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[00ich]

As I said earlier, each point is part of the equation why people buy a console.
But as the power argument seems to be more or less important depending on which company has the most powerful console: I remember talking about power when I was still a kid at school. At first it was about Master System and nes, then Genesis against snes, Saturn against psx and then slowly the internet happened, making the talk even broader. News sites report about power differences, YouTube channels do it and they reach more people every day with that.
Again, if this influences the decision in the end, we don't know. But let's not pretend that only a small group knows about the difference, nor that even less care.

Power difference only counts if it is easily quantifiable and or easily qualifiable. "PSX can do transparencies" works, "SNES can do more colors" works, "SNES has better music" works, "Ps4 can do proper HD unlike the Xbox" works. "X has higher quality ambient occlusion (/more particles/less shimmering)" doesn't, Especially if those differences aren't consistent. "Blast processing" was a very artificial but somehow successful attempt to make a CPU power difference visible. "It has 64bits, that's more " wasn't.

If it's the story Neo and Scorpio will be "Scorpio can do proper 4k unlike Neo" the better hardware may pay off.
If Neo had a 100+ library of 4K titles when Scorpio launches Microsoft will have a hard time explaining people why their 4k is better than Sony's. Especially if Scorpio is more expensive.

 

[mario_O]

I thought both were going to use AMD's new RX480. Sony's Neo definitely is, and that's a 5,x Tflops card. So I dont understand the title of the thread.

 

[CivRab]

I thought both were going to use AMD's new RX480. Sony's Neo definitely is, and that's a 5,x Tflops card. So I dont understand the title of the thread.

I thought the consensus was that it would be underclocked for heat in a small form factor build.

 

[SpokkX]

I upgraded my "console pc, alienware x51, to 6700k and a gtx1070

Basically this is a scorpio today power wise if i understand correctly?

Anyway it handles 1080p@60 with ultra settings in anything that exists today. And it uses only 50% gpu doing it!

Hope they go the 60fps route with these new consoles also, never dropping below is just so great

 

[MilkyJoe]

I thought the consensus was that it would be underclocked for heat in a small form factor build.

Yeah, there's no way this is going in a console sized box at 1.2

 

[00ich]

I upgraded my "console pc, alienware x51, to 6700k and a gtx1070

Basically this is a scorpio today power wise if i understand correctly?

Your GPU is a bit better, your CPU a lot.

 

[Gamezone]

I upgraded my "console pc, alienware x51, to 6700k and a gtx1070

Basically this is a scorpio today power wise if i understand correctly?

Anyway it handles 1080p@60 with ultra settings in anything that exists today. And it uses only 50% gpu doing it!

Hope they go the 60fps route with these new consoles also, never dropping below is just so great

The GTX 1070 costs three times as much as an launch Xbox One where I live.

 

[00ich]

I thought both were going to use AMD's new RX480. Sony's Neo definitely is, and that's a 5,x Tflops card. So I dont understand the title of the thread.

What CivRab says. Scorpio is supposed to have console equivalent of the next higher GPU in AMDs new portfolio, called Vega.

 

[SenjutsuSage]

I thought both were going to use AMD's new RX480. Sony's Neo definitely is, and that's a 5,x Tflops card. So I dont understand the title of the thread.

Scorpio most likely using the next gen AMD chip, Vega. It's more advanced and also represents a newer graphics ip generation for AMD chips, whereas RX480 is still the same graphics ip generation version as hawaii. By most, if not all, accounts it should be a superior card.

 

[GameSeeker]

Scorpio most likely using the next gen AMD chip, Vega. It's more advanced and also represents a newer graphics ip generation for AMD chips, whereas RX480 is still the same graphics ip generation version as hawaii. By most, if not all, accounts it should be a superior card.

You keep saying that, but that is factually incorrect.

If you look at AMD's published roadmap (first slide): http://videocardz.com/59206/amds-official-gpu-roadmap-for-2016-2018, you will see that Vega includes all the architecture features of Polaris and adds one key feature: HBM2 memory.

While Vega will certainly contain more CU's than the current Polaris 10, the key new feature is HBM2 support. The only way you can claim that Scorpio is using Vega, is if Scorpio is also using HBM2 memory, which is not the case. Therefore, Scorpio is not using Vega, but rather will use some variant of Polaris (different number of CU's, different clockrate, etc.).

 

[MilkyJoe]

You keep saying that, but that is factually incorrect.

If you look at AMD's published roadmap (first slide): http://videocardz.com/59206/amds-official-gpu-roadmap-for-2016-2018, you will see that Vega includes all the architecture features of Polaris and adds one key feature: HBM2 memory.

While Vega will certainly contain more CU's than the current Polaris 10, the key new feature is HBM2 support. The only way you can claim that Scorpio is using Vega, is if Scorpio is also using HBM2 memory, which is not the case. Therefore, Scorpio is not using Vega, but rather will use some variant of Polaris (different number of CU's, different clockrate, etc.).

Are we sure?

 

[GameSeeker]

Are we sure?

In the Microsoft announce video for Scorpio at E3, they showed us the motherboard. It most definitely wasn't using HBM2 memory.

 

[MilkyJoe]

In the Microsoft announce video for Scorpio at E3, they showed us the motherboard. It most definitely wasn't using HBM2 memory.

And you think that's the actual motherboard?

 

[Ottobit]

why are people still citing 8 month old Neo specs when Sony has yet to confirm them? yawn. dummy hype.

 

[ps3ud0]

Are we sure?

Well the memory bandwidth number is bang on GDDR5x with a 256bit bus or GDDR5 on a 384bit bus - which variation depends on the amount of RAM.

Im not sure what combination of HBM2 chips/stacks would allow such a (low) number. I guess 2/3 stacks of 4-Hi for around 400 GB/s.

ps3ud0 8)

 

[Lister]

I upgraded my "console pc, alienware x51, to 6700k and a gtx1070

Basically this is a scorpio today power wise if i understand correctly?

Anyway it handles 1080p@60 with ultra settings in anything that exists today. And it uses only 50% gpu doing it!

Hope they go the 60fps route with these new consoles also, never dropping below is just so great

Your 1070 will smoke the scorpio, assuming the rumored specs are anything to go by. Your CPU is significantly more pwoerful too.

 

[MilkyJoe]

Well the memory bandwidth number is bang on GDDR5x with a 256bit bus or GDDR5 on a 384bit bus - which variation depends on the amount of RAM.

Im not sure what combination of HBM2 chips/stacks would allow such a (low) number. I guess 2/3 stacks of 4-Hi for around 400 GB/s.

ps3ud0 8)

I would say it was more target specs than anything else, there's a fair old bit of time to go yet

 

[Obscuritas]

I still don't understand why MS is marketing this in tandem with X1. I think they should leave the X1 behind and just position Scorpio as their next real system. I would be way more excited for it.

Because they couldn't even if they wanted to (nor could Sony). Besides, Microsoft are not running anymore after the first spot in the hardware sales, their strategy is completely different now.

premium price likely => pure speculation

Premium = Pulled from ones mud chute.

Wrong

It's going to be a premium price over what we're selling this one for, and both of them will exist in the market at the same time.

 

[Hockeymac18]

A fraction of people. A small fraction. And some reasons you listed like "controller" are not even real issues so i question your analysis. Console sales are motivated by game availability, pricing and marketing power. Hardware performance is a thing but its way down the list.

You could get the idea power is very important if you read a lot of internet the last few years. But its really not or the xb1 would not have been able to sell as well as it has with a 40% deficit.

I think you place too much emphasis on exclusives. They matter for a lot of people, but it's a combination of price, power (i.e. How well they play the big multi platform games, such as FIFA, GTA, etc.), brand power, and exclusives. I think price is the biggest factor (probably by far), power is second, and exclusives/brand last. That isn't to say that exclusives/brand don't matter, just rather that they're less important for the majority of console gamers (especially non-hardcore).

A console's success is not based on one thing, it's based on the combination of the above factors. And the reason PS4 dominated was that it had the advantage in every single of the four factors.

 

[JayhawkerStL]

The whole "Why Xbox One Failed to Win" argument is so freaking boring and pointless at this point. Regardless of much different factored weighed into that failure, conditions are different now, and past results do not guarantee future performance.

It is completely possible to love everything about what Microsoft is doing with Scorpio and gaming going forward, and still not be convinced it will translate into success.

But until both Neo and Scorpio have much more real and meaningful information out, no one really knows what will happen.

 

[MilkyJoe]

Because they couldn't even if they wanted to (nor could Sony). Besides, Microsoft are not running anymore after the first spot in the hardware sales, their strategy is completely different now.


Wrong

It's going to be a premium price over what we're selling this one for, and both of them will exist in the market at the same time.

Right

When people are quibbling abou it's price, they are saying high or premium as in 500+

$350 is a premium over $299

 

[MilkyJoe]

A fraction of people. A small fraction. And some reasons you listed like "controller" are not even real issues so i question your analysis. Console sales are motivated by game availability, pricing and marketing power. Hardware performance is a thing but its way down the list.

You could get the idea power is very important if you read a lot of internet the last few years. But its really not or the xb1 would not have been able to sell as well as it has with a 40% deficit.

You are living in cloud cuckoo land if you think there is no such thing as controller preference.

why do you think these exist?

 

[CrazE]

I still don't understand why MS is marketing this in tandem with X1. I think they should leave the X1 behind and just position Scorpio as their next real system. I would be way more excited for it.

Maybe they're not trying to make you personally more excited. Because I'm pretty excited for it. So I think they're doing it for me!

 

[Crayon]

I think you place too much emphasis on exclusives. They matter for a lot of people, but it's a combination of price, power (i.e. How well they play the big multi platform games, such as FIFA, GTA, etc.), brand power, and exclusives. I think price is the biggest factor (probably by far), power is second, and exclusives/brand last. That isn't to say that exclusives/brand don't matter, just rather that they're less important for the majority of console gamers (especially non-hardcore).

A console's success is not based on one thing, it's based on the combination of the above factors. And the reason PS4 dominated was that it had the advantage in every single of the four factors.

I didn't say exclusives, I said "game availability". You could combine your two categories; big multiplatform games and exclusives with every other game available plus considerations for when the games release and it what condition and that would be my "game availability" category.

You are living in cloud cuckoo land if you think there is no such thing as controller preference.

why do you think these exist?

Uh... why do you think they exist?

You think they exist because sony controllers are so bad, don't you?

MilkyJoe. Would you mind telling the class how large an impact of controller preference has on console sales?

Can you provide a shred of evidence that your "controller preference" motivator is not working in sony's favor, helping them to decimate the xbox in sales? Or if it's working at all?

I am painfully, ears-ringing, aware that there is a faction on here who is extremely insecure and has to volunteer their personal controller preference constantly. Maybe that echo chamber has gotten to you and you are starting to believe it is real?

If the xbox 1 controller was a twisted, decrepit nightmare of 6th Reich Nazi torture engineering like the Dual Shock 4, how many less xbox 1's would have sold? Hmm?? Just and educated guess?

 

[Trace]

I didn't say exclusives, I said "game availability". You could your two categories; bug multiplatform games and exclusives with every other game available plus considerations for when the games release and it what condition and that would be my "game availability" category.



Uh... why do you think they exist?

You think they exist because sony controllers are so bad, don't you?

MilkyJoe. Would you mind telling the class how large an impact of controller preference has on console sales?

Can you provide a shred of evidence that your "controller preference" motivator is not working in sony's favor, helping them to decimate the xbox in sales? Or if it's working at all?

I am painfully, ears-ringing, aware that there is a faction on here who is extremely insecure and has to volunteer their personal controller preference constantly. Maybe that echo chamber has gotten to you and you are starting to believe it is real?

If the xbox 1 controller was a twisted, decrepit nightmare of 6th Reich Nazi torture engineering like the Dual Shock 4, how many less xbox 1's would have sold? Hmm?? Just and educated guess?

At least 7. But it would have gained 200 sales in Japan.

 

[MilkyJoe]

Uh... why do you think they exist?

You think they exist because sony controllers are so bad, don't you?

MilkyJoe. Would you mind telling the class how large an impact of controller preference has on console sales?

Can you provide a shred of evidence that your "controller preference" motivator is not working in sony's favor, helping them to decimate the xbox in sales? Or if it's working at all?

I am painfully, ears-ringing, aware that there is a faction on here who is extremely insecure and has to volunteer their personal controller preference constantly. Maybe that echo chamber has gotten to you and you are starting to believe it is real?

If the xbox 1 controller was a twisted, decrepit nightmare of 6th Reich Nazi torture engineering like the Dual Shock 4, how many less xbox 1's would have sold? Hmm?? Just and educated guess?

Because of the stick alignment. I don't need to read any further because i can see you are having a melt down over it. It's ok to like different things. No need to be upset.

 

[wachie]

Well the memory bandwidth number is bang on GDDR5x with a 256bit bus or GDDR5 on a 384bit bus - which variation depends on the amount of RAM.

Im not sure what combination of HBM2 chips/stacks would allow such a (low) number. I guess 2/3 stacks of 4-Hi for around 400 GB/s.

ps3ud0 8)

On top of that, there was around a 5% differential in performance between the 5.8TFlop RX480 4GB version and the 8GB version. The memory bandwidth for the two is 224GB/s and 256GB/s. I would think that a 6+ TFlop Vega wouldnt need much more than 320GB/s and the GDDR5X spec lines up perfectly with that.

And lastly not to forget the cost issue, HBM2 will be significantly more expensive as it involves adding an interposer. That's like an extra SoC yield factor of its own.

 

[Crayon]

Because of the stick alignment. I don't need to read any further because i can see you are having a melt down over it. It's ok to like different things. No need to be upset.

Oh yeah. Pardon my meltdown. Huehue. I have constant meltdowns as many here know.

Stick Alignment? Come on, Milky. Indulge us: How fucked would xbox be if Sony could finally get the stick alignment right? Would sony already be at 50 million now with the proper stick alignment?

 

[Hockeymac18]

I didn't say exclusives, I said "game availability". You could combine your two categories; big multiplatform games and exclusives with every other game available plus considerations for when the games release and it what condition and that would be my "game availability" category.

Then you're kind of saying the same thing that I am, even though I think there's more nuance to it (I think most average users don't really weigh exclusives as heavily as how well the system plays the big multiplatform games).

Although I think price, especially in the US, trumps "game availability".

 

[Crayon]

Then you're kind of saying the same thing that I am, even though I think there's more nuance to it (I think most average users don't really weigh exclusives as heavily as how well the system plays the big multiplatform games). Although I think price, especially in the US, trumps "game availability".

Yeah pretty much same thing. So... my model of a console sale is like... someone sees an ad or hears a word of mouth recommendation for a game and realizes that either they can't get it for their console or they can't get a "good version" for their current console. So they are motivated to go shopping. From what I've seen over the years, this is the first step to most console sales. Whether that game happens to be exclusive or not doesn't matter at that stage where the consumer becomes ready to suck it up and splash out for a new console.

So in 2013, I imagine many many people going to buy battlefield for their 360, and many of them hearing and understanding the buzz that the "next gen" on was the one that people were really excited about. And some of those users would be pushed into a console sale to get the "real battlefield" and keep up with what's abuzz. And that's how battlefield can be a system seller even tho it was cross-gen.

 

[greenegt]

The whole "Why Xbox One Failed to Win" argument is so freaking boring and pointless at this point. Regardless of much different factored weighed into that failure, conditions are different now, and past results do not guarantee future performance.

It is completely possible to love everything about what Microsoft is doing with Scorpio and gaming going forward, and still not be convinced it will translate into success.

But until both Neo and Scorpio have much more real and meaningful information out, no one really knows what will happen.

Very good and fair post. I think MS is taking the right approach with regards to Scorpio. It kind of brings them back to their console roots with a forward thinking and powerful console. The devs are excited about it (and Neo), which is a great start. If they can price it well, it should do well in the market.

The next important step for them is to get UWP and Windows store to good place. Right now, there is hesitancy about buying Windows store games. If MS fixes that, they'll be in a great position going forward.

 

[LukasTaves]

I still don't understand why MS is marketing this in tandem with X1. I think they should leave the X1 behind and just position Scorpio as their next real system. I would be way more excited for it.

Because if they don't they lose trust. Who is gonna trust them to not kill Scorpio too if it doesn't sell accordingly to expectations?

For better or worse they have to stick by their box.

 

[Crayon]

Because if they don't they lose trust. Who is gonna trust them to not kill Scorpio too if it doesn't sell accordingly to expectations?

For better or worse they have to stick by their box.

This. Even if they are planning to drop xbox one support, they'll want to wait till a safe juncture to do so.

 

[MilkyJoe]

Oh yeah. Pardon my meltdown. Huehue. I have constant meltdowns as many here know.

Stick Alignment? Come on, Milky. Indulge us: How fucked would xbox be if Sony could finally get the stick alignment right? Would sony already be at 50 million now with the proper stick alignment?

After the Xbox reveal I was hoping Sony dropped that stick position, as they were the only desirable option this gen. But when they finally showed the console it still had the DS alignment. I held out for 3rd party support and when the first came they didn't have a touch pad. So then I just bought an Xbox.

I just want a controller I'm comfortable with , brand loyalty is as daft as nationalism as far as I'm concerned.

I'm sure there are many people that would agree the input device is the trump factor in deciding what console to buy.

Now, I'm wondering what you get out of coming to the Scorpio thread telling other people what is and what isn't a valid reason for making a purchase and being dismissive based on the current position of your preferred console manufacturer.

There are many people and different strokes for different folks. Every single reason is a valid reason, if a purchase is based on that reason.

And as luck would have it my deciding factor falls on the side which is getting the best console and will have the best multiplats, which is handy as, believe it or not, I care not a jot about 1st party games, on either side.

Although I do like Forza Horizon 2, it's the first Forza game I ever played mind...

 

[gatti-man]

Because of the stick alignment. I don't need to read any further because i can see you are having a melt down over it. It's ok to like different things. No need to be upset.

I prefer Xbox controllers and game on ps4. Why? Better hardware, better OS. You can always buy a different controller. I can't upgrade xbones poor hardware and obtuse OS.

 

[MilkyJoe]

I prefer Xbox controllers and game on ps4. Why? Better hardware, better OS. You can always buy a different controller. I can't upgrade xbones poor hardware and obtuse OS.

But your man was saying that power is not a deciding factor also.. Ha ha

 

[Crayon]

After the Xbox reveal I was hoping Sony dropped that stick position, as they were the only desirable option this gen. But when they finally showed the console it still had the DS alignment. I held out for 3rd party support and when the first came they didn't have a touch pad. So then I just bought an Xbox.

I just want a controller I'm comfortable with , brand loyalty is as daft as nationalism as far as I'm concerned.

I'm sure there are many people that would agree the input device is the trump factor in deciding what console to buy.

I acknowledge your feelings and I'm sure there are dozens more like you but I would argue that the brand loyalty you call daft probably has more effect than stick alignment. Let alone a 100 dollar spread. Let alone a 300 game spread.

Now, I'm wondering what you get out of coming to the Scorpio thread telling other people what is and what isn't a valid reason for making a purchase and being dismissive based on the current position of your preferred console manufacturer.

There are many people and different strokes for different folks. Every single reason is a valid reason, if a purchase is based on that reason.

And as luck would have it my deciding factor falls on the side which is getting the best console and will have the best multiplats, which is handy as, believe it or not, I care not a jot about 1st party games, on either side.

Although I do like Forza Horizon 2, it's the first Forza game I ever played mind...

What I get from being on gaf is my business. Please wonder.

The argument I'm putting forth is that the motivators for console sales are the same as I have observed for decades: Games (not exclusives like it gets twisted on the internet. All games), pricing and marketing are the three primary factors. Things like controller preference and online service preference and ui preference exist and are fun to bat around but are effectively insignificant for the bulk of sales. Actual hardware power is somewhere in the middle and below perceived, demonstrable hardware power.

Game Library.
Price.
Marketing.

Stick alignment? Do you think it should be up there with the major reasons?

 

[MilkyJoe]

I acknowledge your feelings and I'm sure there are dozens more like you but I would argue that the brand loyalty you call daft probably has more effect than stick alignment. Let alone a 100 dollar spread. Let alone a 300 game spread.




What I get from being on gaf is my business. Please wonder.

The argument I'm putting forth is that the motivators for console sales are the same as I have observed for decades: Games (not exclusives like it gets twisted on the internet. All games), pricing and marketing are the three primary factors. Things like controller preference and online service preference and ui preference exist and are fun to bat around but are effectively insignificant for the bulk of sales. Actual hardware power is somewhere in the middle and below perceived, demonstrable hardware power.

Game Library.
Price.
Marketing.

Stick alignment? Do you think it should be up there with the major reasons?

Game library - pretty much irrelevant at the beginning of a generation
Price - I'm not going to question the folly of the original Xbox reveal, but it's currently the cheapest console.
Marketing - I think the xbone reveal will put this to bed for all going forward.

And again you dismiss a controller as a valid reason...

What don't you understand?

 

[gatti-man]

I acknowledge your feelings and I'm sure there are dozens more like you but I would argue that the brand loyalty you call daft probably has more effect than stick alignment. Let alone a 100 dollar spread. Let alone a 300 game spread.




What I get from being on gaf is my business. Please wonder.

The argument I'm putting forth is that the motivators for console sales are the same as I have observed for decades: Games (not exclusives like it gets twisted on the internet. All games), pricing and marketing are the three primary factors. Things like controller preference and online service preference and ui preference exist and are fun to bat around but are effectively insignificant for the bulk of sales. Actual hardware power is somewhere in the middle and below perceived, demonstrable hardware power.

Game Library.
Price.
Marketing.

Stick alignment? Do you think it should be up there with the major reasons?

Power definitely belongs in there. What console eventually won last gen? PS3. What console began in the lead? 360. (Ignoring Wii) if you track the ability of games to harness the consoles power sales pretty much followed the lead powerful console. As soon as cool looking exclusives came out for the PS3 that harnessed it's advantages over the 360 the generation started to swing.

Ps2 over dreamcast despite sega having WAYYYY better games at launch than ps2. Ps1 over N64 because of 3D performance superiority and media superiority (hardware). SNES over Genesis because of crazy FX chip games.

I can go on. Saying power isn't a deciding factor when every multiplatform game looks better or performs better on said console is kindof a weak argument to make. It's a huge factor barring large disparity in price.

 

[Crayon]

Game library - pretty much irrelevant at the beginning of a generation
Price - I'm not going to question the folly of the original Xbox reveal, but it's currently the cheapest console.
Marketing - I think the xbone reveal will put this to bed for all going forward.

And again you dismiss a controller as a valid reason...

What don't you understand?

If you think controller preference is helping xbox not drown faster or dragging down ps4 sales then I'll agree to disagree.

 

[Crayon]

Power definitely belongs in there. What console eventually won last gen? PS3. What console began in the lead? 360. (Ignoring Wii) if you track the ability of games to harness the consoles power sales pretty much followed the lead powerful console. As soon as cool looking exclusives came out for the PS3 that harnessed it's advantages over the 360 the generation started to swing.

Ps2 over dreamcast despite sega having WAYYYY better games at launch than ps2. Ps1 over N64 because of 3D performance superiority and media superiority (hardware). SNES over Genesis because of crazy FX chip games.

I can go on. Saying power isn't a deciding factor when every multiplatform game looks better or performs better on said console is kindof a weak argument to make. It's a huge factor barring large disparity in price.

I would put the power of the system somewhere behind the main three I noted. It matters. Just not nearly as much as the three prime factors.

In your ps3 vs 360 example, you neglect that the 360 was on the market a year before hand, and at a significantly better price. The rest of your points are debatable. I'll leave that at that. I'll repeat: the relative performance of the console is a factor, but a second-order effect at best.

 

[MilkyJoe]

If you think controller preference is helping xbox not drown faster or dragging down ps4 sales then I'll agree to disagree.

I'm not saying that at all, you told that fella that a controller is not a valid reason to buy a console, I'm telling you it is.

The rest? Numbers? I don't give a shit, it has no bearing in my playing, if anything the work they have put into making the Xbox more attractive is a plus. I played the original Doom on mine a couple of nights ago. How's that?

 

[belvedere]

So is the Neo 4TFLOP number official? (Thread title)

 

[MilkyJoe]

So is the Neo 4TFLOP number official? (Thread title)

Wrong thread?

 

[Crayon]

I'm not saying that at all, you told that fella that a controller is not a valid reason to buy a console, I'm telling you it is.

The rest? Numbers? I don't give a shit, it has no bearing in my playing, if anything the work they have put into making the Xbox more attractive is a plus. I played the original Doom on mine a couple of nights ago. How's that?

Controller difference doesn't move the needle for console sales and you like your xbox. We are in agreement.

 

[belvedere]

Wrong thread?

6 TFLOP system (v PS4K's 4.14)

4 is final?

 

[Stanng243]

6 TFLOP system (v PS4K's 4.14)

4 is final?

Sony hasn't given out specs, we don't know what it is.

 

[MilkyJoe]

Controller difference doesn't move the needle for console sales and you like your xbox. We are in agreement.

I'm going to say we'll have to agree to disagree.

If you go for a Google you'll find that Sony tested xbox style prototypes before going with "tradition" . And have you seen the DS "elite" patent application?

http://www.pushsquare.com/news/2016..._controller_with_paddles_and_adaptable_layout

 

[metareferential]

6 TFLOP system (v PS4K's 4.14)

4 is final?

It's consistent with all the rumours and insider info.

It doesn't mean it's confirmed (unless Sony said something I missed).

 

[cakely]

So is the Neo 4TFLOP number official? (Thread title)

No. No specs for the Neo have been announced.