holding 60fps just like the PS4 when he says it. Also bare in mind that they were at 85% scale and then they went up to 90% with some presets better on the 750ti as well, so higher resolution and better presets.
It should also be noted that the 750ti does not scale presets, it's permanently set, there are no lows and below lows. To say it can't keep up is not truthful in the slightest form.
dragonfart28
Banned
750ti holds up just fine.
It does drop to 55 on occasion but if that really bothers you then you're likely to invest in better hardware anyway.
I know these are supposed to strictly about performance but when it comes to value, you could make arguments on either side if the results are this comparable.
I personally prefer the low end PC route as you can easily make adjustments to hold 60fps and actually get better IQ by dropping shadows to low and putting textures, texture filtering, lighting and ambient occlusion on Ultra with AF at 16x.
It does drop to 55 on occasion but if that really bothers you then you're likely to invest in better hardware anyway.
I know these are supposed to strictly about performance but when it comes to value, you could make arguments on either side if the results are this comparable.
I personally prefer the low end PC route as you can easily make adjustments to hold 60fps and actually get better IQ by dropping shadows to low and putting textures, texture filtering, lighting and ambient occlusion on Ultra with AF at 16x.
Black Ops 3 almost never dips below 30fps. It's very, very rare for that to happen in my experience even during the campaign.
Vsynced and 30fps games with tearing are completely automated. 60fps games with tearing may require some frame counting by hand as some tearing detection can't be completely automated. Dark is refering to NXGamer's Blops 3 frame rate test ignoring tearing in the frame time calculations.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
You always have a choice. Be a leader then, and others will flock to you. This goes for all facets in life, not just silly console choices. Why be held down from other things you want to experience because of other people? You are an individual too, with your own thoughts and desires.
I dont think i would call him that.
Well that's a problem from your side now isn't it?
How do you expect people to associate any sort of credibility to you when you don't even go through the entire article to see whether the claims you are making are true or not? I think it's enough that the proof of the difference is shown directly underneath the very place where it was claimed. It's not DF's fault that you missed it, if every single thing was to be covered in the video then the article itself would be futile.
From "Extra detail" you mean one or two advantage that gets two to three lines in an article against the fact that the PS4 version ends up superior in every other way? Don't you see what you are doing here? It's the very definition of selective argument. You will use the one or two times when the XB1 does favorably in an article as evidence that they always mention the XB1 version having an advantage, but at the same time ignore the fact that in the very same article it's also mentioned that the PS4 version has superior framerate, resolution or such.
I mean look at what you just did, you were so bent on trying to prove your argument that you would blindly take some other person's word on this forum without really knowing if what that person said was correct or not. That person is more credible to you against an article posted with proof. Why? simply because it fit your argument !
You are trying to find things that don't exist.
If you want to see a different perspective on DF bias compared to yours, look no further than mrxmedia forums. According to them, DF is now completely pro Sony who bashes Xbox One every possible time. Apparently, it's all a matter of what you want to see in these articles, a.k.a selective perception.
I think the problem might be that DF included only a single instance of the foliage difference when their argument is that PS4 has unique foliage settings on a particular map for performance reasons.
If it's just the one instance I might err on the side of a bug or omission, but DF clearly believes this is performance related with little supplementary evidence. So to some this may seem like reaching or over interpretation.
Wow. Makes me wish they provided the option to go 1080p/30 for non split screen.
Why compromise?