blastprocessor
The Amiga Brotherhood
I hope this is not a Q1 2017 release because if it's so then Sony have got a potential issue they miss customers that hang out for Scorpio.
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Digital Foundry - Several sources indicate Neo will launch this year
- Thread starter DieH@rd
- Start date
The only real difference will be four more GDDR5 chips and larger APU [and accompanying small increase in cooling/PSU cost].
$399 for Neo and $499 for Scorpio is still the safest bet. Heck, by the end of 2017 I would not be surpirsed if ironed out 14nm process and GDDR5 prices enable Scorpio to also be $399.
StrongBlackVine
Banned
Yeah this is false. What exactly will a $399 PS4 Neo keep existing PS4 owners from doing? This is not a replacement for the OG PS4. I expect the Neo get may 15 to 20 percent of the sales at most, probably lower. And Sony doesn't care which one you buy as long as you stay in the PlayStation ecosystem.
I honestly think that based off the reactions to the leaks and the people that are willing to buy a device like this there may be a pivot away from a 4k emphasis and moving to 60fps. It makes perfect sense for the people they're aiming for and would require less work from devs than creating all new assets and effects for purely higher resolution/effects. Even at 4.2tf, there's plenty of room for visual refinements and 60fps. It would also make sure that the standard PS4 still gets attractive and playable 30fps titles.
Seeing Sound
Member
Hope it comes out this year. My Ps4 is getting those CE-34878-0 in some games and I don't want to spend the time to change the hard drive.
walltowall
Member
Thanks. I guess EVERYTHING is rumor at this point. It just seemed to be a really big jump from the development docs that Giant Bomb and Eurogamer had.
MisterXDTV
Member
How so?
Who are the PS4 customers that are obsessed with performance and graphics?
The early adopters, basically NeoGaf....
At this point reading the last few pages of the thread everyone is assuming whatever they want
and the fact that personal expectations and rumors are being passed as facts is pretty misleading for the discussion.We'll find out about the Neo in a few months anyway.
Personally I don't see it being priced at more than 399$ with current PS4 being cut to 299$.
I expect specs to be pretty similar to what has been leaked.
They are using a Polaris GPU and they might be able to clock it up to get close to 5 Teraflops and we don't know if the CPU cores are improved compared to standard Jaguar cores.
I don't believe in the fact they were still choosing between two completely different models and the fact that a simple CPU upgrade makes up for a 100$ difference.
But we'll see
It really doesn't matter what they put in the box, they're not stopping anyone from moving to PC with specs alone.
geordiemp
Member
How so?
Who are the PS4 customers that are obsessed with performance and graphics?
The early adopters, basically NeoGaf....
Exactly, go read the thread on Gaf called "what upgrade would you want for UC4 in Neo mode"
Let me guess, 95 % of posters wanted 60 FPS. Hell some asked for 120 FPS, but that was just joking...
Go start a new thread, ask again.... What you will often rarely here is some wants 4K30 please, or 1080p30 with better shadows. Thats for sure !
True, I said encourage or tempt them to stay. That's all marketing can ever do, nobody is forced to do anything.
Herp Derpington
Member
Yeah but both sides have exclusive content so it's not just the PS4 that gets a mark on that. As for VR games I don't count games that require an external device costing hundreds of dollars. If that's the case what about all the Kinect games the Xbox has (lol)? Sorry, had to.
Anyway I can agree about power not being enough but I think the market (at least here in the US) is more fickle than you want to believe. Should MS come out with guns ablazing with a strong message and good demos showing just what the system can do, it'll sell. It all depends on their message.
BleedOrange
Banned
If they launch with the specs that are currently in the dev kits I fully expect them to change the narrative from 4K to 1080/60. It gives them the best possible narrative vs the Scorpio which seems to actually have the necessary grunt to produce 4K at an acceptable fidelity and framerate.
StrongBlackVine
Banned
I would happy if Neo could push just about every game to run at 1080p/60fps with moderately improved visual quality. Don't care about 4K at all right now, especially considering it would likely be up-scaled 4K with poor framerates. I'm not really too concerned with the TF number. I just don't believe an overclocked Jaguar is going to push games to 60fps.
StrongBlackVine
Banned
How so?
Who are the PS4 customers that are obsessed with performance and graphics?
The early adopters, basically NeoGaf....
The people that are obsessed with performance and graphics don't want this thing to have another fucking Jaguar in it!
Sony could even get their X1 scaling algorithm in there for just talking about 4k output. That's been highly praised for how it handles 1080p content. 60fps will be also be a lot more marketable to people who don't have 4k displays and they can emphasize HDR for those that do.
Aceofspades
Banned
Holy smokes, now we have a group of people who try to sell the idea that Neo is too weak? While Scorpio will be running games at 4k/60fps?
Difference will be mostly 4.2TF vs 6TF with adjusted speeds of Ram. So ~35% in GPU power in favor of Scorpio.
So if we say that Neo is too weak, then so is Scorpio. Also what if Scorpio ended up using Jaguar for compatibility sake, would it still be this mighty powerhouse in your opinion?
I actually didn't think about that..the Zen that is supposed to be comarable to i7 is the desktop singular part.
Scorpio needs to use the low powered APU version which will diminish its potential power a lot...but i think it would still be a good upgrade for Scorpio over jaguar, but as you say, for running current gen games its not even really necessary
MisterXDTV
Member
True, but we still don't know if it actually does....
Anyway, regardless of the CPU, 499$ for a MID-gen upgrade is just too much
joecanada
Member
true but if you think about it people who love their console aren't really facing any better options with pc. I want to upgrade my GPU it will cost me about 300 or so. for that I could just about buy a Neo instead.
Now my pc would run faster for sure (i5 6500 ) but my old GPU is not worth much of anything so its not as though it will be a cheap upgrade. and having a pc doesn't make me want a ps4 less.
similarly its too bad you couldn't just plug in something for ps4 neo to upgrade for 100 bucks but it doesn't work that way so you are faced with about the same proposition. ps4 still go for 200 bucks used so its not too bad another 200 or so for a new system. I'm not a day one guy and wouldn't want to do this every other year but if you want to be an early adopter in tech, its an expensive hobby.
look at those crazy iphone people. Also I also used to be obsessed with car stereos ... same deal. basically if you worry about stuff like this don't be an early adopter. its a better market for you as there will be more used systems out there in general. just think by the time scorpio releases there will be tons of oneS out there....
You were comparing the Neo/Scorpio situation to the Xbox One/PS4 situation, where it wasn't CPU that proved to be the limiting factor at all. Microsoft had a CPU win in clock speed and in practice it wasn't a deciding factor, lack of memory bandwidth and GPU bottlenecks were a much bigger issue.
Jaguar isn't a computational powerhouse but then we don't actually know much about Zen in practice, either. Being able to issue more instructions per clock under optimal conditions isn't the same as running real world code with huge gains. We do know it's more power hungry and that's not weighing in its favor.
Your decision to leave out my commentary on the CPU when replying isn't the same as my having no comment on the matter. I don't think games this cycle will be designed to exploit significantly more CPU. Complex simulations for cloth, crowds, and so forth are being run on GPGPU and AI needs to be comparable on the base systems to avoid significantly altering the balance of a game's design. I doubt it's a big deal, so no I don't think we agree.
We'll see 60 and 90fps VR titles with simplified graphics on PS4. On Neo we'll take a step back toward the kind of rich detail we see in 30fps titles today, and while we won't reach visual parity it will be on shelves soon enough to entice customers without a competitor in the market. I know I won't be able to resist God of War or Horizon running on Neo, and I'll be very curious to see how PSVR titles evolve as well.
As an early adopter of the PS4, I was more interested in bang for buck, personally. Anyone that's truly obsessed with performance and graphics doesn't seem able to tolerate console hardware lifecycles, even if they are shortened a bit to 4 years.How so?
Who are the PS4 customers that are obsessed with performance and graphics?
The early adopters, basically NeoGaf....
NeoGAF in general are enthusiast gamers who will always buy new gaming paraphernalia because it's new, not much other prompting needed.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
I'm not sure it wise to praise Zen like it would be the second coming. At the end of the day it has to come in at an equivalent ~25W TDP to be used in the Neo and though I'm sure there would be some nice improvements over cat cores, the relative CPU-GPU ratio is likely to come out very similar to OG PS4. I would think similar will be true for Scorpio.
I take it no one expects full fat Zen that is a monster 8 core/16 thread chip because neither console is likely to get it. Laptop version at best.
I take it no one expects full fat Zen that is a monster 8 core/16 thread chip because neither console is likely to get it. Laptop version at best.
Collateral22
Member
If people think Scorpio is going to be putting out 4k games at stable framerate which decent settings regularly then they aren't going to be too happy.
Jean Valjean
Member
It still is a premium PS4. US$ 399 is a very adequate price for the rumored specs.
MisterXDTV
Member
Right, but in this case we are talking about a situation that never happened before with this mid-gen upgrade cycle....
You need to find the perfect balance with performance boost/price ratio.
Otherwise people will upgrade their PC for about the same price and keep the "old" PS4 for exclusives
But if Sony can find the right balance, Neo will be a hell of a deal
vpance
Member
I want 1440p60. I don't think that's too much to ask for.
dragonzdogma
Member
GS trades PS4 for 200$
I'm going to have to act quick on that trade, anyone know how good is GS at dropping ps4 trade in value whenever news gets announced, do they usually change it when rumors start happening, or is it more like they wait for official announcements?
I'm going to have to act quick on that trade, anyone know how good is GS at dropping ps4 trade in value whenever news gets announced, do they usually change it when rumors start happening, or is it more like they wait for official announcements?
StrongBlackVine
Banned
True, but we still don't know if it actually does....
Anyway, regardless of the CPU, 499$ for a MID-gen upgrade is just too much
Why is it too much? If you sell your OG PS4(for around $200) your probably looking at paying $299 for it and this only for people that are looking to upgrade. If you haven't jumped into this generation yet then you are probably very price sensitive and will go with now likely cheaper OG PS4 regardless.
It would helpful if we knew what kind of sales they are projecting for Neo. If the expectations are low like they are for PSVR then I don't think a higher price point matters that much.
StrongBlackVine
Banned
On that part yes, but it certainly does not address Sony's purported desire use Neo as a way to stall migration to PC. It just pushes me faster. I had planned to build a PC this Fall, but when the news about Neo starting leaking I thought maybe I would hold off for a while longer. If what we have seen for is actually the final product it has failed spectacularly at that goal.
If Sony wants to stay ahead for the rest of this gen, the also need to release PS4K this fall or year end. I can't see regular PS4 stay at 300+ for much longer or Xbone S will start gaining big time this holiday season. 399 PS4K and 299 PS4 is exactly what Sony need to stay winning. The rumor specs are close to the final product that shouldn't prevent them to hit that price point but I can see they pull a 1TB model or game bundle only for 449 to make decent profit off early adopters and release a 500g sku on a later date. Coming out at 399 also make MS second guess their 6TF machine is worth it because they have to make the assumption that when they launch the scorpio they could be facing a 350 PS4K by next fall. If they want the want the Scorpio to reach the mass market they have to price it competitively too, or it'll just become a niche prodcut.
MisterXDTV
Member
If the specs stay close to what we know, then for sure Scorpio will be more powerful than Neo.
Sony would kill Scorpio with a 399 $ price a year earlier. Just like they killed Xbox One in 2013.
Yeah also no one is spending 399+399 when you can sell your used console for $200. It's a small upgrade fee for double the power. Seems totally fair and easily attainable for those that care. This is aimed at people like me with $1,000 receivers and $4,000 TVs.
StrongBlackVine
Banned
Sony could delay this thing to Fall 2017 and Xbox would still behind by at least 30 million units by then. Losing this generation is not even a concern at this point.
I mentioned this in another comment. Why would people who want to upgrade not sell their PS4 and put those funds towards the Neo? This makes the price for people looking to upgrade less than new adopters.
depends on how you measure it, are those ppl who are migrating to PC all get a 960 or 980. If lots of them are still doing mid-low end pc migration the simple console setup can still keep them for another 3 years until PS5.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
Leaving the spec argument aside for a minute..... What features, if any, could Neo bring that could help sell it or at least make paper specs less of a "problem"?
MisterXDTV
Member
They are not delaying PS4 Neo a full year, that's for sure....
it is, what happen close to the end of the console life cycle is very important, people look at PS3 as succeful console last gen, imagine the PS3 has died like a 3DO or atari jaguar, thing would have been to disaster for PS4. The momemtum carry from last gen matters a lot.
Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
No matter the GPU without a CPU upgrade it's not worth it.
Zen will launch later this year, they need to fold that into the ecosystem.
Zen will launch later this year, they need to fold that into the ecosystem.
StrongBlackVine
Banned
I know that. Just saying nothing in the works for either company is going alter the way this generation is going.
Momentum looks pretty good for PS4 to me. They certainly seem to have the better game lineup going forward which is what helped the PS3 excel and build momentum later in the generation.
No, one of use realises GPU can be used to improve FPS and the other doesn't and is poo-pooing the Neo to be forever crippled with 30FPS and 'no better looking, maybe just extra AA' which is ridiculous.
looks pretty good, but nothing wrong if they can better. Still a lot to of work to do if they want to keep the 2:1 sales advantage the have now until the cycle end.
geordiemp
Member
Ps4 players mainly have 1080p30 now on most games compared to our PC overlords..What do you reckon would be THE most asked for upgrade. Go on, have a wild guess !
We have 3 Ps4 in the house, PSVR ordered, 2 PSN + subs and buy 40 games a year. I think the Jaguar is that shit that I will trade it all and go Scorpio. I am not gaming at 30 FPS for another 3-4 years, period.
If Scorpio has Jaguar I will go PC.. Jaguar CPU is just not capable of 60 FPS gaming for allot of games in my opinion no matter what else is in the box. I share this opinion with many posters.
Heck type "weak Jaguar CPU" into google and you could be reading for the next 10 years. Type powerful Jaguar CPU into google and well, whatever.
Shpeshal Nick
aka Collingwood
Big gamble to release Neo and PSVR during the same window in my opinion.
Surely the market for people who can afford both is tiny, which would force the purchase of one or the other no?
Surely the market for people who can afford both is tiny, which would force the purchase of one or the other no?
Nestunt
Member
Completely agree
They don't have to do that by any means. Only people saying its not worth it are looking at Scorpio and not the games currently being released
PSVR is going to be pretty supply constrained. it will sell out no matter what. it's a non-issue IMO
Whatever, your choice - enjoy Witcher 4 at 60FPS I'll enjoy real exclusives and stunning looking 1080p games, some of which will run at 60FPS like they do today.
I really would like to understand though how a slower CPU in the PS4 nearly always beats XBO in the frame-rate stakes - the 2 poor examples (AC Unity being the worse coded game ever) aside...pretty much all face-offs show a clear PS4 advantage yet it has the slower CPU.
geordiemp
Member
Not really, I just wont buy another console with a Jaguar CPU in it, its that crap.
The main thing that holds back a game like Fallout from higher render updates is antiquated software stack, not hardware.geordiemp said:
More importantly though - game simulation virtually never needs to be an actual framerate bottleneck, when it happens it's almost always just because it's "easier" that way. Which of course is a good argument for throwing more CPU resources at a problem (cheaper development or what not) but that only works if said CPU is your only hardware target.
gundamkyoukai
Member
I don't care if it has a Jaguar in it once the games have a jump i feel worth it .
If Sony wants to bring this out at $399 some thing got to give i rather it be the CPU .