Dark_AnNiaLatOr
Member
Yea, I remember reading that Apple had a version of the Mac OS running on x86 since the very beginning, so they wouldn't get left behind.
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VGLeaks: Details multiple devkits evolution of Orbis
- Thread starter shinobi602
- Start date
Yea, I remember reading that Apple had a version of the Mac OS running on x86 since the very beginning, so they wouldn't get left behind.
I don't think anyone would care, as it is the SPUs use a different instruction set than the PPU on the CELL.
I wouldn't be shocked if they put the CELL or a stripped down SPU only module in the PS4.
Hopefully. Would seem strange for them to stop now, unless lawyers have got them.
Having BC for PS4 is all about perception.
Even if you don't play one single PS3 game on PS4 it's still nice to have BC. Personally I like the idea of re-releasing HD versions of previous generation games. Similar to ICO and SOTC as long as they release them at decent prices, I would buy the uncharted trilogy in 60FPS at 1080P.
Even if you don't play one single PS3 game on PS4 it's still nice to have BC. Personally I like the idea of re-releasing HD versions of previous generation games. Similar to ICO and SOTC as long as they release them at decent prices, I would buy the uncharted trilogy in 60FPS at 1080P.
Manmademan
Member
I wouldn't say it's a done deal, but you REALLY have to bend over backwards to think of reasons why Sony would leave it out.
If it was just an issue with PS3 disc based games that would be one thing, but breaking compatibility with PSN causes more problems for sony than saving 20-40 dollars per unit would solve. Think of it this way- if including BC (and thus access to all those free games on PSN) causes 50% of people who buy a PS4 to sign up for PS+ for two years, sony makes a profit. As wildly popular as PS+ is with the hardcore crowd, this is a lowball estimate.
Dark_AnNiaLatOr
Member
I'd be really happy if BC is in, so I can sell ma PS3 and just play GTA V on a PS4 that I hopefully buy for $399 this year.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
Their Facebook page says "next" rather than "last" FWIW.
by recompiling the PS3 code to PS4 code they can have the code that was processed by the SPEs processed by the GPGPU.
oversitting
Banned
For any items on the market, you want to have sales asap. Having it spread out over a long period of time means you are losing money.
yeah, they will lose $2 billion so they can make a system that will allow gamers to buy less new games
.Of course, Sony was crazy like that. If they did what MS did with 360, they would have made billions more. Without PS2 compatibility, without standard HDD, without ability to use any periphal, without free PSN. Sony would have lost 5% of sales max, but probably made several billions more in profit. Heck you could argue that today the company would not be in the same mess if they did it.
I doubt that there will be PS3 BC... it would be last nail in the coffin for Sony.
it'll take a lot of dev time but its possible.
R10Neymarfan
Member
The Kotaku leak or was it VG? said something about a 160GB HDD although with that much space I'm assuming it's an SSD. However SSD are certainly expensive, but if Sony can somehow get it for less in manufacturing costs then that would be good. From what I see, everyone get a hard on for SSDs.
Not that simple. The easier way is if they had the fore thought to not let the developers go past the base api layers then it would be simple.
NeXTStep was on x86. Apple dropped that when they picked it up as OS X, but eventually one of their engineers ported it to x86 as a hobby project.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
That's just the dev kit. Nothing to do with the retail unit.
There was a rumor a long time ago that pointed toward a 256Gb SSD but I doubt it, as much as I would like it.
That is a devkit and nothing more. I'm convinced that you won't see a PS4 with a SSD inside on sale.
iamvin22
Industry Verified
from timothy lottes comments section:
meon113:28
very good read. i just read sebbbi's thread on bandwidth vs amount and its just as good. my question to you is do you think both consoles with release this year and if so when do kits have to be final spec?
Timothy Lottes18:45
My guess is that devs got seaded early with PC's with GPUs with similar specs to estimated final hardware. If that is correct, most launch titles are just PC games (which won't ever get released on PC) ported to actual devkits later in the production cycle. For Microsoft's side it could be really easy to port a game based on PC over if the console is another Win8 DX11 box, so maybe they could send out hardware relatively late. For Sony it might make sense to support OpenGL for launch titles, and to reduce the pressure on whatever internal team was tooling up any lower level interface. This would also help push out when devs need to get the real kits. I hope for the sake of both that they are released this year together. The Orbis rumor is a notebook 7970M clocked down, the 7970M was released in April of last year, if say Sony releases next year then they are 2 years behind PC with these rumored specs.
meon101:25
thanks for the reply. just one more question do you think a 7970M in a closed console with 4 to 3.5 of GDDR5 can handle your new project? i wish sony stuck with nvidia (nothing against amd). i am a die hard nvidia fan and would have liked to see a nvidia chip in PS4.
is backwards compatibility possible on PS4 at this point with rumored specs?
Timothy Lottes13:06
I'm going to guess that 7970M could not handle my triangle/frame budget for the 560ti, but I won't know until I try it later in development. I'm going to support AMD GPUs, just I might have to dial back the level of detail. The plan is that the game will adapt automatically to maintain v-sync regardless of what GPU you have. I'm requiring a DX11 feature level GPU.
I'd be shocked if PS4 emulates any PS3 games, ports maybe, but I doubt SPU emulation is possible.
meon113:28
very good read. i just read sebbbi's thread on bandwidth vs amount and its just as good. my question to you is do you think both consoles with release this year and if so when do kits have to be final spec?
Timothy Lottes18:45
My guess is that devs got seaded early with PC's with GPUs with similar specs to estimated final hardware. If that is correct, most launch titles are just PC games (which won't ever get released on PC) ported to actual devkits later in the production cycle. For Microsoft's side it could be really easy to port a game based on PC over if the console is another Win8 DX11 box, so maybe they could send out hardware relatively late. For Sony it might make sense to support OpenGL for launch titles, and to reduce the pressure on whatever internal team was tooling up any lower level interface. This would also help push out when devs need to get the real kits. I hope for the sake of both that they are released this year together. The Orbis rumor is a notebook 7970M clocked down, the 7970M was released in April of last year, if say Sony releases next year then they are 2 years behind PC with these rumored specs.
meon101:25
thanks for the reply. just one more question
do you think a 7970M in a closed console with 4 to 3.5 of GDDR5 can handle your new project? i wish sony stuck with nvidia (nothing against amd). i am a die hard nvidia fan and would have liked to see a nvidia chip in PS4.is backwards compatibility possible on PS4 at this point with rumored specs?
Timothy Lottes13:06
I'm going to guess that 7970M could not handle my triangle/frame budget for the 560ti, but I won't know until I try it later in development. I'm going to support AMD GPUs, just I might have to dial back the level of detail. The plan is that the game will adapt automatically to maintain v-sync regardless of what GPU you have. I'm requiring a DX11 feature level GPU.
I'd be shocked if PS4 emulates any PS3 games, ports maybe, but I doubt SPU emulation is possible.
People tend to forget this, but BC is for more than just current user's old collections. It helps publishers make the transition to the next generation, since they can keep selling their previous gen games on the system that's getting all the attention. It's also great for projects that run long and release after the next-gen. See PSP games getting localized after the Vita released, Wii games after the Wii U, all the awesome PS2 games that came out after the PS3 did (I believe Sakura Wars suffered in part due to the lack of PS2 BC by the time it came out), stuff like FFvsXIII, Last Guardian, etc.
And with PSN games, there's a bunch of them that really don't need a next-gen port but are still worth selling. I mean, what's a PS4 version of Braid going to look like? It's still going to be Braid. Same with Rayman Origins, any 2D game, and even many simpler or stylized 3D games. Think of all those emulated Sega classics, or even PSN games from smaller devs that just aren't going to get patches or HD ports.
It also helps fill in the gaps of the launch lineup.
And with PSN games, there's a bunch of them that really don't need a next-gen port but are still worth selling. I mean, what's a PS4 version of Braid going to look like? It's still going to be Braid. Same with Rayman Origins, any 2D game, and even many simpler or stylized 3D games. Think of all those emulated Sega classics, or even PSN games from smaller devs that just aren't going to get patches or HD ports.
It also helps fill in the gaps of the launch lineup.
That's categorically untrue.
* why spend silicon budget on bc when you can spend that on more CUs, ram, CPU, cooling, or merely making the console cheaper?
* Adding hardware bc makes for a more convoluted architecture [additional busses, memory controllers, another cooler etc etc.. Adding to nose, heat, power]
* devs would have mentioned having a cell in their kit. Or at least hearing about it. We got nothing.
* they just bought gaikai. If this isn't a flag for ps3 games coming from the cloud, when it's ready, I don't know what is. And if it's coming why not save hundreds of millions (which psn will not make back) and spend a billion on infrastructure, that has to be built anyways?
There are more reasons, but we are just going round in circles.
some time for sure, but what could happen is Sony and other 3rd party tool vendors do this on their end. So all these tools that Sony has been providing to devs could be automatically be made to work, with a lot less time required at the end. Same thing with UE3 for instance and other tools.
Not true. Otherwise we wouldn't have greatest hits collections.
R10Neymarfan
Member
Gaikai is possible, but imagine all that lag and compression! Not the mention the ISP bill for many people when they go over their cap.
This too, if the ULTRAHD Collections are well made, like ICO and SoTC.
But throwing some SPEs beside the AMD CPU would be cool. Maybe they could handle OS in the background on PS4 games or something.
Or do it like the PS1 chips in the PS2, didnt NaughtyDog use the PS1 chips in Jak and Daxter on PS2? Things like that are cool.
I would think the AMD Bulldozer or Jaguar CPU would be able to emulate the 3.2GHZ PPE core, as linux tests showed its slower then a G5 1.6 GHZ on unoptimized code running just on the PPE, not the full Cell with PPE and SPEs.
http://www.primatelabs.com/blog/2007/05/playstation-3-performance-may-2007/
H_Prestige
Banned
Exactly. It's not worth leaving out now.
The ps3 situation was different, because Sony essentially had two choices: cut ps2 BC to save the ps3, or leave it in have the ps3 die a quiet death. The correct choice was obvious, even though it sucked.
indeed, it wont happen, as simple as that. Anyone who thinks they will include back compatibility, is just deluding themselves.
I think, my overall point is that there are good arguments for the inclusion of BC, and good arguments for its omission.
It'll be interesting to see the conclusion.
The only question that needs to be asked is will BC be profitable over the long-run? If yes, add it. If no, scrap it. That's all it takes for an executive to approve BC. Us Gaffers can only speculate on the profitability of BC. Since all we can speculate on are a bunch of unknowns, all speculation is categorically wrong. The only thing that can be done is to back up your position with evidence and hope people support your position.
Honestly, I don't think we know enough about Gaikai to make those assumptions and just because a developer hasn't mentioned Cell in their kit makes your point invalid since we can't assume we have every bit of information about Orbis. However, we do have a patent that supports the possibility of BC, which does make BC a valid possibility.
Your first two points are valid, however and will affect what I was saying in my first paragraph. Including the technology into the PS4 can create complications that delays the launch, increases costs, increase the rate of failure...etc. Those are all valid and realistic possibilities. BC is the wildcard in the PS4. It can go either way I think. Although, admittedly I'm biased because of course I would love to see it in the next PlayStation.
oversitting
Banned
they can't render ps3 graphics without ps3s. Unless sony wants to run servers with millions of PS3s then streaming would not work. This would cost a lot of money.
Or they can stream pre ported games sony can actually run in a traditional server to be streamed. But why do this when then can just port for ps4.
Streaming isn't going to solve BC.
Or they can stream pre ported games sony can actually run in a traditional server to be streamed. But why do this when then can just port for ps4.
Streaming isn't going to solve BC.
What I want to see is how well the PS4 does Planetside 2. We know it's coming to it, and it could be one of the few times a AAA title launches with a new console. That title alone is probably going to dictate a rather significant HDD/SSD, just like Everquest Next most likely being released for it as well.
Betrayer of hope
Banned
I find it really amusing to see people being shocked at sony including the cell for their next generation hardware.
Let me give you a few reasons.
the operating system Runs on the cell. That includes security as well. If it weren't for botched attempt at crypto by sony engineers the ps3 would have been the sole system to be hack free this generation.
Playstation network, home and the whole network system is coded to the cell itself.
That includes Playstation network games
That's just the digital systems. All these stuff that required so much manpower and effort to create since 2006 depends upon a single processor.
That's not even counting retail games.
Sony including the cell for the ps4 means 3 simple things.
One not spend huge R&D for security and O/S redesigns.
Two carry a huge digital ecosystem for psn subscribers and gamers themselves.
Three Allow developers both first parties and third parties to use existing mature tech code to create new generation ps4 games.
No need to reinvent the wheel all over again.
And finally. Perhaps most importantly cost. the cost to retool everything from scratch is a million times more expensive than redesigning the cell with a few tweaks and using in their brand new hardware. Oh and they dont have to pay anyone to use the cell
Let me give you a few reasons.
the operating system Runs on the cell. That includes security as well. If it weren't for botched attempt at crypto by sony engineers the ps3 would have been the sole system to be hack free this generation.
Playstation network, home and the whole network system is coded to the cell itself.
That includes Playstation network games
That's just the digital systems. All these stuff that required so much manpower and effort to create since 2006 depends upon a single processor.
That's not even counting retail games.
Sony including the cell for the ps4 means 3 simple things.
One not spend huge R&D for security and O/S redesigns.
Two carry a huge digital ecosystem for psn subscribers and gamers themselves.
Three Allow developers both first parties and third parties to use existing mature tech code to create new generation ps4 games.
No need to reinvent the wheel all over again.
And finally. Perhaps most importantly cost. the cost to retool everything from scratch is a million times more expensive than redesigning the cell with a few tweaks and using in their brand new hardware. Oh and they dont have to pay anyone to use the cell
With all the PSN DD and + going on, Sony would be crazy not to include BC. They will have it. In my PS3 folder I have 69 games from PSN. That is only PS3 and does not include other formats.
They'd fucking better have BC because i'm not buying a 2nd PS3 to keep when this one goes to the grave just to ensure I can still play PS3 content.
They will have BC. Too much PSN content to ignore. What are they going to do for + members? Not dish out anything for the PS4? They have to offer PS3 titles to fill the void until there's enough PS4 titles.
Well, the initial idea was that the CELL family of processors would have evolved all these last years, so the PS4 would have used a (or lots of) modern CELL.
But outside PS3, Cell is dead.
I wouldnt count on PS4 having BC.
Wasn't the main hope for BC that this supposed "extra compute chip" rumoured for Orbis is in fact Cell? I think that's the only way we'll see hardware BC to be honest.
Imo it wouldnt have to be a full Cell, just SPUs. For PS3 games the main CPU would kick in and emulate the PPE. Though that is x86 emulating PPC. Dont know how hard this would be...
I wouldn't count on Plus returning on PS4. The idea itself is flawed, if you hand out games for free your customers buy less games. And that is where the money is made. I expect PS4 won't have BC at launch but it will receive some Gaikai treatment afterwards to stream the full PS3 catalogue.
But with PS+ they get a steady revenue + hardcore people might still get lauch titiles. They dont give out week onld games on +. Even low sub MMOs like FFXI made major cash for Square.
James Sawyer Ford
Gold Member
There's nothing flawed about the idea, because not every game is guaranteed to appear on Plus, secondly it basically is similar to Netflix in that it monetizes older content that otherwise would just be sold on the used market in a less convenient form.
If you're a big fan of series X, then you're going to get it within the first year. Plus content is generally more than two years old. And by that time, the used market dictates that those game prices are $10 or less.
I like your username paired with this post.
paradise_circus
Member
despite home's gamengine and the other games, none of your mentioned infrastuctures are build for a special type of cpu.
in fact the the psn store for the ps3 would possible much smoother for generic x86 or arm processors, because html 5 ist pretty much optimized for this kind of cpu architectures.
Bojanglez
The Amiga Brotherhood
Also they brought it to Vita relatively quickly, so it is not as if the lack of new games at launch would be an issue. PS+ is also not just about giving away games, you get discounts on games, the cloud storage and auto-downloads, I would guess that they might bring some new services/advantages for it too depending on what they do with PSN on the PS4.
If Sony is going to do BC at all this is the only logical way (based on what we have heard):
Bare bones model with no BC (is compatible with BC Accessory)
"Deluxe model" with BC console attachment (see patent)
BC console attachment sold separately (as an accessory)
Regardless I really cannot understand why people get rid of their old consoles and then bitch about BC. Just keep the damn thing. You own it. How hard is it to switch AV inputs? Gah...
Bare bones model with no BC (is compatible with BC Accessory)
"Deluxe model" with BC console attachment (see patent)
BC console attachment sold separately (as an accessory)
Regardless I really cannot understand why people get rid of their old consoles and then bitch about BC. Just keep the damn thing. You own it. How hard is it to switch AV inputs? Gah...
How does a x86 CPU that runs at 1.6ghz emulate the cell if it runs at 3.2Ghz? I know that the CPU can be several times more more powerful. But isn't it like on PC that despite if you have a quad core CPU at 1.6ghz it runs the games worse than a 3.2Ghz dual core CPU?
H_Prestige
Banned
If Apple released a new ipad that wasn't compatible with any existing app, and then told people they could just keep their old ipad, I think people would be seriously pissed.
Durango uses the same CPU as Orbis, and the 360 CPU is just three of those 3.2ghz PPE's duct taped together. I find it hard to believe that MS would choose a CPU that has no way of running Xenon code, unless they also plan on plugging in the entire Xenon in Durango.
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