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Rumor: Zelda coming to both Wii U + NX, choose between male/female link, VA for NPCs
- Thread starter Nibel
- Start date
Then why does it matter?
DXLelouch153
Banned
hes just mad his favorite character is dead forever
WhiteRabbitEXE
Member
Nintendo absolutely expected big numbers from Other M. At least, much bigger than they got. Reggie flat-out said it was selling half as quickly as they expected it would (they were anticipating a million by the end of 2010 and only got 500,000) and its reveal was used as their big "one more thing!" at E3 2009 - it was supposed to their marquee "hardcore"-oriented title for 2010.
Nintendo felt a stronger marketing push, a more attractive package for Japanese audiences, more cinematic/story elements, action elements, and a fairly big 3rd party collaboration were going to be a big deal for the franchise.
Malcolm9
Member
Because it's pointless doing it if that's the case.
Link is not an Avatar to me, he's an established male character who lots of people have adored and enjoyed playing as over the years.
I don't mind a female Link if she's done correctly, not shoehorned in as a straight gender swap, or adding it to satisfy a small minority asking for it just for equality reasons (some have even gone further than this reason in regards to sexuality).
I'd still prefer a fresh female character that you could use alongside Link, or in parts of the game.
But he will be able to emote just as much as he always has. If a Wind Waker amount of characterisation is enough for you, then that is what you'll get. Probably the only that could be limited from this is potential romance (it doesn't need to be limited of course, but you know why).
The difference is that now this character can possibly be more relatable to half the planet. It's the equivalent to change Link's name to your own.
Inquisitive_Ghost
Member
I've started a reply to this thread like four times before deciding it wasn't worth it and hitting the back button. I'm going to use this post to springboard onto a larger point.
Because it's not just games.
From the day they're born, women grow up in this world expected to at least partially be able to relate to the male viewpoint. And I don't mean stereotypes about men, or anything surface level like that. I'm talking about cognitive empathy. The ability to imagine yourself in the other person's shoes and extrapolate to gain some vague understanding of their experiences. Not that men can't do this re: women. Of course they can. But our culture trains women to do this in a way that it doesn't do to men, via media. An outlandish majority of protagonists are male, across all forms of media. The characters that you are supposed to understand, to relate to, to experience the story as they do. Almost all men. It varies a bit by your favourite format, but it's pretty universal. Popular movies? Video games? All tell almost exclusively male stories. Novels and TV might fare a little better for female protagonists, but I've never seen stats on those.
And the thing is, a lot of these stories aren't actually masculine. They're just framed as masculine. Huge numbers of these stories don't actually focus on the protagonist's masculinity, or if they do, they do it in only a tertiary way, not as an actual theme. But they're framed as masculine. Over and over again. So if women want to have any interaction with popular media at all, they develop a certain degree of cognitive empathy that crosses the gender spectrum right from a young age. It's not some innate skill. It's that learning it is inescapable.
Our culture expects nothing like this from men. A man can go his whole life and have no problem whatsoever finding a million popular and highly-acclaimed stories with exclusively male protagonists. He's never required to develop that skill. Now, tons of men do develop that skill. I expect the majority probably do eventually, but I have no numbers, and it would be hard to measure. But not all of them do. And I would say the ability to relate to half the planet's identity/position in life is pretty damn important.
I have seen one female poster ever --ever!-- on the Internet say they can't relate to a male protagonist. I'm sure there are more out there somewhere, but they don't exist in huge numbers. But if you go into any discussion about female protagonists you'll see male posters say they can't possibly relate to a female player character. They don't have any actual reason for it; they just insist that they can't. And you'll see it all the time. Because they're not ever required to learn how.
So when you take a monumental industry like video games and give it the same problem all other media seems to have, where women protagonists are rare to almost nonexistent, where even gender-neutral or almost gender-neutral stories that should be easy for both men and women to relate to, regardless of protagonist, are continuously framed as masculine, you reinforce the culture's massive empathy problem towards women in general. And you get a tiny glimpse of one of many contributors to why sexism is still a problem in 2016: because acknowledgment of neutral experiences (speaking more broadly than only in video games) as neutral (i.e. applying to both men and women) is sparse or absent.
So no, it's not "just damn games." And it wouldn't be a "dull skin change." It would be an acknowledgment that predominantly gender-neutral stories about a hero saving the world from a great evil are actually gender neutral.
And why I vehemently disagree with everyone saying a hypothetical female option should only be included if the path is different. Or she's written significantly differently. Or if she's written as a more strongly realized character than Link traditionally is. Or that a simple switch is "lazy" or "pointless."
And that's also why I disagree with the idea of prioritizing Zelda as a female option over a hypothetical gender switch, though that's also a good option, and I can respect it.
I'll honestly be surprised if Nintendo ever goes through with something like this, and I'll buy every game in the series regardless of whether it happens or not. I fell in love with video games largely through Zelda, existing as it does as a male protagonist-exclusive series, and I won't love it any less should it continue to exist in that form forevermore. It'll just be another neutral/nearly neutral experience framing itself as a masculine one. In the status quo pile with thousands of others.
Many of which I happen to enjoy, in spite of the emergent problem they collectively present.
Because it's not just games.
From the day they're born, women grow up in this world expected to at least partially be able to relate to the male viewpoint. And I don't mean stereotypes about men, or anything surface level like that. I'm talking about cognitive empathy. The ability to imagine yourself in the other person's shoes and extrapolate to gain some vague understanding of their experiences. Not that men can't do this re: women. Of course they can. But our culture trains women to do this in a way that it doesn't do to men, via media. An outlandish majority of protagonists are male, across all forms of media. The characters that you are supposed to understand, to relate to, to experience the story as they do. Almost all men. It varies a bit by your favourite format, but it's pretty universal. Popular movies? Video games? All tell almost exclusively male stories. Novels and TV might fare a little better for female protagonists, but I've never seen stats on those.
And the thing is, a lot of these stories aren't actually masculine. They're just framed as masculine. Huge numbers of these stories don't actually focus on the protagonist's masculinity, or if they do, they do it in only a tertiary way, not as an actual theme. But they're framed as masculine. Over and over again. So if women want to have any interaction with popular media at all, they develop a certain degree of cognitive empathy that crosses the gender spectrum right from a young age. It's not some innate skill. It's that learning it is inescapable.
Our culture expects nothing like this from men. A man can go his whole life and have no problem whatsoever finding a million popular and highly-acclaimed stories with exclusively male protagonists. He's never required to develop that skill. Now, tons of men do develop that skill. I expect the majority probably do eventually, but I have no numbers, and it would be hard to measure. But not all of them do. And I would say the ability to relate to half the planet's identity/position in life is pretty damn important.
I have seen one female poster ever --ever!-- on the Internet say they can't relate to a male protagonist. I'm sure there are more out there somewhere, but they don't exist in huge numbers. But if you go into any discussion about female protagonists you'll see male posters say they can't possibly relate to a female player character. They don't have any actual reason for it; they just insist that they can't. And you'll see it all the time. Because they're not ever required to learn how.
So when you take a monumental industry like video games and give it the same problem all other media seems to have, where women protagonists are rare to almost nonexistent, where even gender-neutral or almost gender-neutral stories that should be easy for both men and women to relate to, regardless of protagonist, are continuously framed as masculine, you reinforce the culture's massive empathy problem towards women in general. And you get a tiny glimpse of one of many contributors to why sexism is still a problem in 2016: because acknowledgment of neutral experiences (speaking more broadly than only in video games) as neutral (i.e. applying to both men and women) is sparse or absent.
So no, it's not "just damn games." And it wouldn't be a "dull skin change." It would be an acknowledgment that predominantly gender-neutral stories about a hero saving the world from a great evil are actually gender neutral.
And why I vehemently disagree with everyone saying a hypothetical female option should only be included if the path is different. Or she's written significantly differently. Or if she's written as a more strongly realized character than Link traditionally is. Or that a simple switch is "lazy" or "pointless."
And that's also why I disagree with the idea of prioritizing Zelda as a female option over a hypothetical gender switch, though that's also a good option, and I can respect it.
I'll honestly be surprised if Nintendo ever goes through with something like this, and I'll buy every game in the series regardless of whether it happens or not. I fell in love with video games largely through Zelda, existing as it does as a male protagonist-exclusive series, and I won't love it any less should it continue to exist in that form forevermore. It'll just be another neutral/nearly neutral experience framing itself as a masculine one. In the status quo pile with thousands of others.
Many of which I happen to enjoy, in spite of the emergent problem they collectively present.
That Brown Guy
Member
So have we established yet why having a gender option effects anyone who doesn't want said option? I still can't fathom how someone being able to pick a female Link will have an affect on someone who only wants a male Link.
Like it doesn't bother anyone that I have the option to name Link "Zelda" or whatever in my game does it?
Like it doesn't bother anyone that I have the option to name Link "Zelda" or whatever in my game does it?
Malcolm9
Member
Whatever name you give him doesn't matter though, he's still male.
And having a gender option will affect the game as Nintendo will have to adapt the narrative to cater for the gender you choose, especially when the last few games have fleshed out his character more.
That Brown Guy
Member
Adapting the narrative? Surely it can't be that hard to do such a thing based on whatever gender Link is.
Pokemaniac
Member
Of course there's reasons. Basically any design choice you make has tradeoffs. Customization imposes limitations on the story.
BarringGaffner
Member
Hate to break it to you, but Link has never been the same character. Were you upset when Link didn't grow up in Kokiri forest in Wind Waker?
If any series could have gender options and have it make complete sense it's this one. Link can be reborn as male or female and it totally works. All that matters is that they are a hero reborn.
Malcolm9
Member
Why would I be upset?
It makes no sense to give this game a gender option when Link has always been male and is recognised that way by fans of the series and even people who aren't fans.
A gender option in Zelda is basically a shoehorn to cater for a small minority who want him to be female for mostly selfish reasons. Either creating a new worthwhile female character or making Link a female only are much better options over choosing Links gender.
When I've seen some posters put "I'd love to see the salt flow if Nintendo did this" I immediately ignore any of their reasons, as it's clear some want this due to an agenda, rather than benefiting a 30 year old game series.
If Link is female in the next game that wouldn't bother me, a gender option would as I feel it takes away more than it brings in this style of game. It works in Mass Effect due to the game being designed around this choice and being very story driven at the same time, Zelda games are not like that and are more simplistic, which is a good thing sometimes.
Nexus Zero
Member
Link has literally one characteristic, courage. Which, I hear, is non-gender specific. Every other characteristic you think you know about the character is something you've projected upon him.
Zack Zavage
Member
Got a few questions.
I thought Linkle and female Link would be one and the same. Why are there two separate options to choose from?
Is there any chance that this Poll could affect the dev's/designer's decision on this matter?
I thought Linkle and female Link would be one and the same. Why are there two separate options to choose from?
Is there any chance that this Poll could affect the dev's/designer's decision on this matter?
The Dutch Slayer
Member
hahahhahahaha well done I laughed
I agree 100%. People saying "it's never the same Link in the games anyway" or "Link doesn't have any characteristics besides courage, so this is fine" obviously haven't played the same Zelda games as I have. The timeline being complicated doesn't make Link some faceless pawn that's incidentally been around for 30 years.
Nexus Zero
Member
He's an icon, that's it. If he has other characteristics then Nintendo have done a pretty shitty job with him, because their continual stated intention for the character is to be a blank state that anyone can see themselves in. Otherwise he'd have talked from the very beginning.
Malcolm9
Member
I don't play as Link to project myself onto him, I play as him and that's it. Whatever he does in the game as a character is designed by Nintendo, which I happen to enjoy as I play it, as I have done with all the Zelda games.
Link has emotion and feelings portrayed by his actions and facial expressions, which are his and not mine.
hemo memo
Gold Member
I agree about the bolded but we still don't know how Nintendo's gonna do it. I don't think they'll chose the cheap way and change he to she and keep it the same. We'll see.
I want RE4 Ada Separate Ways style.. Sorry it's the only example but I'm sure there are plenty of similar games and doing gender option more interesting than just a swap.
Link_enfant
Member
Personally, I'm perfectly fine with those decisions if they're ever confirmed.
69 pages, amazing.
I can get that people don't want Link to become a girl. In essence, LoZ is a fairytale archetype of courageous boy defeating monster to rescue princess. It's a series steeped in melancholy (e.g. when hyrule was still peaceful), so anything taking away from a nostalgic archetype might impact the feeling. But it's a choice. Don't want it, don't do it. Seems like all reasons for discussion evaporate right there.
I'm just interpreting it as people are really thirsty for the new open world Zelda. Given what a dud Skyward Sword was, this seems like a good thing.
I can get that people don't want Link to become a girl. In essence, LoZ is a fairytale archetype of courageous boy defeating monster to rescue princess. It's a series steeped in melancholy (e.g. when hyrule was still peaceful), so anything taking away from a nostalgic archetype might impact the feeling. But it's a choice. Don't want it, don't do it. Seems like all reasons for discussion evaporate right there.
I'm just interpreting it as people are really thirsty for the new open world Zelda. Given what a dud Skyward Sword was, this seems like a good thing.
OoT, MM, WW and TP would have barely any differences if Link was a female. Like I said, if they are enough then it won't change anything.
It really was, unfortunately. Sold about the same as Wind Waker which is in no way good.
Malcolm9
Member
I loved it and so did many others, sales don't always reflect the quality.
Maybe Nintendo will remaster it for the NX hopefully.
Please. In TP a female Link would have literally been rock blocked by the Gorons. For starters as a sexist race there's no way they'd have let her into their sacred (that's the word they use) mines and that's not even taking into account the sumo match that requires you to enter the dohyō (ring) which is a man only zone.
Wind Waker would have been a non-starter because Link would have been kidnapped at the start since Ganondorf was hunting for pointed eared females.
We already established that in MM, because of the Gorons, Link's name (or whatever you choose it to be) is considered a masculine name, so the Stockpot Inn would be highly suspicious if a female Link tried to check in under a masculine name.
And OoT only works because Link is an attractive man and all the female NPCs are willing to help him.
You can't argue with the facts.
snoopeasystreet
Member
There's some awfully depressing posts in this thread
I thought it was meh and it almost killed my interest in my erstwhile favorite series for good and so did many others, sales sometimes reflect the quality.
Malcolm9
Member
Yeah because I feel so less included when I play as Samus Aran even though I'm a guy.......
Skyward Sword was a late Wii release that required a peripheral and that's ignoring it received great reviews at the time. I really don't feel like you could argue its sales have anything to do with its quality even if you do dislike the game
DICKS AHOY
Banned
Female Link would be great because while I know others don't, I feel Link more so than other mainstay Nintendo characters is a regularly reincarnating, changing design where there's more than enough flexibility with how they change up the character from game to game to justify having a femalte alternative to go with the name you can choose. While having backstories and some degree of relationships in the 3D games have given him more character, I still don't think Link personally has any more character than say, Robin or Corrin, who despite being out and out avatars for the player have even more specific personalities and narratives than any particular Link has had.
Zelda, Impa or any number of the great Zelda girls would also be great as they have a ton of pre-established history in the series, could open up alternate combat/gameplay mechanics that regular Link may not be able to (Hyrule Warriors shows there's a TON that can be done here) and doesn't mess with the 'iconic' nature of regular Link that some fans see as being too untouchable. I don't necessarily agree with the last point (so far we don't even know if Link's going to have a green tunic in this game), but it's clearly a big enough deal for some people and this alternative side-steps that sour point a bit.
I don't get why I wish this didn't have to be such a controversial debate because from my perspective I'd be very happy with either alternative and having to see the inevitable fallout with whichever path Zelda U/NX possibly goes down will be a major buzzkill. Yes, even Linkle.
Zelda, Impa or any number of the great Zelda girls would also be great as they have a ton of pre-established history in the series, could open up alternate combat/gameplay mechanics that regular Link may not be able to (Hyrule Warriors shows there's a TON that can be done here) and doesn't mess with the 'iconic' nature of regular Link that some fans see as being too untouchable. I don't necessarily agree with the last point (so far we don't even know if Link's going to have a green tunic in this game), but it's clearly a big enough deal for some people and this alternative side-steps that sour point a bit.
I didn't realize Linkle didn't go down well with some people before this thread. Honestly kinda bummed about her, I'm loving her in Legends!
If Link's willing to totally cheat during that section with the iron boots in the actual game then a hypothetical Link with tits would probably also be willing to secretly strap 'em down and call themselves Balls McManboy around the gorons.
I wasn't talking about you, I was talking about the people who would love to be able to play as a female Link.
Malcolm9
Member
It's a shame some people have to play as their own gender to feel included, I guess I'm lucky not to feel that way and can get on with what the game offers.
Malcolm9
Member
Still misses some points of the debate though.
Ah well, I think I've said my piece so I'll leave it there.
The point that a blank slate video game character now has a gender choice because a lot of fans would like to play as a girl link?
Link is probably my favorite VG character because he's a blank slate. I don't see the issue with the he being a she because at the end of the day Link is supposed to be the player's avatar to the game's world, some of those gamers are girls and should have the choice to play as a girl.
Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean "I don't get it". All it means is that I'm fine with the change, while your problems with it are essentially "I want to play as a boy" and you still can.
KratosEnergyDrink
Member
Interesting read.
Eventually there should be a gender option for Link. Despite Skyward Sword no Zelda-Story would be affected by a gender change for Link. So if Zelda U/NX doesn't have a light romance like Skyward Sword there is no reason not to include the option for a female Link. And if Nintendo would be really progressive story-wise even a light romance would not be an obstacle for a female Link or they can just change the story a bit. Even in Skyward Sword the romance could be easily changed to a deep friendship without changing the tone.
I really enjoy posts that rely on "a 30 years old tradition" that Link is masculine. If someone loathes changes because of a "tradition" It's a clear indication that something must be changed.
>The less there is to justify a traditional custom, the harder it is to get rid of it.<
Mark Twain
Linkle in Warriors is an inverse Link, outgoing, self-chosen hero who can't read a map.
Zelda U is nearing completion, there won't be any design changes.
balgajo
Member
I don't agree with these posts about tradition given that the concept of franchise is solely based on this.
Malcolm9
Member
Going by your last sentence you have completely missed the point.
Also Link isn't a blank slate to some, but again that's all down to the player.
How would Link being a girl (and note, this is an entirely new Link, not one of the dozens of existing Links) affect your ability to relate to them?
Very curious.
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