Haunted
Member
Man, I hope not.
I don't know if my heart can take another underwhelming E3.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
PC vs. Next Gen Consoles: Your current rig really won't cut it
- Thread starter Kosma
- Start date
I don't know if my heart can take another underwhelming E3.
mugurumakensei
Member
It's especially funny since a fair amount of code is in unreal script, lisp, javascript, lua, etc which are interpreted and not coded to the metal.
shinobi602
Member
I think we'll see that for launch. I'm expecting it at 720p with decreased AA, at 30 fps.
It may have run on multiple 680s, but I think we'll see extensive optimization from the last time it was shown right up until launch to achieve that (a lot can can change in 18 months).
I think a lot of people are underestimating just how much can change in the visual realm with enough efficient optimization and tweaking. If I recall correctly Tim Sweeney said it took tri-SLI 580s to run Samaritan and with some optimization over the course of a few months they got it to run on a single 680.
So true.
hardcastlemccormick
Banned
The posts in the thread.
People seem to enjoy ignoring the whole power draw thing. Rest assured that Sony and Microsoft will use magic pixie dust to make a GeForce 680 run with a 50 watt power draw. Actually, better than a GeForce 680 - more features and wowie zowie! Stuff that modern PC's can't even dream of!
This isn't the era where we had a new Shader Model version every six months, knocking out the old graphics cards by the dozens. And I doubt we'll see a major revision to both DirectX AND OpenGL until 2015 or 2016, meaning aside from brute force (which won't be much of a factor because of power draw concerns) there won't be anything holding graphics cards back in the next generation.
seattle6418
Member
If consoles are weak compared to PCs, it kind of cannibalizes the market. The consoles will (and they have to) be impressive compared to current PC rigs.
Some PC enthusiasts are missing a point here. This notion that my computer could last me for the entire next gen relatively well is crazy. (current rig: Asus G74 sx, 8gb, GTX560m with 2gb GDRR5)
People are seriously underestimating the next gen consoles and thinking that just because of Nintendo everybody will go for low end specs and average performance.
That can't work because it would mean giving up the hardcore market to the PC.
Kind of reminds me of the arguments made in the 90's that consoles would never reach arcade level of power due to cost and things like that.
The OP is 100% correct, and he plays on PCs for a long time. We've seen this movie before, there's a nice comeback feelgood story about the PCs, but i'm pretty sure my current rig will be kind of useless for new games in mid to end of 2014.
Some PC enthusiasts are missing a point here. This notion that my computer could last me for the entire next gen relatively well is crazy. (current rig: Asus G74 sx, 8gb, GTX560m with 2gb GDRR5)
People are seriously underestimating the next gen consoles and thinking that just because of Nintendo everybody will go for low end specs and average performance.
That can't work because it would mean giving up the hardcore market to the PC.
Kind of reminds me of the arguments made in the 90's that consoles would never reach arcade level of power due to cost and things like that.
The OP is 100% correct, and he plays on PCs for a long time. We've seen this movie before, there's a nice comeback feelgood story about the PCs, but i'm pretty sure my current rig will be kind of useless for new games in mid to end of 2014.
I am not saying my I7 and GTX 680 are good for 6 years ... I am saying my rig will run the next wave of games that come from the new consoles very easily. Obviously I will have to upgrade in the next few years. So many ppl in this thread are expecting consoles to be packing top level hardware and its just not going to happen.
I plan on buying a new pc or building one soon anyway , constant cycle man. Again the point is that new consoles won't even have hardware that is equal to what I have in my current PC.
Let's just be real some folks love consoles and do not wish to get into PC's for whatever reasons. There is a lot of hope floating around but you are not going to see a console with a 680 or 690 in it.
I plan on buying a new pc or building one soon anyway , constant cycle man. Again the point is that new consoles won't even have hardware that is equal to what I have in my current PC.
Let's just be real some folks love consoles and do not wish to get into PC's for whatever reasons. There is a lot of hope floating around but you are not going to see a console with a 680 or 690 in it.
If Durango has that 8850-level GPU and a CPU with 16 threads... yeah, it will be pretty damn top level.
Save this thread and we can reply back when it comes out. Highly doubt you will see that level.of hardware. Hope so since I will be buying it myself, but very doubtful.
That's actually a pretty reasonable expectation for both next gen systems based off the rumors we currently have. I have a feeling that RAM will be the only notable difference between them.
Hoping either of these consoles will have a card that is a 7870 or above... that is not really a reasonable expectation in my mind. Again I am buying both of these consoles, so bring it on. But I just don't see how it's possible with cost constraints and power consumption.
Assuming the 8850 level GPU he was speaking of is in regards to the AMD 8850 that isn't even out yet, if I am wrong on this then disregard this post because I don't know what he's talking about then.
The 8850/8870 models are this year's pictairn equivalent and they'll be more powerful than the 7870, as well as smaller and more energy efficient. They're prime candidates for use in consoles.
hemtae
Member
Supposedly AMD is going energy conscience for their next gen. I don't think they'll have a 8850 in them either but it doesn't hurt to let the dreamers dream.
I see I see, nice. I am only current with Nvidia cards to be honest, not up to date on my AMD cards as far as what's coming out. Well we can hope, who knows. We will all find out eventually I guess, all I know is I am so tired of Xbox 360 and how laggy it can get in the menu's. Cannot wait for the next gen of consoles I am realllllly not hyped though, I just want a clean/fast UI at this point. I buy consoles for sports games and exclusives mostly, but man the slow app loading and dashboard lag gets really old these days. Hell Netflix is almost broken on 360 when you search for shit, but anyway I am going off on a tangent.
Keep it for now, wait for the next batch of Nvidia cards (Maxwell?). That's what I ll be doing, 670 is fine for now. Year 1/2, 2 years? Ya definitely time for upgrades for both of us at that point.
Glass Rebel
Member
I wonder about that. I guess we'll see how my 670 will hold up. I would actually hope it's too weak by the end of next-gen. I didn't get into PC gaming to keep the same hardware for 5-7 years.
Pachterballs
Banned
I don't get the attempts to downplay next gen consoles.
we already have hints of what X720+ps4 visuals will look like.
UE4. + samaritan
so if it that's the benchmark. NEXT GEN or whatever you want to call it is going to be pretty freaking amazing!
Once it gets going and devs use the engine and get up to speed. I can only imagine how much of a treat we'll be in for.
Photorealism can only go so far. And we're almost there on pc with the cutting edge titles - that driving car game is already photoreal. Its the artistry and tech combined that will make the experiences.
we already have hints of what X720+ps4 visuals will look like.
UE4. + samaritan
so if it that's the benchmark. NEXT GEN or whatever you want to call it is going to be pretty freaking amazing!
Once it gets going and devs use the engine and get up to speed. I can only imagine how much of a treat we'll be in for.
Photorealism can only go so far. And we're almost there on pc with the cutting edge titles - that driving car game is already photoreal. Its the artistry and tech combined that will make the experiences.
Duxxy3
Member
If sony and microsoft are aiming to repeat this generation, then i think we will end up with some really high end consoles.
Buuuut... i think going for a repeat is a huge mistake.
Core gamers may not mind paying $399-$499 for a console but the people who bought the PS2 and then the Wii won't go for it, regardless of how great it looks.
Buuuut... i think going for a repeat is a huge mistake.
Core gamers may not mind paying $399-$499 for a console but the people who bought the PS2 and then the Wii won't go for it, regardless of how great it looks.
True.
The other thing we've to remember is that there'll be no nVidia chip and secondly, iirc, the mobile version of 7970 (akin to performance between desktop 7870 and 7850) drew only 65W max. And add to that, we don't even know what MS and Sony are planning with AMD but the power envelope would be similar to this gen's consoles.
Finally, I am pretty certain people with 7850s or GT 660ti with decent processor and about 8GB of RAM are already prepared to enjoy the next gen albeit at lower framerates than 60 than the best current gen games at 1080p. But as time would move on, unlike a closed box, the devs would be hitting the limit every time, wringing the max of these consoles, for PC gamers to keep up, they may need to spend extra cash to keep above the visual fidelity of consoles (IQ, resolution and framerate).
8850 looks like a great candidate to base Durango's GPU on.
Those specifications are speculations at best.
Portugeezer
Member
That's why I'm waiting about 2 years, just to make sure it will hold up for many years after.
A lot depends on the price. I see them aiming for a $400 price point, maybe a bit higher, then it depends if they are willing to take losses, I don't think they will take big losses so it will be $400 worth of hardware and no more.
Problem as usual could be that there will be a lot of console centric games on shit engines for PC.
Last gen 360 was pretty powerful at launch, there could be a bigger gap next gen between a gaming PC and 720 at launch.
A lot depends on the price. I see them aiming for a $400 price point, maybe a bit higher, then it depends if they are willing to take losses, I don't think they will take big losses so it will be $400 worth of hardware and no more.
Problem as usual could be that there will be a lot of console centric games on shit engines for PC.
Pachterballs
Banned
its been a super long generation. What are you on about?
who cares about the ps2+wii people.
ps2 and Wii people
Agree with you btw, just sayin lol.
Already took my 680 out the PC and threw it in the sink, piece of shit.
mugurumakensei
Member
Slow pickup is bad for developers. Increased cost and slow adaptation is a bad mix. It's partly what killed so many devs early on.
AdventureRacing
Member
The PS3/360 combo will have sold more than the PS2 when all is said and done. Individually each won't end up all that far behind the wii either. Maybe the crowd you're talking about isn't as small as you think?
Also people have no problems spending that much money for entertainment devices. It's about making these devices appealing enough to justify the price and that's why they are branching outside of just gaming.
Pachterballs
Banned
8850 looks like a great candidate to base Durango's GPU on.
I am not saying that this list should be a bannable offense... I am just saying people posting this should be kicked in the nuts.
That won't happen. Ever.
Lower power
Higher performance
Larger die
Lower price
No.
Lower Power and higher performance is believable. The price is so wrong though lol.
Pachterballs
Banned
I can believe MS+SONY can push the cost of parts down. They'll be ordering parts for the next xxteenth years so it could possibly be lower. They're not buying at commercial/retail prices. Nor is it what we'd call OEM. Its wholesale.
and the pricing obviously has a planned cost savings in its costing (as with all components)
and the pricing obviously has a planned cost savings in its costing (as with all components)
Correct if wrong, but, are some people thinking that these new consoles will be put together in the next few months? If these two system are going to be in stores this year, the silicon must be finished by now, and in production. It's no just taking "of-the-shelf" parts, putting them on a box and sent the word to the developers...
Also, designing these systems takes time, so, they may use GPUs from.... 2011 (don't freak out!).
Also, designing these systems takes time, so, they may use GPUs from.... 2011 (don't freak out!).
mugurumakensei
Member
Yea, and it's still outpacing 360 and PS3.
Pachterballs
Banned
^ lol @ jaz + mugu
Well, go kick a mod in the nuts, because he posted a link that talks about those same "leaked" specs of the 8850. http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=45838726&postcount=4961
Price might not be far off, and MS/Sony wouldn't pay anywhere near that anyway.
FunkyMunkey
Banned
These threads make my head hurt. It's like people cannot come to terms that the next xbox/ps4 will not match current top-tier PC games. That console expectations thread had people hoping for a $400 launch price and launch games that will match demos shown on two gtx 680s? I mean, what? Also, every next-gen demo has been running on PC's that have graphics cards(just the cards) that singularly cost more than most would pay for an entire next-gen console.
Then, it dribbles down to "well, next xbox will STILL have SW1313 and Watch Dogs!". Well yes, it will. At a lower res, with less AA, lower IQ and fidelity, and smaller textures. PC's will always, always be ahead of the curve. That's what less of a concern for power and heat(and theoretically cost) allows.
Hoping/Expecting the next consoles to look fantastic is a logical train of thought. Expecting them to break manners and laws of physics(thermodynamics) and economics, is not. The points in the OP have been dismantled by many here already.
If the next-gen consoles have launch models priced at $600-$700, I'll gladly be mistaken, but a $400 model is not to be line with what the OP suggests. Unless microsoft is willing to take a huge loss, which I strongly doubt.
Another valid point.
Then, it dribbles down to "well, next xbox will STILL have SW1313 and Watch Dogs!". Well yes, it will. At a lower res, with less AA, lower IQ and fidelity, and smaller textures. PC's will always, always be ahead of the curve. That's what less of a concern for power and heat(and theoretically cost) allows.
Hoping/Expecting the next consoles to look fantastic is a logical train of thought. Expecting them to break manners and laws of physics(thermodynamics) and economics, is not. The points in the OP have been dismantled by many here already.
If the next-gen consoles have launch models priced at $600-$700, I'll gladly be mistaken, but a $400 model is not to be line with what the OP suggests. Unless microsoft is willing to take a huge loss, which I strongly doubt.
Another valid point.
Don't kick Niro in the nuts!
Btw FunkyMunkey I know how you feel =/ Again I am buying them anyway so I hope they are great, but I agree with you.
I am not saying those specs are accurate by any means but lower power for higher performance or more performance per watt have been the trend when it comes to advancement of GPU.
Look at the GTX 480 and the GTX 680 ... more power, less watts. GTX 480 was a power hungry whore and ran so hot. 680 is less watts and soooo much cooler. You are right on that. Those prices seem way to low though.
hardcastlemccormick
Banned
Even though we keep pointing out a dozen factors that change the situation. Sure, if you eliminate all factors so that this gen will play out like the next, then yeah, you're probably right.
But don't listen to anybody, it's only just pointing out technical, objective reasons why consoles won't be the same old story. No big deal.
EDIT: And if anyone accuses me of bias, you can just skip right to making fun of my current "rig" sporting a Radeon 5670.
kingkaiser
Member
So, if I get it right from your statement than PCs are going to be more power hungry than ever, needing ridiculous cooling-systems with lots of fans just because their hardware is inefficient as hell? Just to play the games in higher resolutions and with more frames?
I mean sure, some people will still don't give a fuck about power consumption and efficiency but that's going to be costly in the future. Electricity price here in Europe is now going through the roof too. Thanks, but I will keep my business PC as a work machine/media-hub and for playing older games like Diablo. Low noise, green/power efficiency and a small stylish case which fits right in the living room will always be more important to me than raw power...
They're designed with power and pricing goals far in advance so they could have been targeting 2013 GPUs based on roadmaps since the initial planning stages. With the die shrinks and power efficiency improvements that have happened the past few years a newer GPU could make more sense in a console than an older one.
mugurumakensei
Member
The fans in GPUs are loud, but heat in the case isnt an issue for any decent rig as good rigs have full towers. Thus, they have a lot of space for air flow. Consoles on the other hand will never have as much space as a full tower.
KungFucius
King Snowflake
The question is not whether the hardware is powerful enough, it's whether or not it is the fault of the developers or nvidia/amd that their old cards cannot handle newer games.
AMD and NVidia do not have the resources to support a 7 year old GPU considering how few people will be using them for gaming. The 6800 ultra had 512MB and IIRC this was huge back then. Nowadays cards have 1, 2 or 3gb and devs design their games to make use of that. I am sure they could optimize them to run with no goodies on older hardware, but why should they. Heck I wasn't even that big of PC gamer and I have upgraded my GPU 3 times during the 360's lifecycle.
AMD and NVidia do not have the resources to support a 7 year old GPU considering how few people will be using them for gaming. The 6800 ultra had 512MB and IIRC this was huge back then. Nowadays cards have 1, 2 or 3gb and devs design their games to make use of that. I am sure they could optimize them to run with no goodies on older hardware, but why should they. Heck I wasn't even that big of PC gamer and I have upgraded my GPU 3 times during the 360's lifecycle.
I beg to differ.
(what? you didn't say anything about space...)
Pesky coil whine aside, the cooler is pretty damn near silent. Or inaudible over case noise anyways.
Speaking of cooling -- you're paying for it somewhere when it comes to consoles - high speed tiny fans with a more annoying noise signature than larger low RPM fans that are typical for desktops.
Stallion Free
Cock Encumbered
The fact that they cut one of the heaviest performance hitting features, MSAA, and the fact that the single card was a generation ahead obviously played a roll in said "optimization."
Wiktor
Member
I somehow doubt makes of Total War, PlanetSide 2, Cliffs of Dover and many others built their games thinking about console RAM and CPUs.
IrishNinja
Member
man, this thread has it all: more stephen colbert copypasta nonsense, people talking 16 GB of RAM in consoles (you think that'll be enough?), haha
my first thought, right here. even a conservative estimate would be upgrading certain bits across 6+ years, but if OP turns out right, that'd be pretty cool too.
my first thought, right here. even a conservative estimate would be upgrading certain bits across 6+ years, but if OP turns out right, that'd be pretty cool too.
les papillons sexuels
Banned
i'm not worried, it seems like most of the more talented developers are moving out of realism in visuals and making more room for stylization, which should yield better results for lower power.
SneakyStephan
Banned
Same transistor size + way more transistors equals more power consumption, not less.
This is why the hd 6970 and gtx 580 were 300W cards, 3rd gen in a row of using the same process (since the hd 4770), they had to keep upping transistor count and increasing clockspeeds to get the performance jumps needed like always. Just a new architecture alone wouldn't cut it (not over 3 gens). Power usage skyrocketed.
That chart is simply not possible.
You can't just make up patterns based on previous gens, there has to be a logic behind them.
The next AMD and nvidia cards will still be 28nm, but now with much larger dies and probably higher clockspeeds.
Expect the high end versions (real high end this time, not 256bit bus width and 294mm^2 die size like the gtx 680 which is just an overclocked vastly overpriced midrange die+board) to be both power hungry and hot, just like the cards before kepler/southern islands were.
From a consumer pov what we can look forward to is finally getting our midrange cards at midrange prices. (with the impressive performance jump per watt that the die shrink and new architecture from kepler/Southern islands brought)
It'll be a year late but better than not at all I suppose.
Something like a gtx 670 (tiny buswidth and small die size) can't be costing nvidia much, price wise it should easily fit into the next consoles' budgets (or AMD equivalent since they'll have AMD gpus).
If amd can catch up to nvidia performance/watt wise with the 8xxx series I'd be amazed if we don't get something similar to a gtx 670 in powerdraw and performance from AMD in ps4/xbox3.
edit: to clarify: a slightly downclocked gtx 670 (possible with a bunch of transistors removed for pc specific stuff a console doesn't have to care about) would consume 130W or less and a small die size will mean it is cheap without the current chump consumer double markup that us pc gamers are paying.
There's no reason why an AMD equivalent couldn't easily go in a console at the end of the year.
That's assuming MS and sony don't blow all their budget on gimmicks like Wii U pad or some kinect shit and that they offer some value for our money, obviously.
I keep seeing people claim we can't get any half decent gpu in next gen consoles because a gtx 680 costs soo much, but current gen cards are massively overpriced (even after the many price drops).
Performance/dollar actually went down from 2009 until 2012 until the latest retailer price drops (hd4870 ->hd 7970) , instead of doubling as you'd normally expect it to.
Let's hope that nvidia and amd making off like thieves this last year has allowed them to spend some money into R&D so they can come up with an interesting new architecture for the next die shrink.
Are they? I havent seen this happen. Who are you talking about?