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[CyberPunked]

What other games? Be specific

CoD, BF, CS, etc..

 

[Atomic Playboy]

Though you're forgetting that you can see your friends location on the galactic map. All they have to do is head towards each other and they'll meet up, and depending on how far away they are from each other, it would take varying amounts of time, but not anywhere near impossible. Then just meet at the same star system and go to its space station. A lot of people don't understand just how big the galaxy they start off in will be, but regardless, I think it's easy enough to just travel to your friend's general direction that it shouldn't be something worth giving up on unless you just get bored of the game, or you reaaallly want to see what's at the center.

Has that been verified? I think I must be in the minority, but I don't want any multiplayer component whatsoever in my playthrough. Running into a buddy completely shatters the idea of being a lone explorer setting off into a section of the universe that has never been explored (by your specific species, anyway). Even knowing my buddy is out there, trying to find his way to me, just seems like it goes the entire concept of the game. A game that makes you truly appreciate the vastness of infinite space, your insignificance on a cosmic scale, and the sheer sense of isolation you feel from being completely alone, and people are wondering "yeah, but can my buddies all do that together?"

 

[Madchad]

Pre ordered it long ago. Im wondering now with people nit picking the Universe/Galaxy thing if the center of the galaxy is a worm hole to another galaxy to start fresh and you cant leave the actual galaxy you are in until you hit the center of it :S

Wet dream would be for these guys to team up with EVEonline for a new EVE game with these aspects in it.

 

[ThirdNostril]

The more I read about this the more my imagination runs wild. I had completely forgotten about the underwater... diving deep to find a cave system that leads to a pocket of air. Leaving the ship afloat and exploring the cave further. That would be nuts.

 

[eyeball_kid]

Pre ordered it long ago. Im wondering now with people nit picking the Universe/Galaxy thing if the center of the galaxy is a worm hole to another galaxy to start fresh and you cant leave the actual galaxy you are in until you hit the center of it :S

Something like that probably. Sean said "you start off in one galaxy, but there are many". My guess is the center of the galaxy will have some ancient alien tech that will probably take you to a galaxy hub or something. The original Elite game, which NMS is heavily based on, had I think 8 galaxies.

 

[Figboy79]

Pre ordered it long ago. Im wondering now with people nit picking the Universe/Galaxy thing if the center of the galaxy is a worm hole to another galaxy to start fresh and you cant leave the actual galaxy you are in until you hit the center of it :S

I have no idea if it's a wormhole to another galaxy. For me, personally, it's irrelevant, because I'm never going to see all of the stars in the current galaxy, the idea of there being another galaxy after you reach the center of the first one is overwhelming. lol.

I plan on staying in my system for as long as I can, exploring as much of my starter planet as I can before the sentinels get pissed that I'm mining too much shit and chase me off. I want to catalog every creature I come across on my planet. Look for as many monoliths to learn alien language that I can find, upgrade my suit to the highest it can be upgraded at that point, then take off for the next planet in my system and do it all over again. I can easily see myself sinking hours into a single planet. Like, 5-10 plus, not the estimated 2-3 hours that Sean said, just because I really like taking my time and exploring. The combination of me spending 5-10 hours on a single planet (definitely 10 if the planet is visually interesting. I can see myself not staying on a boring planet for too long if I can help it), and 18 quintillion planets to explore kind of nuts.

 

[Madchad]

Yer sure i cant see myself having the time to fully explore everything i come across and still have the time to get the center but hey never know, might pack my bags and go for it if i step away for a bit to play something else then come back to this as you inevitably will end up doing.

 

[RedSwirl]

So, basically, we'll never reach the center of the galaxy and we'll never see another player.

I hope the gameplay is diverse enough to keep everyone entertained knowing there is no apparent end game or ending to speak of.

We're pretty much just going to keep doing the same things until we get bored of them, right? Scanning, uploading, crafting, trading, mining and shooting at the bad things.

Will there be some sort of Phase 2 or Phase 3 to the gameplay that will make things seem somewhat progressive or at least different along the way? An intergalactic event that we can all take part in, even if we'll never be near enough to see each other?

This is my largest concern with NMS - that we'll just get bored of the game after a short while because there is nothing to look forward to but variations of the same things.

That nobody will care about the center of the galaxy or seeing another player because it's astronomically impossible to do so. Then it becomes, "Why bother going on? There's a new hyped game coming out soon that all the cool kids are pre-ordering...?"

I hope they built in some sort of addictiveness that keeps people wanting to play, despite there not being any real end in sight. How long before the new planets we find start looking like all the other planets we've found? And can we make any meaningful or permanent changes to the small slice of galaxy we're playing in to make it feel like we've made an impact of some sort?

These are my questions.

Still, I'm buying the game, so I have only myself to blame if it's less than stellar.

Eilte: Dangerous doesn't have an endpoint. People still play it. Of course many people probably play that one sort of like an MMO. It might depend on what post-release updates NMS gets, which is one way Elite is keeping itself fresh.

Still, without getting any of those updates, if I quite Elite when NMS comes out I'll still have gotten a good 70 hours out of the game. Just quitting after that much time doesn't sound like a waste of money to me.

 

[Karak]

The more I read about this the more my imagination runs wild. I had completely forgotten about the underwater... diving deep to find a cave system that leads to a pocket of air. Leaving the ship afloat and exploring the cave further. That would be nuts.

Easily the most interesting aspect to me.

 

[Madchad]

The one thing i cant get my head around how the hell are they going to store and record the information for all the planets you and others have visited ? Is it going to be a peer to peer kind of setup if you endup somewhere that has already been visited and generated with the ones you have been to stored on your HDD ? What kind of file space would all that information be taking if they are hosting it all themselves so peoples clients can pull it off the server.

 

[Rezbit]

Can't freaking wait for this game and it's SO DAMN CLOSE!

As a massive fan of Star Control II/Starflight/Mass Effect 1 this is so far up my alley it's ridiculous (not expecting the same amount of alien interaction obviously).

Some people saying they've lost hype but I'm over here like

So thirsty!

 

[Icyflamez96]

That's true. I remember them mentioning about being able to see your friends on the galactic map, but I'm unsure of how deep/complex that's going to be. I'm also not sure how far you're going to be able to pull out of the galactic map in general. Will it be just a local view, or a world view? World view takes on a different meaning when you're talking about a galaxy or universe or whatever. But yeah, I never said it was impossible to meet up. Just that people are probably underestimating how much time it's actually going to take to do so, and other potential roadblocks like how the map is going to be displayed and what information is going to be displayed.

Every time we've seen the galaxy map, it's just been a mass of stars in three dimensional space, which could probably get really confusing if there aren't different ways to chart your course (like place markers that will keep track of where you are and your friends are at in relation to one another).

I always assumed it would be like how we've seen in the demos where you can seemingly scroll anywhere in the galaxy, but you wont be able to actually travel outside of your hyperdrive range. The biggest barrier/unknown in my eyes would be the task of finding where your friend even is. Will you be able to scroll all the way out to a full galaxy view and see markers on your friends general locations? Can you go to your friends list select an option to have it take your galactic map to whatever star system they're in? Will you have to try to painstakingly scroll through all of the stars and try to find whatever indicator that lets you know that a friend is there? The last one would be really obtuse, but I personally don't think Sean wants it to be quite that obtuse.

Earlier on, Sean talked a lot more about potential multiplayer interactions than he does when compared to more recently. I always thought that was because he was tired of people assuming that it will be easy and simple to meet their friends, so he was just doing what he could to stop people's expectations for that to get too out of hand. I do think there will be more multiplayer friendly things than what many people here expect.

You can upload discoveries for other people to see, which means it might show the location of the discovery so that you could possibly head in that direction and find it yourself. If you can share that info specifically with friends, maybe that could be used as a way of reaching each other. Sean also teased some kind of in-game messaging system a while ago. Then you have the thing where stars twinkle whenever someone makes a discovery. I think there will probably be a bit more elements like this not talked yet about that would help players find their friends, or just come across other random people. Still wouldn't be a simple task, but yeah.

I always thought there'd be certain elements that would naturally help players have more of a chance to come across someone else so that the odds of seeing another player wouldn't be on par with the near 0% chance you'd have of meeting a random if you all were just let loose in a galaxy of hundreds of billions of stars with absolutely no guidance or way to connect/communicate. At some points, Sean expressed the awe a player might feel if he came across another player, but I honestly don't think he'd do that if there was going to be actually a 0.00000000000000000001% chance of bumping into a random person. (Which would mean like 1 guy MAYBE would experience it) I still imagine the majority of players might not have that experience, (Unless there are planned multiplayer moments at the center or something) but I imagine there will be some aspects of the game that help those odds. One being the fact that most people will generally be trying to funnel to the same location

 

[Icyflamez96]

Has that been verified? I think I must be in the minority, but I don't want any multiplayer component whatsoever in my playthrough. Running into a buddy completely shatters the idea of being a lone explorer setting off into a section of the universe that has never been explored (by your specific species, anyway). Even knowing my buddy is out there, trying to find his way to me, just seems like it goes the entire concept of the game. A game that makes you truly appreciate the vastness of infinite space, your insignificance on a cosmic scale, and the sheer sense of isolation you feel from being completely alone, and people are wondering "yeah, but can my buddies all do that together?"

Yeah, it was in a 2015 gameinformer NMS article.

I personally don't see that as going against the concept of the game at all. You're not supposed to be literally all alone in the universe. Just because there are theoretically other people out there doesn't mean you're not a lone explorer.

Also you can play offline.

 

[OmegaDL50]

CoD, BF, CS, etc..

Are you honestly expecting NMS's shooting mechanics which doesn't claim to be a first person shooter, to be on the same level of games which almost it's entire focus IS almost nothing but their shooting mechanics.

Who the hell honestly expects a non-FPS which makes combat not the forefront of the game against a dedicated FPS game which that is the main focus of it's gameplay.

Hell you might as well try to compare the realism in the driving mechanics in something like Grand Theft Auto V or Just Cause 3 against Gran Turismo or Project Cars. That's basically saying because driving exists in GTA it's driving should also be compared against games that focus entirely on their driving mechanics.

Do you see why this is unreasonable comparison?

 

[Karak]

Yeah, it was in a 2015 gameinformer NMS article.

I personally don't see that as going against the concept of the game at all. You're not supposed to be literally all alone in the universe. Just because there are theoretically other people out there doesn't mean you're not a lone explorer.

Also you can play offline.

Ya thats already been verified as being in there. You can see at least up to the system which is more than enough.
What I did like is that he said that people versus NPC's wont be notated they will look the same. But all the websites and forums preparing for this and the twitch streamers already have plans around it. Thats pretty easy to work around. But I am sure there are going to be some hilarious videos of people trying.

 

[eyeball_kid]

This is the kind of trailer Hello should release. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47HzgWqv_kk

 

[ichtyander]

This is the kind of trailer Hello should release. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47HzgWqv_kk

Better combat than NMS.

Spoiler

/s

Haven't seen this promo video before, awesome stuff.

 

[GeoramA]

The more I read about this the more my imagination runs wild. I had completely forgotten about the gunderwater... diving deep to find a cave system that leads to a pocket of air. Leaving the ship afloat and exploring the cave further. That would be nuts.

I'm sure that's possible. The sheer amount of cool and weird shit to do and discover will literally be endless. Can't wait to see what people will come across.

 

[Coriolanus]

If ever implemented, I'd be interested (sociologically speaking, I guess) how players would interact with each other. If the increasing rarity of seeing someone else would make people either be friendlier, or even more hostile.

Has there ever been a multiplayer game where hostility was allowed and it didnt become the main form of interaction between players in unmonitored zones?

 

[Figboy79]

Easily the most interesting aspect to me.

Pretty much. I really love ocean documentaries, so the idea of exploring an alien ocean and maybe finding some cool sea creature or sunken starship or ruin is really exciting for me. I'm hoping my starter planet has an ocean.

 

[MaDKaT]

I always assumed it would be like how we've seen in the demos where you can seemingly scroll anywhere in the galaxy, but you wont be able to actually travel outside of your hyperdrive range. The biggest barrier/unknown in my eyes would be the task of finding where your friend even is. Will you be able to scroll all the way out to a full galaxy view and see markers on your friends general locations? Can you go to your friends list select an option to have it take your galactic map to whatever star system they're in? Will you have to try to painstakingly scroll through all of the stars and try to find whatever indicator that lets you know that a friend is there? The last one would be really obtuse, but I personally don't think Sean wants it to be quite that obtuse.

Earlier on, Sean talked a lot more about potential multiplayer interactions than he does when compared to more recently. I always thought that was because he was tired of people assuming that it will be easy and simple to meet their friends, so he was just doing what he could to stop people's expectations for that to get too out of hand. I do think there will be more multiplayer friendly things than what many people here expect.

You can upload discoveries for other people to see, which means it might show the location of the discovery so that you could possibly head in that direction and find it yourself. If you can share that info specifically with friends, maybe that could be used as a way of reaching each other. Sean also teased some kind of in-game messaging system a while ago. Then you have the thing where stars twinkle whenever someone makes a discovery. I think there will probably be a bit more elements like this not talked yet about that would help players find their friends, or just come across other random people. Still wouldn't be a simple task, but yeah.

I always thought there'd be certain elements that would naturally help players have more of a chance to come across someone else so that the odds of seeing another player wouldn't be on par with the near 0% chance you'd have of meeting a random if you all were just let loose in a galaxy of hundreds of billions of stars with absolutely no guidance or way to connect/communicate. At some points, Sean expressed the awe a player might feel if he came across another player, but I honestly don't think he'd do that if there was going to be actually a 0.00000000000000000001% chance of bumping into a random person. (Which would mean like 1 guy MAYBE would experience it) I still imagine the majority of players might not have that experience, (Unless there are planned multiplayer moments at the center or something) but I imagine there will be some aspects of the game that help those odds. One being the fact that most people will generally be trying to funnel to the same location

To be honest this just reads like you hope there is more because they havent expressly denied it . I personally feel that they have been pretty clear with the concept of multiplayer in this game and your chances are actually near 0. While possible(with luck you and your friend are at least in the same quadrant) his enthusiasm seems to be more about the grand scale and solitude even with 10s of or 100s of thousand of players sharing and discovering a universe while working towards a central goal with only subtle hints you are not alone but also that you could literally be the only live player in the nearest million star systems.

 

[diaspora]

The change of being able to come across anyone is essentially a non-zero level of probability and that's honestly the best case scenario.

 

[Z3M0G]

I wonder how people would take it if something fucked up majorly on launch. Say somehow, 500k people play at launch (this isnt unheard of, and I'm hoping it a whole lot more), and the algorithm screws up and puts us all near each other or something crazy like that.

Do you think they have simulated having 1m people log in at the same time???

Dont worry. There is nothing to log in to.

This game has had zero beta. No open or close. Think about that for a moment.

 

[metareferential]

Well, if you find another player in the first days (or ever), play some lottery. You're really, really lucky. xD

Dont worry. There is nothing to log in to.

This game has had zero beta. No open or close. Think about that for a moment.

Besides, you can play completely offline. This universe is internet-proof.

 

[Icyflamez96]

To be honest this just reads like you hope there is more because they havent expressly denied it . I personally feel that they have been pretty clear with the concept of multiplayer in this game and your chances are actually near 0. While possible(with luck you and your friend are at least in the same quadrant) his enthusiasm seems to be more about the grand scale and solitude even with 10s of or 100s of thousand of players sharing and discovering a universe while working towards a central goal with only subtle hints you are not alone but also that you could literally be the only live player in the nearest million star systems.

This isn't about hope or anything, because I don't care if there are more. That's just what I think about the situation based on all the info he's given us. There are systems in place we already know about that bump up the odds, and I wouldn't be surprised if there were more we didn't know about.

And there's very little question in my mind that it is entirely possible to meet with your friend if you guys are coordinating. I remember Sean even saying very early on that 2 friends could meet up if they coordinated.

 

[CHC]

This universe is internet-proof.

That's one of the coolest thing about the game! You can't just look up where to find things or which planets have all the best resources - no one will visit the same ones.

It's really mind blowing. I'm becoming more optimistic as the release date nears because there are just certain things that, even if the rest of the game is awful, will just be so unique and interesting about this game that they alone are worth the price of admission.

 

[MaDKaT]

This isn't about hope or anything, because I don't care if there are more. That's just what I think about the situation based on all the info he's given us. There are systems in place we already know about that bump up the odds, and I wouldn't be surprised if there were more we didn't know about.

And there's very little question in my mind that it is entirely possible to meet with your friend if you guys are coordinating. I remember Sean even saying very early on that 2 friends could meet up if they coordinated.

I agree that it is possible. He did say it was. I don't believe anyone has disagreed with that. Just need to keep in mind the scale and that everyone starts on the edge, in their own system. It could be just as far to your friend as it is to the center if you agree to meet half way. So while possible, with some dedication, coordination and maybe some creativity working with what's available in the game (same seed, same map), it is by no means trivial. Outside of purposeful effort though, your odds won't be so good.

 

[Unai]

Well, you can have bad luck and spawn in the other edge of the galaxy from where your friend is, but you can get lucky and spawn "only" 30º from him/her, etc.

 

[Handy Fake]

It's going to be really cool when two players or more actually meet up. It's going to be an event. I just think it's going to be a while before that happens. I would be genuinely shocked if people meet up within a month of release.

Each of those stars on the galaxy map isn't a planet. It's a frigging star. Each with their own planets, and we don't know how many planets are going to be in a single system. That's insane to me. There's 18 quintillion planets, but they haven't said how many stars. trillions, I guess? I have no idea. It's immense. In either case, we have three weeks left before we get our answers.

To put this in perspective, there are roughly 7.5 quintillion grains of sand in all the beaches and deserts of our planet combined.
Say if, to pull a number out of my gorgeously toned arse, 100 million people played this at once, that's 75 billion grains of sand per person.
Now, there's more than two planet's worth of sand grains. So 180 billion grains of sand per person.

Oh, and each grain of sand is the size of a planet.

Oh, and each one is floating about in a universe-sized cosmos.



So even if you and a friend were lucky enough to be deposited within your own share of planets, you're still looking at 180 billion to 1.

 

[AzaK]

Same here, I wonder why are they so "economical" with PR for the game right now, I hope we get impressions from the press before the month ends.

Well the hype that's around this game is probably enough for them. Short of some massively bad reviews it'll probably sell millions. Personally I've seen nothing about this game to get me that excited. Ships, planets and guns. Not exactly unique really. The fact it's procedurally generated means nothing either. It has to be WELL generated with interesting things to do and great gameplay.

 

[CHC]

Say if, to pull a number out of my gorgeously toned arse

 

[MaDKaT]

Well, you can have bad luck and spawn in the other edge of the galaxy from where your friend is, but you can get lucky and spawn "only" 30º from him/her, etc.

Very rough math, based only on estimated travel time to center(40-100 hours) gives me 20-50 hours / 2 people splitting the distance. Not a small investment of time for potential coop.

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

People likely spawn much more densely than you'd think, since presumably you start on the outer systems of the galaxy. Even if everyone spawns in their own solar system, there is a high liklihood they'll cross paths while travelling towards the center. It'll definitely be rare, but not a once in a lifetime event I think.

I'm guessing the center planet is some kind of hand made city planet. That is what I hope at least.

 

[MikeyB]

I want to spend an hour following an NPC patrol or trader around.

I used to randomly escort NPC ships in Freelancer. They went interesting places, occasionally got into fights, and it was relaxing.

I hope that the NPCs in NMS have some interesting travel routes.

 

[MaDKaT]

People likely spawn much more densely than you'd think, since presumably you start on the outer systems of the galaxy. Even if everyone spawns in their own solar system, there is a high liklihood they'll cross paths while travelling towards the center. It'll definitely be rare, but not a once in a lifetime event I think.

I'm guessing the center planet is some kind of hand made city planet. That is what I hope at least.

Paths may cross. Certainly more likely closer to center if player population holds. Even still, you may cross someone's path but still be many systems over or under(have they mentioned depth?), not to mention differences in travel times.

Definitely pretty excited to see how it pans out

 

[Icyflamez96]

I agree that it is possible. He did say it was. I don't believe anyone has disagreed with that. Just need to keep in mind the scale and that everyone starts on the edge, in their own system. It could be just as far to your friend as it is to the center if you agree to meet half way. So while possible, with some dedication, coordination and maybe some creativity working with what's available in the game (same seed, same map), it is by no means trivial. Outside of purposeful effort though, your odds won't be so good.

Not good, but I think it'll be more generous to some degree than many people think with whatever systems they have in place.

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

Paths may cross. Certainly more likely closer to center if player population holds. Even still, you may cross someone's path but still be many systems over or under(have they mentioned depth?), not to mention differences in travel times.

Definitely pretty excited to see how it pans out

I think the bigger challenge to finding people is actually spotting them even when you're on the same planet. What you see could just be a NPC flying around. But perhaps the highest chance to spot someone when on the same planet will be the space stations at the planets.

 

[shmoglish]

My hype is through the roof (again). Just not sure which way I should play this game. Trading, exploring, fighting, beeing a space dick (hello IGN)? But I am sure I will be superhappy when I start the game for the first time and visit my first Planet.

 

[LookAtMeGo]

Cobra TVs breakdown of the fight trailer is up. Always like his videos on NMS. Some interesting observations.

https://youtu.be/wdexjdR-tys



Does that look like lava about to burst out of the ground there on the right?

 

[eyeball_kid]

Cobra TVs breakdown of the fight trailer is up. Always like his videos on NMS. Some interesting observations.

https://youtu.be/wdexjdR-tys

Does that look like lava about to burst out of the ground there on the right?

I always feel like I'm listening to a classic rock station when I watch his videos. Nice catch on the lava...it certainly looks like it. I gotta have my space volcanoes!

 

[LookAtMeGo]

I always feel like I'm listening to a classic rock station when I watch his videos. Nice catch on the lava...it certainly looks like it. I gotta have my space volcanoes!

Haha yeah, Cobra has quite the radio station voice. Genuinely good dude though. I love his enthusiasm for the game.

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

Cobra TVs breakdown of the fight trailer is up. Always like his videos on NMS. Some interesting observations.

https://youtu.be/wdexjdR-tys



Does that look like lava about to burst out of the ground there on the right?

Looks like an ore you can harvest since it isn't glowing.

More like the color of blood.

 

[GribbleGrunger]

Does that look like lava about to burst out of the ground there on the right?

It's difficult to tell. If you look far left you'll see more of that red in the distance. We know they have an algorithm that decides on the colour pallet of a planet to give it consistent aesthetics so I'm more inclined to just think that's what we're looking at. The reason I wouldn't entirely dismiss it though is the fact it has a sheen which DOES suggest some kind of liquid.

 

[LookAtMeGo]

Looks like an ore you can harvest since it isn't glowing.

More like the color of blood.

Maybe. You can see a bit far off on the left as well. With the haze in the sky it really seems like a super hot planet. I think its lava.


Also. Is that a planet behind the crab thing or a star?

 

[GribbleGrunger]

Maybe. You can see a bit far off on the left as well. With the haze in the sky it really seems like a super hot planet. I think its lava.

Would it not smoulder though? We've seen they've got particle effects for smoke and mist in the game so why haven't they used it there?

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

Maybe. You can see a bit far off on the left as well. With the haze in the sky it really seems like a super hot planet. I think its lava.


Also. Is that a planet behind the crab thing or a star?

The other reason I think it is metal is because it appears to be shining light off it.

 

[LookAtMeGo]

You guys are probably right. The first thing I thought of when I looked at that was something like this.

Plus it looks like a star behind the crab and not a planet.

I just want lava dammit!

 

[GribbleGrunger]

You guys are probably right. The first thing I thought of when I looked at that was something like this.

Plus it looks like a star behind the crab and not a planet.

I just want lava dammit!

So do I, and they could have put that in there as a tease. Actually, looking at the pic you've posted, there isn't any 'smouldering' in that either so perhaps it isn't proof it's not lava.

 

[LookAtMeGo]

So do I, and they could have put that in there as a tease. Actually, looking at the pic you've posted, there isn't any 'smouldering' in that either so perhaps it isn't proof it's not lava.

Either way that planet looks cool even though its barren looking.


I also love how he pointed out those blue entrance ways like in the space stations on these freighters.

Hopefully that is a sign that you can land in them and they have interiors as well. Would be very cool.

 

[Wind's Howling]

I believe some people need to keep their hype in check and stay realistic. Hello Games still remains an Indie developer and did not have the manpower to put in full blown missions, huge RPG elements and character interaction like Mass Effect.

If you want a game like that and being able to explore every single planet you will get disappointed.

If you want a game where you can freely explore every rock, expect danger lurking on every planet, slowly becoming more resilient to the chemicals on certain planets, taking your time scavenging and having the odd encounter where your life is hanging in the balance, you will love this.