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Digital Foundry: Neo GPU are point-for-point a match for RX 480

Macrotus

Member
Sorry if this has been discussed yet, but can we expect the neo to run games at 1080p/60fps and perhaps some better effects etc ?

I've read better fps and resolution when you compare the same games on standard PS4 and NEO in a Japanese article which was an interview with Andrew House.

http://av.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/series/rt/1005343.html
ちょっとだけ画質があがります。あとは、フレームレートが上がる、もしくは安定するという範囲です。

He also hints about how the prices of the standard PS4 and NEO are going to be different.
--ということは、まだ価格は開示できないと思いますが、ノーマル版とハイエンド版では、ある程度の価格差ができる、ということですね? そしてPS4世代のビジネスルールに則れば、ハイエンド版の価格も「当初から利益を見込める」ものになりますか?

ハウス:はい、両者ではすこしですがしっかりと差がつきます。今はこういう言い方しかできないのですが……。「そのハイエンドの価値観が反映されている価格設定にはしたい」と思っています。
 
I'm not "trying" to be an insider. I'm using science as an example of what to expect. A 290X is a good approximation for baseline performance in Scorpio before architectural efficiencies and direct to hardware programming. Here's the Witcher 3 running in 4K on a 290X at medium settings. Average framerate is 30 FPS:

witcher-bench-4k-m.jpg


As for Neo, it should be able to do 4K as well, but clever sacrifices will be made to achieve said goal. Finally, I believe both machines will use dynamic resolutions. But to be 100- I would much rather both Sony and MS aim for 1080p 60 FPS with a good layer of temporal AA/edge tesselation like the one in Uncharted 4 for an extremely clean image; and use the extra power to crank the effects to ultra settings.

That graph shows it to be clearly unplayable

average 30 fps does not mean sustained 30 fps, that graph shows drop into the teens for framerate, unacceptable

You need to average a lot more than 30 fps to get a game to be a locked 30 fps

that graph is propably not the best analogy. the big gap between avg and min framerate (compaed to the titanX bars for example) implies that here is some kind of bandwidth problem going on. and a badly parallelized DX11 titel is maybe not the best representation for coming games using the old console versions as base spec.
 

mrklaw

MrArseFace
I got my wish, sorta. I think 12GB minimum might be assured based on the way things are looking right now. I got better than I hoped with the over 320GB/s of memory bandwidth announcement. a more advanced cpu (possibly Zen) is looking like it really may happen when all is said and done, and we have confirmation on the 6tflop GPU. Now the question becomes, can Microsoft actually sell something like this in late 2017 for a good enough price? I think they almost certainly can.

I think you're being a bit too optimistic about zen. It'll take up too much die space and they need as much as possible for the GPU. Also the compatibility with Xbox one means a similar jaguar CPU would be enough
 
He also hints about how the prices of the standard PS4 and NEO are going to be different.

Does he hint at the notion that the prices are going to be different, or in what manner they're going to be different? I guess what I'm asking is, what exactly is he saying?
 

Renekton

Member
What the Cell have to do with using tweaked versions of off-the-shelf parts from AMD? That is exactly what the current PS4 is. Virtually no risk involved here.
In this situation the small cost increase in cooling is easily worth it from a PR / Marking POV, imo.
Jaguar+GCN real world performance / thermal may curve very poorly past a certain clockspeed, so designers do not want to cross a threshold for diminishing gains. PS3 had a nasty TDP up to 200W and Sony does not want to repeat the ordeal.

Personally I don't see the importance of matching the Scorpio's power, especially if Scorpio is still using the weak Jaguar CPU. Neo only needs to be in the ballpark.

This makes me wonder what GPU the Scorpio is using, it's supposedly a few teraflops better. RX 490? Higher clocked 480?
Probably full Polaris (or custom APU equivalent).

I don't think it is Vega (490) since it requires HBM2.
 
I've read better fps and resolution when you compare the same games on standard PS4 and NEO in a Japanese article which was an interview with Andrew House.

http://av.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/series/rt/1005343.html


He also hints about how the prices of the standard PS4 and NEO are going to be different.
I'd like to hear a better translation than what Google managed, but I get the impression they'll drop PS4 to $300 around the launch of PSVR, then quietly launch the Neo at GDC next year for $500, available within a month of announcement. That'll give them both good differentiation between the base and premium PlayStations, and plenty of budget to go toe-to-toe power-wise with what they now know MS will be launching later that year.

That way they pick up a bunch of budget-minded sales this holiday and give an extra nudge to anyone considering PS4 for PSVR. GDC may seem like an odd time to announce a new console, but only the really geeky folks will be paying attention then, and they're the only ones likely to be interested in a $500 console in the first place, and it's not like they have much else to spend their gaming budget on during that time of year. When MS launch their $500 box six months later for Holiday 2017, Neo will have already grabbed the attention of the hardcore, while PS4 is being cut again to $275 or whatever, which is what most holiday shoppers will be looking for anyway.

That'd be my plan, at least. Polaris/Zen should be ready for Sony by next spring, and it sounds like to go fast, all they need do is figure out a way to cool it. The original PS3 had a 380W power supply…
 

Macrotus

Member
Does he hint at the notion that the prices are going to be different, or in what manner they're going to be different? I guess what I'm asking is, what exactly is he saying?

He mention about it here.
ハウス:はい、両者ではすこしですがしっかりと差がつきます。今はこういう言い方しかできないのですが……。「そのハイエンドの価値観が反映されている価格設定 にはしたい」と思っています。

Translation: Yes, there will be a little difference in price. At this moment all I can say is, "we want the price to reflect the additional high-end value/experience (which neo provides)".
 

Macrotus

Member
I'd like to hear a better translation than what Google managed, but I get the impression they'll drop PS4 to $300 around the launch of PSVR, then quietly launch the Neo at GDC next year for $500, available within a month of announcement.

He says its a small difference, so I'm guess a 50 to $100 difference between the two.
 
Also, I've said it before...but even at $499 I'd probably buy it IF Microsoft allows me to also use it as a PC. Could totally be what steam machines weren't. At $499, for that power, and a win10 device, I think it'd really have a lot of value.

I fully agree. If Microsoft manages to enable dual booting in Xbox or Windows 10 mode for the Xbox One or the Scorpio then both machines will fly off the shelves. I would probably buy both.
 

AmyS

Member
I'd like to hear a better translation than what Google managed, but I get the impression they'll drop PS4 to $300 around the launch of PSVR, then quietly launch the Neo at GDC next year for $500, available within a month of announcement. That'll give them both good differentiation between the base and premium PlayStations, and plenty of budget to go toe-to-toe power-wise with what they now know MS will be launching later that year.

That way they pick up a bunch of budget-minded sales this holiday and give an extra nudge to anyone considering PS4 for PSVR. GDC may seem like an odd time to announce a new console, but only the really geeky folks will be paying attention then, and they're the only ones likely to be interested in a $500 console in the first place, and it's not like they have much else to spend their gaming budget on during that time of year. When MS launch their $500 box six months later for Holiday 2017, Neo will have already grabbed the attention of the hardcore, while PS4 is being cut again to $275 or whatever, which is what most holiday shoppers will be looking for anyway.

That'd be my plan, at least. Polaris/Zen should be ready for Sony by next spring, and it sounds like to go fast, all they need do is figure out a way to cool it. The original PS3 had a 380W power supply…

PS4 will be $299 by then and Neo will be $399. No way Neo is $500.

Neo isn't getting Zen, but the same CPU in PS4, but upclocked from 1.6 GHz to 2.1 GHz. The most they'd do is up the clockspeed a bit more, not put in a new CPU.
 
This makes me wonder what GPU the Scorpio is using, it's supposedly a few teraflops better. RX 490? Higher clocked 480?

I'll bet you it's the 480 as well, just at a higher clock. It seems like it'll be clocked around 1260-1300mhz like the base PC model. The Neo could still change their design and make the cooling better to bring up the power though. We'll see.

Right now "sources" are saying the desktop 480 can be OC'd to 1500mhz+ on the reference cards. Not confirmed mind you, but if true it would mean the Desktop 480 could do 7Tflops+.
 

Kuosi

Member
Sorry if this has been discussed yet, but can we expect the neo to run games at 1080p/60fps and perhaps some better effects etc ?

If Neo really runs on the same cpu with just highly higher clock, then I doubt the cpu intensive games like GTA V, Witcher 3, bloodborne/dark souls3 would run on 60fps as going from 30fps to 60fps almost doubles the cpu demand.
 

geordiemp

Member
I'll bet you it's the 480 as well, just at a higher clock. It seems like it'll be clocked around 1260-1300mhz like the base PC model. The Neo could still change their design and make the cooling better to bring up the power though. We'll see.

Right now "sources" are saying the desktop 480 can be OC'd to 1500mhz+ on the reference cards. Not confirmed mind you, but if true it would mean the Desktop 480 could do 7Tflops+.

There is that new kinect cooler that MS was rumoured to be using as well - coolchip

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahgnVrULqUs

Maybe its just a 480 clocked high with a coolchip cooler. Sony could do that now in a bigger box.
 
Any suggestions or feasibility that Sony will bump up the NEO to achieve closer parity with the Scorpio?

Just an educated guess but if the Neo's GPU is indeed the RX480 then it is theoretically possible to raise the clockspeed of the GPU and come closer to the 5.5 Tflops of the PC card. That is assuming that there is any thermal and power headroom for such a thing, which might not be very likely.
 

Hesemonni

Banned
I hope NEO uses a SATA3 interface.
I'm not lying when when I say that's one of the of things I look forward to the most in these new consoles: to REALLY benefit from SSD if you so choose. And I'll be super bummed if this is not the case.
 
PSVR experience needs Neo.

BTW Eurogamer just posted another article about Neo releasing this year.

PSVR does not require Neo and Sony is going to need to stress that. If they launch both at the same time people will assume that Neo is required for PSVR which would undercut their sales

I saw the Eurogamer article and I still don't think it will happen. I think that developers will ship games that can take advantage of Neo this year, but the Neo will launch in the spring.
 

ethomaz

Banned
PSVR does not require Neo and Sony is going to need to stress that. If they launch both at the same time people will assume that Neo is required for PSVR which would undercut their sales

I saw the Eurogamer article and I still don't think it will happen. I think that developers will ship games that can take advantage of Neo this year, but the Neo will launch in the spring.
Sony want you to buy Neo.

While PS4 will run PSVR fine it won't be the VR experience Sony wants to sell you.

If you want PSVR you will buy Neo early or late.

Neo is definitively this year... next year is non-sense and bad business.
 
He says its a small difference, so I'm guess a 50 to $100 difference between the two.
Here's what Google came up with…

? - That is, but I think that still the price can not be disclosed, in the normal version and the high-end version, if Nottore to some extent it is the price difference, it is that and PS4 generation of business rules, the price of high-end version also happens to be "expected to benefit from the very beginning?"

House: Yes, in both a little but sticks firmly difference. Now I can only such words, but .... I think that "I want to on the pricing for its high-end values are reflected."
To me, it sounded like the interviewer was asking if Neo would be profitable at launch — like PS4 was — and House's reply was that both were/are a little profitable, but the main idea is to have the price of Neo reflect the idea that it's a premium experience. To me, that would indicate a fairly significant price difference between the two. Also, I don't see much point in leaving PS4 on the market at all if you can get something twice the speed for the cost of an extra game or two. You'd need to be pretty damned stingy to not just spring for Neo with only a $50-$100 difference between them.


Neo seems very affordable on paper. Possibly $399-449
  • Same GDDR5 memory clocked higher
  • Cut-down, underclocked Polaris 10
  • Same Jaguar cores clocked slightly higher
  • Other components the same with further cost reductions
Much like other PC builders, I think Sony actually have a fair number of options available to them. Osiris indicated they were initially looking at $400 and $500 options, and the $500 model would have a better CPU. Later, he indicated that Sony had adjusted their plans and the $500 model was now the lesser of two models being considered, implying there was also a $600(?) model now under consideration. However, while that third, >$500 model was hinted at, it was also implied that there was virtually no chance that would be the one they went with.

I don't see why switching to Zen would be as problematic as some seem to think. It's not like they'd be switching back to Cell. Moving from Jaguar to Zen should be more akin to moving from i5 to i7.


PSVR experience needs Neo.
Why you lyin'? ;p

Sony want you to buy Neo.
I don't think it makes much difference to Sony whether you buy PS4 or Neo, because they both put you in exactly the same ecosystem, which is the entire point; having something to offer those simply looking for affordable gaming, and also having something to offer those looking for something a little more cutting edge.

I don't think Sony will push Neo much at all; it's not really intended for the mass market. I think they'll continue to push the option that offers the lowest hurdle to their garden, which will be the $300 PS4. The Neo is just a response to, "So, there's nothing as powerful as Scorpio?" but most users won't even ask about that stuff. They'll just want the $300 device that plays Spider-Man and God of War. If you want to spend $500 to get the very best? Well, Sony's still got you covered there too. Hell, if controversy develops, they can have side-by-side demo stations to show both how PS4 isn't getting shafted and exactly what Neo offers you for the up-charge.

Neo is definitively this year... next year is non-sense and bad business.
Why is next year either of those things? =/

Personally, I think launching this year would be bad business, because it definitely would give the (entirely false) impression that you need Neo to get a good experience from PSVR. It would be far better to simply launch PSVR alongside PS4 as planned, and let the combination speak for itself. The impressions of PS4+PSVR have been overwhelmingly positive. The only potential stumbling block is the resolution, and most people get over that very quickly, and more to the point, Neo won't be able to do anything to increase the resolution. At best, games will go from 120 reprojected to 120 native, and I think most users will be hard pressed to tell the difference.

Launching this year puts them in the position of "trying" to pull a $100-$200 bait-and-switch on potential PSVR buyers, and further limits the tech that Neo will have access to. PS4 is riding high, and folks are already excited for what PS4+PSVR can do. Launching next year avoids distracting from what they've already got going on this holiday, and it puts them in a better position to match Scorpio point for point. I see tons of disadvantages to launching this year, but I'm not really seeing any advantages at all. Can you fill me in? <3
 

thelastword

Banned
Well it's consistent with what many level-headed people have been saying about NEO. When the final specs are confirmed we can then discuss it, but the specs we've been going by is not written in stone, it was never finalized anyway.
 

THE:MILKMAN

Member
Interview with Jim Ryan about PS4 Neo.
Look from the sixth minute (Sorry it's in French).

His response about the rumor of 2 TFLOPS difference with Scorpio is curious.^^

http://www.jeuxvideo.com/videos/reportages/506714/jim-ryan-sony-il-n-y-aura-aucun-jeu-exclusif-a-la-ps4-neo-e3-2016.htm

Sorry for my English "Google translation" ...

I can't see or hear what he says.....What did he say about the rumoured 2 TFLOP difference? Also what was he laughing about at the end? He doesn't seem worried about much here.
 

wotter

Member
What does he say?
He basically calls out the journalist for repeating rumors and adding to all the speculation and suggests they should do the conversation again when the technical specifications for both Scorpio and Neo are known/available. The interviewer then presses one and asks 'but what if it (2tf difference) is really true', to which Jim starts laughing mysteriously.
 

Proelite

Member
He basically calls out the journalist for adding to all the speculation and suggests they should do the conversation again when the technical specifications for both Scorpio and Neo are known/available. The interviewer then presses one and asks 'but what if it (2tf difference) is really true, to which Jim starts laughing mysteriously.

Blue pill.
5.5 teraflops.

U hear it first.

from OsirisBlack like always.
$599
 

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
Even if its likely true and NEO is weaker, nobody is expecting otherwise if Neo is launching this year and Scorpio next. Especially since they are not trying to make such a big difference with PS4 spec wise when NEO is not considered a 'new platform'.
 

DjRare

Neo Member
&#9679; JV.com:
How will you handle the fact that the PS4 Neo has 2 TFLOPS less than the Scorpio? Knowing that it would reverse the current situation of power difference.

&#9679; J Ryan:
You talk about facts based on rumors. When we announce the specifics of Neo and we know the actual characteristics of the Scorpio, then we can talk.

&#9679; JV.com:
But if that were true?

&#9679; J Ryan:
Hahahaaaaa Hahahaaaaa. ..

&#9679; JV.com:
OK...

&#9679; J Ryan:
Hahahaaaaa. ..

(Google Translation. ..)
 

THE:MILKMAN

Member
I translated a comment under the video using google translate that was referring to the 2TF question:

Curious would be right if that comment is referring to/aimed at Microsoft's boast of "The most powerful console ever"?

That wouldn't really make sense though if Neo is this year......but for the laugh at the end.
 

STEaMkb

Member
In regard to the 2 TFLOP power difference, I hear him answer:

Jim Ryan: Well you know, with respect, you use the word fact a little [early?] ... feeding rumors that ... are speculative in their nature ... once we have confirmed ... PlayStation Neo ... more about Scorpio ... in more detail
 
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