Support NeoGAF

[BRSxIgnition]

Closer to $399-$449 for the Neo.

$249 USD / $329 CAD for the Slim and $449 USD / $529-549 CAD for the NEO would be the sweet spot, I think.

A clear $200 difference between the models gives both room to breathe.

 

[Crimson_Gold]

High five!

Hmm. You've never offered me a high five before. I don't know if I can trust this

 

[Kenzodielocke]

PS4:

PS4 NEO:

 

[Chamber]

High five!

 

[Kenzodielocke]

Proelite is in the know or why are we flopping out?

 

[NotSmartEnough]

Basically any game with a CPU frametime <=21-22ms on standard PS4 should be able to hit 60fps pretty automagically on Neo. For VR games, any CPU-bound 90fps on standard should go to 120fps pretty easily on Neo. Some 60fps should go to 90fps. In all other cases it'll smooth fps around the standard-PS4 target.

This matches my expectations for Neo's impact on PSVR. But I do have one question/concern: a performance bump from native 90fps to 120fps is an unqualified good thing; a bump from 60fps reprojected to 120fps to native 90fps seems like it might be give-and-take. Would you get fewer repro artefacts, but slower response to head movements?

 

[Crimson_Gold]

Proelite is in the know or why are we flopping out?

We need to keep the crazy train going. Doesn't matter what gets said as long as the crazy keeps coming

 

[Daffy Duck]

PS4:

NEO:

 

[bitbydeath]

Even with all the optimization that takes place for console games, can 4.2 or even 5.5 TF get 30FPS at native 4K on console? I know we're getting into theoretical territory here but I'm curious.

Depends on the game but looks like Sony is expecting devs to pull off at least 1800p with whatever specs were standard back with this leak.

 

[cooldawn]

What if Neo is pencilled in to release the same time as Gran Turismo Sport?

2017!

Or is that what most think anyway?

 

[icespide]

What if Neo is pencilled in to release the same time as Gran Turismo Sport?

2017!

Or is that what most think anyway?

most think Neo is releasing this year

 

[DieH@rd]

What if Neo is pencilled in to release the same time as Gran Turismo Sport?

2017!

Or is that what most think anyway?

Most think that GTS and Neo have nothing to do with each other, both will come out when they are ready.

 

[GravityInsanity]

What if Neo is pencilled in to release the same time as Gran Turismo Sport?

2017!

Or is that what most think anyway?

I say in February near Horizon. New IP so you've got to advertise that more than Gran Turismo.

 

[serversurfer]

Lol, remember when you could buy a console for $300-$600(looking at you PS3 fat) and have it last for around 6 years or so without another version hitting? (Sounds like one of those old people stories).

House did say that you should still expect new hardware to last you 5-6 years, though Inuhanyou is convinced that Neo is an unspoken exception to this, because reasons.

Well, nobody expected a in the first place surfer, or rather, there were no real legitimate sources for that information. I based my predictions on there being no slim on what i thought at the time, if i'm wrong, i'm not above admitting it you know?

I expected a slim because slims make sense, and it was perfectly clear from the beginning that Neo ain't one. Regardless, I was actually referring to your continued insistence that Neo is effectively just a slim while simultaneously acknowledging the existence of the actual slim.

Er...it would be impossible to lock out visual effects rendered by the GPU just based on what TV you have.

Sure, just like devs have no way to determine when they need to prep a UHD frame buffer&#8230;

Seriously, both you and GAF would benefit a lot if you spent less time speaking authoritatively and more time thinking things through. <3

Basically it sounds Sony expects the following from developers for their games on Neo:

1) To run at a higher resolution when connected to a 4K TV (minimum 1800p it seems - although whether this is a suggested minimum or a hard minimum is difficult to tell. If you can't beat that res, they say to contact them).

2) To additionally - but seemingly optionally - run with enhancements when connected to a 1080p TV. That may be some mix of IQ improvements, framerate improvements, enhanced effects etc.

Yeah, that's the impression I got as well.

In effect the Neo user might have the kind of choice over how the game runs that some have asked for on consoles for a while - higher resolution vs higher framerate/per-pixel fidelity/whatever. But the enhancements on offer may vary from game to game, outside of the higher resolution mode for 4K TVs.

Yeah, I don't have a 4KTV but even if I did, I'd like the option to force 1080p+extras.

That was just Ubi's method and what we're likely to see if Siege gets a patch. DF theorized that Sony's method is possibly based on a technique Valve talked about in a presentation that doesn't involve MSAA. To hit 4k that method would need a base res around 1500p.

Oh? Do you have a link to said presentation and/or DF's speculation? <3

I think Andrew House is lukewarm on PSVR.

I can't remember the interviewer but there were a couple of answers he gave that sounded less like genuine enthusiasm for the product and more like a PR line.

Yeah, I'd buy that. This seems to be a case of him letting the techies have some leeway while the sun is shining. I'm sure he'll come around once the sales start coming in.

I see more and more gamers will not buy PS5 day 1 anymore.
Sony going to regret this.

The entire purpose of this strategy is so it doesn't matter if people rush towards the new hardware. Nobody will ever need to cut off old users just to speed adoption of new hardware, so going forward, the only reason to cut users loose will be technical limitations. That is as it should be.

Regarding your 60fps dilemma, even if Neo does turn out to be powerful enough to make it happen, I don't think it's really sustainable. It's just not reasonable to expect both CPU and GPU to double in performance every three years, so if even PS4/PS4.5 manage 30/60, it's unlikely PS4.5/PS5 will do the same. Realistically, your only option is PC, where you have enough excess power to brute-force the games that really only needed 30fps. Then just hope PC never becomes the primary development focus, or devs will be "optimizing" for 30fps on an i7. ;p

I think the foxconn leaker person just found his drawings and information on a foreign youtube translated into English and found out he's famous. lmao.

I think he said they're still producing 5-6k consoles a day of the Neo.

At that rate, they'll have about a million units ready for an early-March launch. I know they described this as "full production," so does that mean they won't be ramping up in the foreseeable future?

Materials have been compared to the Slims. Not very premium in other words.

I thought they said the design was similar to the slim, but the materials were more similar to the original?

Anyone expecting anything else is setting themselves up for a huge disappointment.

meh Wouldn't be the first time Sony have disappointed me, and it won't be the last.

My highest expectation is 1.8TF.
They decided premium console is stupid, cancel Neo and stick with what works for 30 years.
Not going to happen I know, so my expectation is the most impossible of all expectation.

/nod Hope for the best, but prepare for the worst.

Really? I'll have to look that up then. I remember the original rumor mentioning that Sony was debating on the CPU spec, but I didn't know we had TF estimates to go along with that.

Either way, I'm not really expecting NEO to be a powerhouse. I think their best bet is to launch it with the leaked specs at $399. Time will tell.

For clarification, the original leak said they were targeting a 1Q17 launch, and there was a frequently-mentioned possibility of a "better CPU." Prices were gonna be $399 or possibly $499. After Scorpio was announced as "most power ever" at 6TF, Neo's "better CPU" was brought up as potentially trumping it, and Osiris clarified that yes, the better CPU would also have a better GPU to go along with it, but it was planned at 5.5TF, which would leave the claims about Scorpio being most powerful still true, but obviously by a much smaller margin. In the mean time, he'd also heard that things had changed, and rather than targeting $399 or $499, Sony were instead looking at $499 or $599, but they *REALLY* didn't want to risk $599 again.

Then a couple of weeks after E3, a Sony dev told him they still felt sticking with the original plan of a 1Q17 launch gave them the best chance of coming in at $499 rather than $599, even if they went with the more powerful option. Then everything went dark, and there were no more leaks to be had.

Not entirely true. AI doesn't need to do pathfinding twice as often because decisions are made at a different tick rate than animations. Network code is dealing with the same latency and bandwidth so it won't have double the workload. Audio related work is identical to running at 30fps. It's extremely title-dependent ... and none of it is the deciding factor anyway.

Oh, do they actually have different tick rates for the different subsystems? I've been advocating that kind of stuff for a while, but I had no idea devs were already doing it. Well, good.

 

[Shin-Ra]

Just get an HDMI 2.0 <-> DP1.2 (or higher) cable/converter. The chances of Neo supporting displayport are very slim.
That cable is directional in the wrong direction it wouldn't work for him

There's only DP to HDMI converters like this: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0194F1MY4/?tag=neogaf0e-20

Nothing in the other direction.

 

[anothertech]

When I finally do play FFXV, I'll do so on Neo. I don't want to experience it on a regular PS4.

Haha I'm in same exact mindset there

 

[DavidDesu]

This matches my expectations for Neo's impact on PSVR. But I do have one question/concern: a performance bump from native 90fps to 120fps is an unqualified good thing; a bump from 60fps reprojected to 120fps to native 90fps seems like it might be give-and-take. Would you get fewer repro artefacts, but slower response to head movements?

The Rift and Vive operate at 90fps I believe so it's the perfect compromise I believe. Definitely an improvement over base 60 with the reprojection which, yeah, does cause more obvious artefacting (like Eurogamer mentioned in Driveclub VR when looking left or right as the scenery is going by). If these framerate improvements can be brought then it definitely benefits PSVR games.

I'm guessing that they might lean towards down sampling from higher resolutions instead of going the framerate route (if both aren't possible together) as I believe down sampling really improves the image quality in VR. Reprojection or 90fps still seems to work really well on PSVR and using Neo for down sampling could really boost the clarity of visuals on offer through their panel, which most people have said is not that far off from the Rift or Vive, and with some enhancements by being full RGB OLED even if slightly lower res. Down sampling could really close the in-headset visuals gap to PC VR.

 

[digitalrelic]

PS4:

Neo:

 

[gofreak]

This matches my expectations for Neo's impact on PSVR. But I do have one question/concern: a performance bump from native 90fps to 120fps is an unqualified good thing; a bump from 60fps reprojected to 120fps to native 90fps seems like it might be give-and-take. Would you get fewer repro artefacts, but slower response to head movements?

I believe you're always reprojecting to 120hz output for the latency benefit - even if rendering at 120fps native there's a last-millisecond reprojection!

 

[spectator]

I believe you're always reprojecting to 120hz output for the latency benefit - even if rendering at 120fps native there's a last-millisecond reprojection!

???

For native 120fps, how would an extra processing step (the reprojection) benefit latency?

 

[Inuhanyou]

House did say that you should still expect new hardware to last you 5-6 years, though Inuhanyou is convinced that Neo is an unspoken exception to this, because reasons

NEO can still last people 5 to 6 years. Its not as if crossgen stops existing. What you should not expect, is for PS5 to be constrained by Jaguar cores.

I expected a slim because slims make sense, and it was perfectly clear from the beginning that Neo ain't one. Regardless, I was actually referring to your continued insistence that Neo is effectively just a slim while simultaneously acknowledging the existence of the actual slim.

I'm talking about the basic concept of a midgen refresh, with NEO and Slim both taking the place of a general slim model that would have been released around this time. Atleast get what i'm saying right.

Sure, just like devs have no way to determine when they need to prep a UHD frame buffer…

Seriously, both you and GAF would benefit a lot if you spent less time speaking authoritatively and more time thinking things through. <3

Scaling a framebuffer for a UI is completely different from determining an entire graphics pipline based on someone's TV.

And you would benefit a lot from not being as antagonistic as you have been acting.

 

[Dynomutt]

PS4:

Neo:

 

[digitalrelic]

PS4:

Neo:

 

[GAFmeansLIFE]

These PS4 vs Neo screenshots are hilarious

 

[Darklor01]

 

[Negotiator]

What's going on with the hyperbole screenshot comparisons? I'm having an Xbone vs PS4 dejavu, lol...

 

[Kaako]

PS4:

Neo:

 

[benny_a]

???

For native 120fps, how would an extra processing step (the reprojection) benefit latency?

Because the reprojection is done at the last possible step before scanout and thus improves perceived latency.

Although I think 90Hz is reprojected to 90Hz not 120Hz.

 

[anothertech]

What's going on with the hyperbole screenshot comparisons? I'm having an Xbone vs PS4 dejavu, lol...

Well I suppose if you switch out the ps4 with Xbone labels it would make the same accurate comparison with the Neo shots. lol

 

[Shredderi]

These crazy speculation threads are always more entertaining than the actual reveal. Gotta enjoy all these pre-reveal threads as long as one can.

 

[Turkoop]

PS4:

PS4 NEO:

IF YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN.

 

[BRocknRolla]

PS4:

Neo:

 

[Darklor01]

PS4:

PS4 NEO:

IF YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN.

Newp.

 

[Turkoop]

Newp.

THIS HAD TO BE DONE, by me especially.

 

[Blanquito]

PS4:Neo:

Is that a vex mythoclast?

???

For native 120fps, how would an extra processing step (the reprojection) benefit latency?

Because the reprojection is done at the last possible step before scanout and thus improves perceived latency.

Although I think 90Hz is reprojected to 90Hz not 120Hz.

Benny is correct. It is recommended by every HMD that has it available (Oculus, Vive, PSVR) to use reprojection even if you're already hitting the targeted frame rate because of the improved response.

 

[black070]

 

[GravityInsanity]

PS4:

PS4 NEO:

IF YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN.

 

[spectator]

Because the reprojection is done at the last possible step before scanout and thus improves perceived latency.

Ah, ok- perceived latency, not actual latency. That makes more sense.

 

[justsomeguy]

Ps4: you
Neo: me

 

[JuanLatino]

PS4

PSNEO

 

[Darklor01]

PS4

PSNEO

Hahahahahaha

 

[Loudninja]

What are you guys doing.

 

[Kaako]

What are you guys doing.

Going out of our minds slowly.
Oh who am I kidding, we were insane to begin with.

 

[Mass_Pincup]

What are you guys doing.

Getting this thread locked looks like lol.

 

[Dynomutt]

PS4:

Neo:

 

[bitbydeath]

PS4 --> Neo

 

[SAMZ]

i know NEO will be a nice upgrade from PS4. I'm still waiting for information about SATA 3 or full SSD support, and maybe a fucking USB port at the back!

 

[farmerboy]

I'm loving these ps4 v neo screens

 

[klaushm]

Getting this thread locked looks like lol.

Just my thoughts.

 

[onQ123]

onQ123 - it's not happening.

First off, if extra GPU power can relieve a CPU bottleneck with dev reworking of code, the existing rumoured design already accommodates that model. Devs can tap a PS4-GPU worth of GPGPU power on the already rumoured design and still have ample to spare vs the regular PS4 if they want. Why stick a second separate GPU on the same die, or two chips in there? The design already has that optimisation path pretty comprehensively covered.

That optimisation model wouldn't address critics of the CPU anyway. They want an easy boost for CPU workloads, not something that requires a lot of dev work.

Not to mention if they were happy to tolerate extra cost/cooling/etc. they would be better off throwing it at just a larger single GPU if they were going that route. It would be more flexible, simpler for developers etc.

Neo's design has been laid out to us for months now. I can understand the temptation of elaborate 'there must be something else' theories if you're not happy with what's rumoured, but that kind of temptation has only embarrassed people over and over in the past.

In Neo mode the APU will be a CPU with co-processors /accelerators Devs will still see it as a Jaguar CPU while Sony can update the functions of these co-processors/accelerators with microcode.