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Lime · Sep 17, 2013

Be aware that this thread contains a spoiler. You have been warned.

Here's the entire video: http://youtu.be/9RuNivXp1_w

From Eurogamer's Tom Bramwell: (I've included much of the quotes in order to make sure that posters don't misinterpret or misconstrue the scene or the argument being made in the article. There's more at the link, so remember to click it.)

The US government's use of "enhanced interrogation techniques" is the basis of a mission called "By the Book" where Trevor Phillips, one of GTA5's three playable characters, tortures a man suspected by the GTA world's government agencies of harbouring secrets about terrorists. Players must choose between various instruments of torture and press buttons and rotate sticks when prompted in order to use them on the suspect. If the suspect's heart stops, it can be restarted so the questioning can continue. Meanwhile, one of the game's two other playable characters, Michael, races around Los Santos following any leads gained during the interrogation.

This is a series best known to people who don't play it as the one where you sleep with a prostitute and then murder her to get your money back, so the news that you can now waterboard people and rotate analogue sticks to wrench out teeth with a pair of pliers is unlikely to leave a positive impression. The fact you have to use the full range of torture techniques to get a higher score is unlikely to improve anyone's mood either.

Even to people who know the series intimately, it is likely to hit hard. GTA is a game full of violence, of course, but it is mostly slapstick, impersonal, cartoon violence - floppy-limbed pedestrians flying over your bonnet, cars flipping through intersections, or tanks and helicopters exploding. You're always slightly zoomed out from the impact of your actions by the lack of close-ups and the way everything resets to normal a few minutes later. It's very unusual to be hurting a single person in isolation over a prolonged period, which is why the torture scene is a different and unpleasant experience.

The context provides a little clarity, at least. Trevor, Michael and Franklin are caught in the crossfire of a high-stakes inter-agency war, and in a typical GTA conceit they are being forced to do the bidding of corrupt officials in order to remain at liberty. The torture routine is itself coerced, then - the guys are doing it because they have no choice.

Torture was always going to be a hard thing to justify in a GTA game, because GTA is chaotic at the best of times - a rollercoaster of mood swings and explosive diversions that it would be mind-f***ing to try to take seriously as a whole. Narratively, though, I'm not sure the scene would serve any useful purpose even in a more linear game like a corridor shooter or action-adventure.

It has a lot of impact, but there's not enough meaning behind those zaps, cracks and screams. Michael disapproves from a distance, but Trevor's character isn't fazed in the slightest. When you first meet him, he is already killing people without remorse over the slightest grievance and has a disregard for human life that is spectacular even by GTA's standards, so when he walks into a warehouse and has to torture someone, he just shrugs and gets on with it.

[...]In GTA5, however, it has no lasting effect on Trevor, while the victim is quickly and completely forgotten about, which just leaves the player to suffer through and remember the whole unsettling experience.

Unless they break the habit of a lifetime and start speaking out about their work in the coming weeks, however, the writers' true motivation will remain shrouded in mystery, because I don't think this sequence is particularly effective without some commentary. As a component of the story, it feels unnecessary - at best it's a numbing full stop on the end of a sentence that was already unpleasant reading, while at worst it just falls flat. As a statement about something the writers believe, it struggles to get beyond that context.

Finally, before people jump on the "but it's a game where you run down people, have sex with prostitutes, and kill them afterwards", remember that context and execution matter a lot. There is a difference between running down pedestrians in a nonsensical manner (chosen by the player him- or herself) and the game design actively forcing you to torture a virtual/fictional character. This is a case of not only the context being unjustified according to Tom Bramwell, but also the player having to actually do the button prompts.

Spider_Jerusalem · Sep 17, 2013

Actually I didn't feel disturbed or guilty at all. Maybe I'm a monster.

Or maybe it's just a game, darn

The_Darkest_Red · Sep 17, 2013

Torture scenes in movies make me uncomfortable so it'll probably be the same here. I don't really have a problem with it being in the game, I'm just a little squeamish with that kind of stuff.

Despera · Sep 17, 2013

The tooth pulling bit was pretty damn gnarly. And also the huge wrench to the kneecap.

But hey, it's just a game. As long as there's no playable rape scene, it's all good.

kazebyaka · Sep 17, 2013

I thought it was fun and cool.

RobFox64tm · Sep 17, 2013

It wouldn't be GTA if it didn't do SOMETHING controversial, right?

Phawx · Sep 17, 2013

It's fair for him to say he felt the scene was flat and added nothing to the story. Though he does say some subjective things like it would affect people universally.

"which just leaves the player to suffer through and remember the whole unsettling experience."

I don't think this is universal.

TheSpoiler · Sep 17, 2013

Even to people who know the series intimately, it is likely to hit hard. GTA is a game full of violence, of course, but it is mostly slapstick, impersonal, cartoon violence - floppy-limbed pedestrians flying over your bonnet, cars flipping through intersections, or tanks and helicopters exploding. You're always slightly zoomed out from the impact of your actions by the lack of close-ups and the way everything resets to normal a few minutes later. It's very unusual to be hurting a single person in isolation over a prolonged period, which is why the torture scene is a different and unpleasant experience.

That's just it though: GTA allows you to see your destruction, and while it doesn't egg you on that much, it certainly does create an "enjoyable" scene.

Especially the newer games, where ragdoll physics are almost too good and it creates some pretty rough moments even from hitting someone with a car.

Most of the GTA players in 4 pushed people down the stairs and watched them bounce around with bone-crunching sound effects. It's all not realistic, but it kinda is, as a whole. Pulling this particular part out is silly when the majority of the game allows you to do the equivalent.

DidntKnowJack · Sep 17, 2013

Well hey. Anything to get a high score!

Point being, it's hard to take any article seriously when they cannot even grasp the basics of video gaming.

No, mainstream press. games aren't really like Pacman anymore.

Bedameister · Sep 17, 2013

Thought this thread would be about boobs lol

poopninjamvc3mk · Sep 17, 2013

Lol controversial my ass. See it in movies/TV shows everyday but all of sudden when you're pressing a button during the scene, it's controversial.

strafer · Sep 17, 2013

Another GTA. Another controversy.

What else is new.

pestul · Sep 17, 2013

Sounds like a Jack Bauer moment.. sweet!

TheSpoiler · Sep 17, 2013

poopninjamvc3mk said:
Lol controversial my ass. See it in movies/TV shows everyday but all of sudden when you're pressing a button during the scene, it's controversial.

I've read books with incomparable imagery. But I'm sure those reads got their shit during the heyday.

poopninjamvc3mk · Sep 17, 2013

I also love how you post this a day late.

DigitalOp · Sep 17, 2013

It forces you to partake in a disturbing act and see the ramifications for yourself.. Its going to make people uncomfortable... I have yet to see how I will react to it..

But I still believe its commentary. Torturing some electronic digital person makes people upset... And yet this is something the government fully supports in practice. A "necessary" evil per say..

I see it as a very metaphysical dialogue with what should accepted and what's not.

Lambtron · Sep 17, 2013

poopninjamvc3mk said:
Lol controversial my ass. See it in movies/TV shows everyday but all of sudden when you're pressing a button during the scene, it's controversial.

From the sounds of it you can't skip the scene in the game, that's my biggest beef with it. I don't like it in movies or TV shows either.

dubq · Sep 17, 2013

Righteous indignation incoming.

terrisus · Sep 17, 2013

Lime said:
GTA is a game full of violence, of course, but it is mostly slapstick, impersonal, cartoon violence - floppy-limbed pedestrians flying over your bonnet, cars flipping through intersections, or tanks and helicopters exploding. You're always slightly zoomed out from the impact of your actions by the lack of close-ups and the way everything resets to normal a few minutes later.

So previously people had been desensitized to violence, and ignored it as long as they didn't actually have to see it/be the one causing it, and that was perfectly fine? Got it.

ced · Sep 17, 2013

Here we fucking go again.

Stone Ocean · Sep 17, 2013

strafer said:
Another GTA. Another controversy.

What else is new.

Well, it's not controversy about sexism for once.

That's refreshing.

XANDER CAGE · Sep 17, 2013

The writing/presentation in that mission doesn't quite carry the message. It's clearly supposed to be an anti-torture moment, but it swings too heavily between being incredibly serious and incredibly flippant. Although I did laugh at "you're one of the invisible people now." Overall it still feels tonally out of place and a little exploitative.

That being said, I admire them for trying. Funnily enough, the best part of the whole mission isn't even gameplay, it's the post-mission checklist that tells you all the awful things you did, ending with the checked-off "It's legal!"

PsychoSoldier · Sep 17, 2013

I'd have to play it in context obviously, but it doesn't sound like they pay off something that powerful as well as they should.

I mean, if you're going to put a scene like that in there, making it a throwaway that doesn't really do much to add to the characterization or the narrative seems a bit gross.

Lunchbox · Sep 17, 2013

this and the gamespot review crying about misogyny made me realize this media will never get out of its shell. it will always be a kids toy. and the second someone like rockstar tries something they will get this kind of response

did that gamespot review call Ben afleck misogynisitic when he said our firm doesn't do business with bitches in boiler room or like every episode of madmen? how about the torture porns like saw an final destination. but gta woah bro, can't do that, need mushroom kingdom in my video games

Lime · Sep 17, 2013

DidntKnowJack said:
Well hey. Anything to get a high score!

Point being, it's hard to take any article seriously when they cannot even grasp the basics of video gaming.

The problem is that attributing a high score to the act of torture implicitly instrumentalizes the act of torture. As a designer, you're basically rewarding the player with arbitrary value afforded by the game system for doing morally indefensible acts.

No, mainstream press. games aren't really like Pacman anymore.

It's exactly why games aren't like Pacman anymore (i.e. they are able to depict and convey complex and controversial issues in contemporary society) that some people criticize the manner in which the games that choose to depict and convey very sensitive issues.

Not Spaceghost · Sep 17, 2013

I didn't think it was awful, I thought it was neat.

It would be awful if the game was forcing you to do something that was actually torturous like drawing magic from enemies in FF8. That is legitimate torture, and it will haunt me to the end of my days.

daninthemix · Sep 17, 2013

Despera said:
The tooth pulling bit was pretty damn gnarly. And also the huge wrench to the kneecap.

But hey, it's just a game. As long as there's no playable rape scene, it's all good.

As it's just a game, why would it matter if there was a playable rape scene, then?

Interesting where people draw their lines.

TheSpoiler · Sep 17, 2013

Lime said:
The problem is that attributing a high score to the act of torture implicitly instrumentalizes the act of torture. As a designer, you're basically rewarding the player with arbitrary value afforded by the game system.

It's exactly why games aren't like Pacman anymore (i.e. they are able to depict and convey complex and controversial issues in contemporary society) that some people criticize the manner in which the games that choose to depict and convey very sensitive issues.

You are rewarded for being a dick in the game. Running over people gives you money, and you can recoup your cost from a hooker by beating her and gaining an extra load of dosh. This is really the point of the game in general, to commit criminal acts, whether they be outright murder or now torture.

UrbanRats · Sep 17, 2013

The high score seems like typical R* satire to be honest.
Whether you like it or not it's another thing though.

The scene sounds indeed disturbing (i'd be shocked if it wasn't, to be honest) and i totally see why it's controversial.

However i'm looking forward to play it for myself.

On a related note, as the graphics of the series got better (GTAIV and even RDR) i saw my bodycount decreasing considerably, when playing outside of missions, i think that's an interesting fact.

Lime · Sep 17, 2013

Lunchbox said:
this and the gamespot review crying about misogyny made me realize this media will never get out of its shell. it will always be a kids toy.

No, it'll continue being immature activity as long as its consumers like you cannot stand critical scrutiny that tons of other media already have gone through (and still are to this day).

Even fucking "kids toys" have been analyzed and criticized for decades, if not centuries. But somehow video games are exempt from and shouldn't be analyzed and contextualized. Give me a fucking break and join the adult world.

TheSpoiler said:
You are rewarded for being a dick in the game. Running over people gives you money, and you can recoup your cost from a hooker by beating her and gaining an extra load of dosh. This is really the point of the game in general, to commit criminal acts, whether they be outright murder or now torture.

Sure thing, but one could argue that there's a difference between the game design being sufficiently emergent to allow for a player to do whatever he or she wants (in terms of killing pedestrians or not), versus a linear, scripted torture sequence.

$h@d0w · Sep 17, 2013

Manhunt 2 is way more "distressing" than this scene in my opinion.

Psycho_Mantis · Sep 17, 2013

Despera said:
The tooth pulling bit was pretty damn gnarly. And also the huge wrench to the kneecap.

But hey, it's just a game. As long as there's no playable rape scene, it's all good.

Don't mean to go OT but killing someone is ok but raping them is a no even though in both circumstances you can say it is a game. Isn't murder far worse than rape (in terms of punishments)?

Bony Manifesto · Sep 17, 2013

Lime said:
The problem is that attributing a high score to the act of torture implicitly instrumentalizes the act of torture. As a designer, you're basically rewarding the player with arbitrary value afforded by the game system for doing morally indefensible acts.

But this is Grand Theft Auto! Literally every mission has you committing morally indefensible acts. That's kind of the whole point of the game.

kulapik · Sep 17, 2013

Why did my post get deleted? Just asking.

UrbanRats · Sep 17, 2013

Pyscho_Mantis said:
Don't mean to go OT but killing someone is ok but raping them is a no even though in both circumstances you can say it is a game. Isn't murder far worse than rape (in terms of punishments)?

You can read ALL about it in the Hotline Miami 2 discussion, though i'm sure everything will get repeated here.

I should get out of the thread, lest i get spoilered more stuff though (btw, thanks Lime for not using spoilery stuff in the title, i appreciate that, even though i entered anyway.)

Gonzo The Great · Sep 17, 2013

kazebyaka said:
I thought it was fun and cool.

Do you work for Rockstar?

kazebyaka said:
Characters in Gta 5 are despicable psychopaths and the good thing, hat they always aknowledge it and love it. True maniacs. Deep too and the story makes it all even better. Don't worry people.

They are a horrible human beings, but amazing characters

kazebyaka said:
Sure there are some good and quality games, but not one game comes close to the quality of gta 5. Not even near. It's like uncharted 2 of open world games.

kazebyaka said:
Embrace the ultimate video game. Do it.

kazebyaka said:
Take GTA SA, put a 3 person twist on it, nice story, funny and memorable characters, amazing graphics and big detailed world with polished gameplay. You are not gonna be disappointed. Nobody will, it's not GTA IV.

kazebyaka said:
10's are 100% justified. This game is better than any other game in existence. In scale, quality and grandiosity. If a game can deserve 10's, it's GTA V.

XANDER CAGE · Sep 17, 2013

Bony Manifesto said:
But this is Grand Theft Auto! Literally every mission has you committing morally indefensible acts. That's kind of the whole point of the game.

That's another odd thing that makes the mission stick out. Why shove such a blatant teachable moment into something as over-the-top and irreverent as GTAV? It's incongruous with the very nature of the game. Some of the satire on the radio and whatnot is the same. There are tons of ads making fun of games like Call of Duty for being all about killing for fun. Uh, GTAV? What are you about, then? Cooking?

Really minor gripes in the grand scheme of things, but the game isn't quite as clever as it would like to think.

Hermii · Sep 17, 2013

I think the public will be fine with this. After all it doesnt involve dry sex.

I think torture scenes in 24 and other shows/ movies are uncomfortable especially because it not effective in real life at other things than getting confessions or getting unreliable information and those scenes really are there for propaganda purposes (24).

DrLazy · Sep 17, 2013

I wasn't going to buy it. Now I'm probably not going to bother renting it either. This kinda thing is not what I do for entertainment. The stuff they did in Manhunt was pretty gross. Reminded me of rape-porn.

Not Spaceghost · Sep 17, 2013

XANDER CAGE said:
That's another odd thing that makes the mission stick out. Why shove such a blatant teachable moment into something as over-the-top and irreverent as GTAV? It's incongruous with the very nature of the game. Some of the satire on the radio and whatnot is the same. There are tons of ads making fun of games like Call of Duty for being all about killing for fun. Uh, GTAV? What are you about, then? Cooking?

Really minor gripes in the grand scheme of things, but the game isn't quite as clever as it would like to think.

I thought it was pretty obvious meta humor, kinda like how Michael talks about how much he hates video games.

UrbanRats · Sep 17, 2013

Gonzo The Great said:
Do you work for Rockstar?

Being excited for a game means you're a PR shill? Is this 4Chan?

WrenchNinja · Sep 17, 2013

This story sounds dumb as hell. Why would the government want a bunch of crooks to do this or trust a bunch of crooks to do this?

TouchMyBox · Sep 17, 2013

Lunchbox said:
this and the gamespot review crying about misogyny made me realize this media will never get out of its shell. it will always be a kids toy. and the second someone like rockstar tries something they will get this kind of response

did that gamespot review call Ben afleck misogynisitic when he said our firm doesn't do business with bitches in boiler room or like every episode of madmen? how about the torture porns like saw an final destination. but gta woah bro, can't do that, need mushroom kingdom in my video games

What are you doing on a video game discussion board if people bringing up points of discussion about video games bothers you so much? The Eurogamer article isn't saying "BAN THIS SICK FILTH!", it's asking a question, a question that's worth being asked.

And you seriously haven't heard of people being grossed out by torture porn films?

kazebyaka · Sep 17, 2013

Crewnh said:
This story sounds dumb as hell. Why would the government want a bunch of crooks to do this or trust a bunch of crooks to do this?

FiB guys are pieces of shit too, they are not at all better than main characters

Gonzo The Great said:
Do you work for Rockstar?

I just love the game, what's so strange about that?

XANDER CAGE · Sep 17, 2013

Spaceghost said:
I thought it was pretty obvious meta humor, kinda like how Michael talks about how much he hates video games.

That line is different, and much funnier. So is his son, who keeps on yelling crappy rape jokes over his mic to other players. That stuff is great meta humor. So is the line in the radio ad for the COD parody "and a secret space level we won't talk about until the game is out!"

But still, some of it falls a little flat.

Scoot2005 · Sep 17, 2013

Despera said:
The tooth pulling bit was pretty damn gnarly. And also the huge wrench to the kneecap.

But hey, it's just a game. As long as there's no playable rape scene, it's all good.

Looked like a wrench to the balls to me. There was blood in that area afterwords....

blitzcloud · Sep 17, 2013

let's pretend jack bauer never existed.

HamPster PamPster · Sep 17, 2013

When I was a teen I though the MGS torture scene was pretty profound / intense. I'm sure new players will feel the same way about GTAV

These days it just kind of looks silly to me (MGS also). Games trying to hard to be impactful because they can't do it otherwise

WrenchNinja · Sep 17, 2013

kazebyaka said:
FiB guys are pieces of shit too, they are not at all better than main characters

That doesn't explain why they wouldnt do it themselves instead of trusting a bunch of psychos to do it for them

But I guess I shouldn't be surprised by bad writing

eot · Sep 17, 2013

Pulling out someone's teeth isn't my idea of fun in a video game, I actually think it's gross and I have no interest in playing it.

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