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PoliGAF 2017 |OT4| The leaks are coming from inside the white house

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V

VendettaRed07

Member
I want to point out that the one cohesive idea that trump proposed with healthcare at all was competition across state lines

That isn't what this does and should be pointed out more often. That's what conservatives say they want but they aren't even attempting it here.
 
T

TestOfTide

Banned
B-Dubs said:
That depends entirely on what their priorities as a voter are.
Click to expand...

You can tell from the goddamn description that at the end of the day this voter cares about his healthcare not being fucked with more than anything else and he is, according to the description, visibly upset to point that Don Lemon has to ask him if he's ok, all because this voter is very aware of what the GOP might do to his healthcare.

Like yes I'm sure he bought into some Trump rhetoric, possibly even some of the racist stuff, and definitely bought into some antiHillary rhetoric, but I guarantee you he is not going to be happy with the GOP if they go through with Trumpcare.

It's gonna be Bush Jr levels of disproval among the GOP if they go through with this healthcare bill, which is why you have GOP Senators that are not willing to sign onto this political suicide.
 
B

Box of Kittens

Banned
I would like to think we as a community should demand more of our sources than an unverified Twitter user who retweets the likes of Claude Taylor and Seth Abramson.

whyamihere said:
Okay, so, away from conspiracy theories:

I've been sort of fascinated with the conservative intellectual response to Trumpcare because it resembles almost completely anti-anti-Trumpism.

The defenses aren't really of Trumpcare, because it's bad, but almost all "yeah, but the ACA". Either that the ACA hasn't increased life expectancy or decreased infant mortality, or that it's not perfect, and that it didn't stop the opioid epidemic and that INSURANCE ISN'T CARE THIS IS ABOUT ACCESS. Or my favorite, that Actually, health care was fine pre-ACA.

I'm sort of astounded there are no actual defenses of what a conservative health care program should look like, just attack on the ACA's problems, unfair or not.

Oh also that we have to stop it before single payer.

EDIT: My actual favorite is How Dare You Talk About How Many People May Die From Trumpcare When So Many Died From Obamacare!!!!!!!!!
Click to expand...

Yeah, I've noticed similar things as well. I'm personally fond of the "insurance is supposed to mean a hedge against unlikely events not a pooling of risk so people aren't really losing insurance" that I've seen in some NeverTrump conservative circles.
 
K

kirblar

Member
VendettaRed07 said:
I want to point out that the one cohesive idea that trump proposed with healthcare at all was competition across state lines

That isn't what this does and should be pointed out more often. That's what conservatives say they want but they aren't even attempting it here.
Click to expand...
The decent ideas are generally coming out of the non-insane libertarian sphere, and they have basically 0 power within the party aside from the Kochs nowadays.
 
B

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
TestOfTide said:
You can tell from the goddamn description that at the end of the day this voter cares about his healthcare not being fucked with more than anything else and he is, according to the description, visibly upset to point that Don Lemon has to ask him if he's ok, all because this voter is very aware of what the GOP might do to his healthcare.

Like yes I'm sure he bought into some Trump rhetoric, possibly even some of the racist stuff, and definitely bought into some antiHillary rhetoric, but I guarantee you he is not going to be happy with the GOP if they go through with Trumpcare.

It's gonna be Bush Jr levels of disproval among the GOP if they go through with this healthcare bill, which is why you have GOP Senators that are not willing to sign onto this political suicide.
Click to expand...

I'm just saying, he might be a single issue voter and his issue might be guns or abortion. We've seen this play out before, where someone is interviewed and they say how much the ACA helps them then they go vote for the GOP despite that.

It'll hurt a lot of people, but a lot of the people it hurts aren't going to vote against the GOP because it's not their one issue.
 
T

TestOfTide

Banned
kirblar said:
The decent ideas are generally coming out of the non-insane libertarian sphere, and they have basically 0 power within the party aside from the Kochs nowadays.
Click to expand...

Well, we DID have the non-insane conservative idea. It's called Romneycare, the thing that ironically Romney tried to run away from when he ran for president in 2012 because Obamacare is heavily inspired by Romneycare.

B-Dubs said:
I'm just saying, he might be a single issue voter and his issue might be guns or abortion. We've seen this play out before, where someone is interviewed and they say how much the ACA helps them then they go vote for the GOP despite that.

It'll hurt a lot of people, but a lot of the people it hurts aren't going to vote against the GOP because it's not their one issue.
Click to expand...

With literally any other subject I would agree with you, but I think you underestimate how much people don't like having their healthcare fucked with. It's such a hot button issue that most of the initial dislike of the ACA was people seeing that it was a big healthcare reform bill and instinctively going "oh god what the fuck are they doing to my healthcare coverage" even before they find out about the details. Now imagine how people will react to a healthcare bill that by most measures will make healthcare coverage much worse and much more expensive and will even lead to millions losing health insurance.
 
M

Mizerman

Member
Spoiled Milk said:
Schadenfreude is sick. Don't deprive someone of basic human dignity just because they got tricked by politicians who are all liars.
Click to expand...

Is it really a trick when the one party has been consistent on getting rid of a health care bill for years now just to replace it with a glorified tax cut disguised as a shoddy health care bill?
 
P

Pixieking

Banned
It depends who you're paying attention to, though... How many times did Trump say he'd fix Obamacare? How many times did he say he'd lower premiums (and let's be kind here, and just narrow it to the debates)? How many times did he say he wouldn't kill medicaid/medicare?

If you only focused on Trump during the campaign, and your single-issue was healthcare, you were tricked.

Now, should these people have been tricked? No. They should've known better, and they should've paid more attention to what Hillary was saying. But people are naive, and they do sometimes just trust someone wholeheartedly, when they maybe shouldn't.
 
P

Pixieking

Banned
Spoiled Milk said:
Yes. They got tricked by people they trusted. Have some compassion. Not all of us can be wonks and read the finer points of how risk pools work or what essential benefits are.
Click to expand...

The media should be hammered for not explaining how this works... Fox News, the tabloid papers, Breitbart, as well as CNN and the NYT. It is the media's job to inform, not to push partisan narratives, or both sides narratives, or "take him seriously, not literally" narratives. It is a major failing (of both the US election and Brexit, tbh) that the media consistently failed to explain fundamental policy in terms that non-wonks could care about and understand.
 
V

VendettaRed07

Member
kirblar said:
The decent ideas are generally coming out of the non-insane libertarian sphere, and they have basically 0 power within the party aside from the Kochs nowadays.
Click to expand...
But really the most powerful current republican ran on that

Part of me feels like if we are running democrats in more conservative areas, if the party really does refuse to go full on Labour.. focusing on the GOP completely backing off of that and not attempting to make healthcare companies more competitive to bring premiums down, instead of "omg how could they repeal the ACA !", wouldn't be a bad idea
 
S

Spoiled Milk

Banned
PLOT TWIST. it looks like they dragged this guy from out of their bag of Trump voters they have on call because they already asked him why he voted for Trump back in January if he was so reliant on Obama's healthcare.

Bob Ruscoe said:
I did what I thought was correct for the overall good of the country. I think economic strength cures a lot of things. People working, making decent money, that certainly helps out. I'd rather not need the subsidies, I'd rather be working.

If I had voted for what I thought was strictly best for me, I would have voted for her. Because the healthcare plan gives us peace of mind.
Click to expand...

John F. Kennedy would be proud.

Anyway dignity is important for a lot of people. Also, sacrifice. So he did get tricked, just not by the healthcare promises from Trump but instead by the conservatives who told him that a good economy and a working attitude would give him the security and dignity he wants.
 
A

Aaron Strife

Banned
Spoiled Milk said:
PLOT TWIST. it looks like they dragged this guy from out of their bag of Trump voters they have on call because they already asked him why he voted for Trump back in January if he was so reliant on Obama's healthcare.



John F. Kennedy would be proud.

Anyway dignity is important for a lot of people. Also, sacrifice. So he did get tricked, just not by the healthcare promises from Trump but instead by the conservatives who told him that a good economy and a working attitude would give him the security and dignity he wants.
Click to expand...
Did it never occur to this asshole that a bill causing him to lose his healthcare would probably also cause millions and millions of other people to lose their healthcare too? That would certainly throw a wrench into the economy.

The only person who could have possibly believed Trump had a plan to strengthen the economy is a willing idiot.
 
S

Spoiled Milk

Banned
Aaron Strife said:
Did it never occur to this asshole that a bill causing him to lose his healthcare would probably also cause millions and millions of other people to lose their healthcare too? That would certainly throw a wrench into the economy.

The only person who could have possibly believed Trump had a plan to strengthen the economy is a willing idiot.
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For me the real crime here is the lie that the country and its economy are in dire financial straits. It's pernicious because it convinces people like this guy that the sick need to give up their physical health for the good of the country. It takes advantage of fundamentally good people. For... tax cuts.
 
C

Chumley

Banned
Spoiled Milk said:
Schadenfreude is sick. Don't deprive someone of basic human dignity just because they got tricked by politicians who are all liars.
Click to expand...

They didn't get tricked.

Republicans wouldn't lift a finger to help Democrats if the shoe was on the other foot. They'd be spitting on our graves and laughing at our suffering. How many times do liberals have to get bit in the ass by being compassionate to the right to realize it doesn't help?

The reason they elected Trump was, above all, to inflict pain on liberals. We are dealing with monstrous people.
 
N

neurosisxeno

Member
I still think it's hilarious the party that complained the ACA was "rammed through" are now quite literally ramming through a bill that they wrote behind closed doors and want to vote on within 2 weeks of revealing it. The ACA was also open for amendments (for better or worse) and Democrats allowed Republicans to add amendments and contribute, where as the BCRA is basically being presented and voted on as is with no real input from Democrats. The hypocrisy of the GOP is truly inspiring.
 
UberTag

UberTag

Member
neurosisxeno said:
I still think it's hilarious the party that complained the ACA was "rammed through" are now quite literally ramming through a bill that they wrote behind closed doors and want to vote on within 2 weeks of revealing it. The ACA was also open for amendments (for better or worse) and Democrats allowed Republicans to add amendments and contribute, where as the BCRA is basically being presented and voted on as is with no real input from Democrats. The hypocrisy of the GOP is truly inspiring.
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It's a shame they'll never be called on it by the media or held accountable to it by the voters because when they are eventually voted out for it they'll resort to their tried and true bag of tricks, lies and projections while the Dems are asked to extend olive branches and to reach across the aisle.

It would be nice if they instead replied "you said the exact same thing about Obama/Hillary and then did THIS much worse thing when in power and you have the gall to make this claim now, go fuck yourself". That should be the de facto response.

There should be long-term consequences for mortgaging one's credibility.
 
P

Poodlestrike

Banned
Yeah, it's time to throw Republicans under the (metaphorical) bus. At this point, they either know what they're getting into, regardless of what they tell themselves or anyone else. No more compromise, no more compassion. They don't deserve it. We can try to make their lives better in our spare time but priority number one has to be protecting the rest of the country from the mindless cruelty of the Republican voting base.
 
A

aspiegamer

Member
The Trump "red line" in Syria is nauseating. The Syrian and Russian air forces both bomb civilian targets indiscriminately on a daily basis and scores of children die every month, but, meh, that doesn't bring in enough of a show in the media to make it worth standing up to, so fuck it, let's wait for something symbolic that kills a relatively small number of people compared to stuff that's happening every single day. Also, we should get along better with Russia, because reasons!
 
P

Plinko

Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
PBY said:
This is literally the only thing to focus on in 2018 and 2020
https://apnews.com/amp/3e6a0bbd48dd4588ba25dd2db0dee2b8

Trump and the GOP are the party of the wealthy; compare that to the Dems who want to help the poor and middle class.

The Dems need easily marketable, contrasting policies. Healthcare for ALL. College for ALL. 15 minimum wage.
Click to expand...

I think combine this with the fact that Trump won't really be creating jobs.
 
P

PBY

Banned
Plinko said:
I think combine this with the fact that Trump won't really be creating jobs.
Click to expand...

I mean, I'd LOVE if the Dems proposed something along the lines of a new deal 2020 focused on clean energy and environmental measures, particularly focused in deep red areas that have been abandoned by changing industry, e.g., coal, manufacturing, etc.

Shit, I read somewhere, can't remember where, the idea to move some federal agencies out of DC into these areas. Would be cool to see the EPA in WV for example. Sounds crazy, but could work.
 
D

Daria

Member
PBY said:
This is literally the only thing to focus on in 2018 and 2020
https://apnews.com/amp/3e6a0bbd48dd4588ba25dd2db0dee2b8

Trump and the GOP are the party of the wealthy; compare that to the Dems who want to help the poor and middle class.

The Dems need easily marketable, contrasting policies. Healthcare for ALL. College for ALL. 15 minimum wage.
Click to expand...

offering things for free is giving R's more annunciation to pin D's to immigrants, poor folk, POC, etc. The entire demographic that drove Trump's base to the polls. R's will run ads about how your taxes are going towards helping poor people with no job stay alive. Half of the red states don't care about college, they want real jobs. Have dems run on ideas of creating actual well-paying, middle-class jobs that can provide for a family instead of a $15 minimum wage (that they already promised to do) that's going to get trampled with talk that it's economic suicide - https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/seattles-minimum-wage-hike-may-have-gone-too-far/
 
D

Diablos

Member
Seems like Collins is most concerned about Medicaid. If Mitch pumps more money into it maybe he can win her back? She's not taking much about premiums for private plans and costs of employer insurance etc
 
P

PBY

Banned
Daria said:
offering things for free is giving R's more annunciation to pin D's to immigrants, poor folk, POC, etc. The entire demographic that drove Trump's base to the polls. R's will run ads about how your taxes are going towards helping poor people with no job stay alive. Half of the red states don't care about college, they want real jobs. Have dems run on ideas of creating actual well-paying, middle-class jobs that can provide for a family instead of a $15 minimum wage (that they already promised to do) that's going to get trampled with talk that it's economic suicide - https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/seattles-minimum-wage-hike-may-have-gone-too-far/
Click to expand...

If you're scared to give people shit that they need and want you've already lost. The GOP isn't scared to kick 22,000,000 off insurance, Dems can't be scared to create a broad new economic plan.

Dems need to think big and bold. Also that study isn't gospel, there are countervailing studies.
 
B

balladofwindfishes

Member
Diablos said:
Seems like Collins is most concerned about Medicaid. If Mitch pumps more money into it maybe he can win her back? She's not taking much about premiums for private plans and costs of employer insurance etc
Click to expand...

Short of remaking the entire bill, there will always be Medicaid cuts in the bill.

Her statement on the bill leaves very little room for her to walk back.
 
G

Grizzle_Dat

Banned
VendettaRed07 said:
I want to point out that the one cohesive idea that trump proposed with healthcare at all was competition across state lines

That isn't what this does and should be pointed out more often. That's what conservatives say they want but they aren't even attempting it here.
Click to expand...

They can't propose any new legislation here because of reconciliation. the only thing they can do with 50 votes is alter the $ in the existing law as long as it does not cost any additional $.

Any type of new legislation must be passed with 60 votes
 
C

Crocodile

Member
Well my senator's mailbox is full so hopefully everybody else is giving him the heat I intended to do this morning!

Fuck the GOP and this shitty bill!

Kid Kamikaze10 said:
Gotta throw out there...

If AHCA gets through, medicare/health care for all can't possibly work due to no funding source right?

So why offer it?
Click to expand...

I mean if we get DDD, what's stopping us from just putting all the taxes back and what not? These GOP changes are reversible, just that they will do a lot of damage in the meantime!
 
I

IggyChooChoo

Member
This $200 billion in savings is what worries me now. Seems trivially easy for McConnell to use some portion of that to get yeses from people like Capito, Murkowski, Johnson, or Collins.

There was one piece of good news in the CBO report for GOP Senate leaders seeking to pass the bill. The $321 billion in net government savings the CBO found the legislation would result in means that Republican leaders have $200 billion or so to play with and still hit the $119 billion savings target of the House bill that makes their legislation eligible for reconciliation.

That may provide the opportunity for leadership to figuratively buy off the votes from skeptical moderates, by funneling the extra savings into substance abuse programs or other requests moderates have made to blunt the effects of the Medicaid cuts.
Click to expand...

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/fivepoints/senate-repeal-bill-cbo-score-politics
 
B

Blader

Member
Ok, I've been on vacation since Friday morning and the only piece of AHCA news I've picked up since then was the 22 million CBO number released yesterday + Heller's opposition to the bill. Have any other GOP pseudo-swingy senators (Portman, Capito, Collins, Murkowski, Cassidy) come out for or against it? Has anyone from the Cruz/Lee/Johnson/Paul brain trust inevitably folded yet?
 
B

balladofwindfishes

Member
Blader said:
Ok, I've been on vacation since Friday morning and the only piece of AHCA news I've picked up since then was the 22 million CBO number released yesterday + Heller's opposition to the bill. Have any other GOP pseudo-swingy senators (Portman, Capito, Collins, Murkowski, Cassidy) come out for or against it? Has anyone from the Cruz/Lee/Johnson/Paul brain trust inevitably folded yet?
Click to expand...

Collins has come out as a hard no. The others either haven't said anything, or were wishy washy

Nobody has caved yet, Johnson and Paul seem to be moving more into a hard no, instead of lean no. Nobody is answering Paul's calls to make a deal, either, apparently. Johnson's only objection is the bill being rushed, he'd vote for it if there was more time.
 
G

Greigor The Fellhand

Member
Tried calling my senator Rob Portman today to tell him to vote NO on the BRCA.

his DC line is full

His Cbus line is either busy or off the hook

his Cincinnati line is either busy or off the hook

His cleveland line is full

his toledo line is full

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And I will keep trying every hour today. Call your senators, tell them to vote against the BRCA.
 
D

Diablos

Member
Plinko said:
As we discussed yesterday, the payroll tax will kill this dead in the water when people find out that's what single payer actually is.
Click to expand...
Honestly tho employers can then stop paying for health insurance and that in and of itself SHOULD lead to a considerable to significant boost in take home pay... gotta sell it right which Dems never do
 
P

PBY

Banned
Dems can't start off negotiating against themselves. We need to actually decide what the hell we actually think works best, politics aside. Then we can start to think messaging and compromise.
 
F

fredrancour

Member
Kid Kamikaze10 said:
Gotta throw out there...

If AHCA gets through, medicare/health care for all can't possibly work due to no funding source right?

So why offer it?
Click to expand...
An entirely new health care bill to create universal health care will feature its own funding solutions and cutting the ACA taxes does nothing to affect that future bills ability to do so. Why would it?
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
PBY said:
Dems can't start off negotiating against themselves. We need to actually decide what the hell we actually think works best, politics aside. Then we can start to think messaging and compromise.
Click to expand...

"we need to decide what we think works best" and "politics aside" are two mutually exclusive statements.
 
B

Blader

Member
balladofwindfishes said:
Collins has come out as a hard no. The others either haven't said anything, or were wishy washy

Nobody has caved yet, Johnson and Paul seem to be moving more into a hard no, instead of lean no. Nobody is answering Paul's calls to make a deal, either, apparently. Johnson's only objection is the bill being rushed, he'd vote for it if there was more time.
Click to expand...

Thanks. Interesting... Heller sounded pretty forcefully against it, hard to believe he could walk back that statement.

Paul is the only one of those four I can trust to continue toeing his line, but at the same time, I don't want to put my faith on killing this bill into trusting Rand Paul...
 
G

GrapeApes

Member
Trump lawyer's firm steered millions in donations to family members, files show
Telemarketers for the nonprofit, Christian Advocates Serving Evangelism (Case), were instructed in contracts signed by Sekulow to urge people who pleaded poverty or said they were out of work to dig deep for a “sacrificial gift”.

“I can certainly understand how that would make it difficult for you to share a gift like that right now,” they told retirees who said they were on fixed incomes and had “no extra money” – before asking if they could spare “even $20 within the next three weeks”.

In addition to using tens of millions of dollars in donations to pay Sekulow, his wife, his sons, his brother, his sister-in-law, his niece and nephew, and their firms, Case has also been used to provide a series of unusual loans and property deals to the Sekulow family.
Click to expand...
In another deal, Sekulow’s wife Pam, Case’s treasurer and secretary, bought a “retreat property” in North Carolina from Case in 1998 with help from a $245,000 loan out of the nonprofit’s funds. The Case board, controlled by her family, then decided to forgive $217,742 of what Pam owed and count this as compensation, the previously unreported accounts say.
Click to expand...
Case separately loaned Jay Sekulow $209,968 in 1999. Over the following years, the Case board voted to forgive $211,305 of the loan and interest payments – more than the original amount Sekulow had borrowed – an
Click to expand...
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jun/27/trump-lawyer-jay-sekulow-donations

Trump's probably pretty proud of his lawyer. This shows he's smart just like the President.
 
D

dramatis

Member
Greigor The Fellhand said:
Tried calling my senator Rob Portman today to tell him to vote NO on the BHCA.

his DC line is full

His Cbus line is either busy or off the hook

his Cincinnati line is either busy or off the hook

His cleveland line is full

his toledo line is full

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And I will keep trying every hour today. Call your senators, tell them to vote against the BHCA.
Click to expand...
It's the BRCA.

I'm not being a stickler, but want to make sure you aren't saying the wrong descriptor into the phone.

I think his offices should be smart enough to know though.
 
B

balladofwindfishes

Member
Blader said:
Thanks. Interesting... Heller sounded pretty forcefully against it, hard to believe he could walk back that statement.

Paul is the only one of those four I can trust to continue toeing his line, but at the same time, I don't want to put my faith on killing this bill into trusting Rand Paul...
Click to expand...

If this bill fails, it won't be because of one vote. Once it looks like it's sure to fail, more and more people will jump in the nos.

I think we're almost at that point. The momentum since yesterday has been towards the nos. As it stands, at the minimum, it doesn't look like a vote this week is happening (Collins + Heller + Johnson kills the bill). They get Johnson back just by waiting, but who else would they loose after a week long recess? Who knows at this point.

Of course, some kind of grand bargain could be found where medicaid gets 13 dollars in spare change added to it and everyone flocks to the bill, but it won't work like the house did, because rapid development of this bill isn't really possible with CBO estimates being needed at every step. So it might not be that easy, especially since every change just brings new numbers from the CBO into the spotlight.
 
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