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[BigTnaples]

Why say goodbye to detailed itemisations? I'm not saying they should make a Horizon clone.

Not sure how to answer the established AI part, maybe a sensible chuckle.

So, you don't know what you're discussing? Got it.

 

[bitbydeath]

So, you don't know what your discussing? Got it.

Do go on.

 

[Dahaka]

Have they clarified now if they improved on MADDER?

 

[GribbleGrunger]

Oh yes I will be, but I never received a review copy so am waiting for a retail delivery and a keen postman ;-)

That's a pity. Sony should consider you an asset in my opinion.

 

[texhnolyze]

Why say goodbye to detailed itemisations? I'm not saying they should make a Horizon clone.

Not sure how to answer the established AI part, maybe a sensible chuckle.

I'm not good at explaining things, so here goes:

No game has the sheer density of moving parts that a Bethesda game has. Nobody even comes close. That's where the bugs come from. Most of them can be tracked to how the game is handling the tracking of all these objects at once.

The rest come down to typical game bugs and typical open world game bugs.

Remember, we're talking about games where every single character has an explicit inventory. It's not like a GTA game, where they randomly generate a bunch of generic NPCs who can drop items from a specific table (usually just money and a gun). In Bethesda games, these characters are:

1) wearing clothes (DO YOU KNOW HOW HARD IT IS FOR A CHARACTER IN A GAME TO WEAR CLOTHES WITHOUT CLIPPING? NOW IMAGINE EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER DOING THAT. THE COMPLEXITY ON DISPLAY IS MIND-BOGGLING)
2) carrying items they can use in the environment
3) have actual preferences for items and can loot other corpses and use that equipment
4) live in a specific location and have entire routines based around those locations
5) have basic physical needs, primarily sleep, and full day/night cycles that can be disrupted, giving the player a significant degree of freedom
6) has their own unique dialogue lines/voices/etc (not true of every NPC, see the "arrow to the knee" guards). About half the characters can carry a conversation of some kind.
7) has different personality values that determine not just whether they'll flee, attack, be friendly, but WHEN they will do all of these things as well.
8) will behave differently based on injuries sustained.

A game like GTA just summons one of its many randomly-generated NPCs, who can play from a set of dialogue that any NPC can access, who only has one or two items that can drop upon death, and... that's it. They only have three states of mind: neutral, panic, and aggression. GTA's AI is vastly simpler, the amount of moving parts is far less. Bethesda's is far more advanced.

A lot of this has to avoid traditional scripting too--they don't make these heavily curated sequences where everything can be polished to perfection.

 

[vivekTO]

Interesting. IIRC, they've been saying that the open world streaming engine is built for 30fps. I wonder if Kojima Productions helped them experiment with higher framerate for Death Stranding.

I don't think they said engine is built for 30 FPS but rather the game itself built around 30 FPS, I don't think they can provide a performance mode if the engine can't scale more than 30 FPS.

 

[Guymelef]

I don't think they said engine is built for 30 FPS but rather the game itself built around 30 FPS, I don't think they can provide a performance mode if the engine can't scale more than 30 FPS.

Yep, Shadowfall was unlocked, pretty sure engine is ready for +30FPS by default.

 

[miller.skippins]

Proof that talent and budget matter more than hardware these days.

isn't that always that way?

Look at what Sony Santa Monica, Naughty Dog and Guerilla did with the PS3 hardware (God of war 3 and ascension, UC1-3, Last of us, KZ2-3 respectively....

KZ2 still looked after all these years..

 

[onemanasylum]

I'm not good at explaining things, so here goes:

Your first mistake is quoting DocSeuss...

 

[Orbis]

I remember a few years ago just after PS4 launched thinking, "man, I bet mid-late gen games are going to look fucking incredible". This actually looks and performs better than what I had in mind.

 

[ISee]

After the unlocked modes in TR, Sniper 4 and FF15, I'm not expecting too much from the upcoming performance mode. I think we'll have to live with 30 fps games on consoles forever.
That said a part of me is actually looking forward to play this on the pro with downsampling enabled but I'd still prefer a stable (with some drops to the low 50s, here and there) 60fps mode with dynamic 900p-1080p resolution + good temporal AA.
One can dream, I guess.

 

[nOoblet16]

Man everything about this is great except...The water. I can't get over how there are barely any splashes or ripples, it bothers me because everything else seems nice hah

 

[nelsonroyale]

Interacting with everything and tracking everything is why those games are as sandbox as they are.
There are no other games like it.
They are also moddable as fuck, which is really great advantage of gamebryo.

Of course i would also want new engine for Bethesda games, but without severely limiting the modding scene and persistence.

Sure and that is pretty impressive. I remember interacting with as much or more stuff, in more interesting ways, in the Ultima games though over 20 years ago. Now I understand the 3d modelling with somewhat janky physics brings a lot more complexity in sumulation. Personally, I find a lot of that interaction in Fallout 4 doesn't lead anywhere interesting. I do have a fairly strong aversion to Bethesda games, aside from Skyrim for some reason.

 

[onemanasylum]

Man everything about this is great except...The water. I can't get over how there are barely any splashes or ripples, it bothers me because everything else seems nice hah

Guerilla can't swim confirmed.

 

[vivekTO]

Man everything about this is great except...The water. I can't get over how there are barely any splashes or ripples, it bothers me because everything else seems nice hah

Transparency budget!! i think. the vegetation in game should have taken some toll on the engine.

Your first mistake is quoting DocSeuss...

Guerilla can't swim confirmed.

Why are you always in turbo charged reply aggressive mode ?? why??

 

[kyser73]

Wow, some parts of this thread read like there's a $399 salt lick on the market...

 

[JetSetRadio]

Can you turn HDR on/off in-game?

 

[nOoblet16]

Oh yes I will be, but I never received a review copy so am waiting for a retail delivery and a keen postman ;-)

Simplygames.
You'll probably have a better chance with them than anyone else

 

[nOoblet16]

Transparency budget!! i think. the vegetation in game should have taken some toll on the engine.

But you won't have grass when you have water (usually) so it shouldn't matter that much...plus what about just using shader for a decent amount of ripples.

Also I don't think I've played a single GG game where the water actually looked good. Yea I remember those waves in KZ3 but I also remember them being very pointed and opaque hah.

 

[onemanasylum]

Transparency budget!! i think. the vegetation in game should have taken some toll on the engine.





Why are you always in turbo charged reply aggressive mode ?? why??

Nothing I said was aggressive, and joking guerilla can;t swim was aggressive how?....do you own a mirror, because your post was aggressive.

 

[vivekTO]

But you won't have grass when you have water (usually) so it shouldn't matter that much...plus what about just using shader for a decent amount of ripples.

Also I don't think I've played a single GG game where the water actually looked good. Yea I remember those waves in KZ3 but I also remember them being very pointed and opaque hah.

In K:SF water is good, although not in abundant but it has better textures!!

Nothing I said was aggressive, and joking guerilla can;t swim was aggressive how?....do you own a mirror, because your post was aggressive.

See.. you could have said just joking!! but no.

 

[boneyjangles]

I can't get excited about the robot animal concept, but this might replace Uncharted 4 as the best looking game of all time.

Still, one billion times more exciting overall than Killzone.

 

[texhnolyze]

Your first mistake is quoting DocSeuss...

Is he wrong? If so, care to explain?

He has at least explained it to you in that thread, while you're still nowhere to be found after your post.

I'm not saying that Bethesda engine is superior. Just let them do what they do best with their unique engine. There should be limitations on what an engine could do. They've got a lot of work to do even if it's possible to build an Elder Scrolls game from Horizon engine.

 

[vivekTO]

Is he wrong? If so, care to explain?

He has at least explained it to you in that thread, while you're still nowhere to be found after your post.

I'm not saying that Bethesda engine is superior. Just let them do what they do best with their unique engine. There should be limitations on what an engine could do. They've got a lot of work to do even if it's possible to build an Elder Scrolls game from Horizon engine.

The Game Systems are unique not the engine itself, They can bring these systems to other engines as well, of course you are right there, they have to do a lot of work to implement and integrate it into a new engine!!

 

[onemanasylum]

Is he wrong? If so, care to explain?

He has at least explained it to you in that thread, while you're still nowhere to be found after your post.

I'm not saying that Bethesda engine is superior. Just let them do what they do best with their unique engine. There should be limitations on what an engine could do. They've got a lot of work to do even if it's possible to build an Elder Scrolls game from Horizon engine.

He is for numerous reasons.

Bethesda mis-managing resources on useless shit like being able to pick up every fork, move it, and the game remembering where it is, is NOT an excuse. Out of 20 million who bought skyrim how many people really care or even know about it?

Bethesda's AI is not more advanced every other game. Do you realise how complex a game like GTA's AI is with all the traffic routes, massive amount of traffivce, pedestrains, physics, etc.. Building a modern city as detailed and realistic as GTA is not to be shunned at.

Many other open world rpg's have AI with daiy routines, jobs, run inside when it rains, eat, go to sleep, travel....

Unless you have detailed knowledge of how complex each engine is, it is hogwash. Many of these games are really complex, Bethesda is not some special flower these days.

Most of the things he lists other games do, and things like being able to move every loaf of bread is resource mismanagement that should be used towards , making better animations, gameplay, pathfnding, performance etc... Things that have a far better impact.

In K:SF water is good, although not in abundant but it has better textures!!



See.. you could have said just joking!! but no.

It was obvious it was a joke....come on.

 

[coastel]

I'll get some soon but here's a couple random caps of the motion blur

That first screen is amazing. The game hasn't quite appealed to me and I'm not sure why. I think I will just buy it anyway and give it a try if not just for the eye candy.

 

[HarryKS]

Why is it that Guerilla Games has such a good handle on game engines? They're basically a relatively new studio from Holland. Is it the quality of the engineers?

 

[vivekTO]

They're basically a relatively new studio from Holland. Is it the quality of the engineers?

New?? i think they are in the buisiness from 2000.

 

[miller.skippins]

Why is it that Guerilla Games has such a good handle on game engines? They're basically a relatively new studio from Holland. Is it the quality of the engineers?

What do you mean new studio? Killzone 2&3 exist.

 

[HeelPower]

Why is it that Guerilla Games has such a good handle on game engines? They're basically a relatively new studio from Holland. Is it the quality of the engineers?

They're not new.They go way back.

Plus,apparently they've been perfecting Decima engine for a very long time.Definitely got some exceptional talent there,however.

Kojima will use this engine for Death Stranding too.

 

[Maintenance]

Why are you always in turbo charged reply aggressive mode ?? why??

Probably instinct / reflex.

 

[EASTC0AST_GH05T]

Unlocked performance in 1080p do you guys think Horizon can maintain 50 to 60fps on the PS4 Pro?

 

[c0de]

Amazing graphics and solid performance!

 

[texhnolyze]

He is for numerous reasons.

Bethesda mis-managing resources on useless shit like being able to pick up every fork, move it, and the game remembering where it is, is NOT an excuse. Out of 20 million who bought skyrim how many people really care or even know about it?

Bethesda's AI is not more advanced every other game. Do you realise how complex a game like GTA's AI is with all the traffic routes, massive amount of traffivce, pedestrains, physics, etc.. Building a modern city as detailed and realistic as GTA is not to be shunned at.

Many other open world rpg's have AI with daiy routines, jobs, run inside when it rains, eat, go to sleep, travel....

Unless you have detailed knowledge of how complex each engine is, it is hogwash. Many of these games are really complex, Bethesda is not some special flower these days.

Most of the things he lists other games do, and things like being able to move every loaf of bread is resource mismanagement that should be used towards , making better animations, gameplay, pathfnding, performance etc... Things that have a far better impact.

Apparently millions of people care. Yes, I have no knowledge of it, but my point is still stand that they shouldn't move to another engine especially of that another developer. Their engine is revolved around moddings, and it won't be possible with another engine. CDPR tried with their Witcher 3 engine but the modding capabilities are still so limited. Their AI might not also be the best, but they're vastly customizable. Just let Bethesda do what they do best. Their games are one of a kind, a unique genre. At the end of tye day, it'll be a loss for many of us gamers if they stop making them.

 

[onemanasylum]

Apparently millions of people care. Yes, I have no knowledge of it, but my point is still stand that they shouldn't move to another engine especially of that another developer. Their engine is revolved around moddings, and it won't be possible with another engine. CDPR tried with their Witcher 3 engine but the modding capabilities are still so limited. Their AI might not also be the best, but they're vastly customizable. Just let Bethesda do what they do best. Their games are one of a kind, a unique genre. At the end of tye day, it'll be a loss for many of us gamers if they stop making them.

Milions of people are not buying skyrim because they can pick up every fork and the game remembers.... Their games are not unique/one of a kind and have not been for a long time.; GTA games have massive modding communities.

 

[zoukka]

Why is it that Guerilla Games has such a good handle on game engines? They're basically a relatively new studio from Holland. Is it the quality of the engineers?

wat

They have been known to deliver great visuals for over a decade now.

 

[texhnolyze]

Milions of people are not buying skyrim because they can pick up every fork and the game remembers.... Their games are not unique/one of a kind and have not been for a long time.; GTA games have massive modding communities.

Why then, because it's open world, the lore, the story, the combat (lol), or the huge amount of quests? There's nothing compelling about Skyrim's basic features. People still play and love Skyrim despite its shortcomings because it's a one of a kind game. Picking up forks is just one small element of that uniqueness.

Alright, I think this is getting way out of topic.

 

[onemanasylum]

Why then, because it's open world, the lore, the story, the combat (lol), or the huge amount of quests? There's nothing compelling about Skyrim's basic features. People still play and love Skyrim despite its shortcomings because it's a one of a kind game. Picking up forks is just one small element of that uniqueness.

No one has forks, put away the defense shield....None of these things are unique to bethesada games. Being popular really doesn't mean anything, it is not a guaranteed sign of the best quality of anything. The games are easy,pick up and play large RPG's with exploration. That is the appeal.

 

[scoobs]

Unlocked performance in 1080p do you guys think Horizon can maintain 50 to 60fps on the PS4 Pro?

Probably not rock solid 60, the CPU is such a pile of garbage in these things they really struggle to run demanding games at high framerates.

 

[AbandonedTrolley]

Why is it that Guerilla Games has such a good handle on game engines? They're basically a relatively new studio from Holland. Is it the quality of the engineers?

Wat?

Guerrilla Games is a first-party video game developer founded in 2000 from the spin-off of Lost Boys Games, based in Amsterdam, Netherlands and is wholly owned by Sony through Sony Interactive Entertainment. It currently employs approximately 270 individuals, and is headed by managing director Hermen Hulst.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerrilla_Games

Pretty certain that GG/Naughty Dog and Sucker Punch are the tech guys when it comes to the PlayStation ICE Team

 

[bitbydeath]

I'm not good at explaining things, so here goes:

Nah, the AI is pretty bad in Skyrim, padding a list with non-ai related things doesn't help the argument either.

Characters don't hold their moods, you could kill their entire family in front of them and the next day they'll act like nothing ever happened.

I know that's a really difficult task but in a way Shadow of Mordor did do it.

I love the Elder Scrolls series but it does nothing that can't be made on a new engine.

 

[EASTC0AST_GH05T]

Probably not rock solid 60, the CPU is such a pile of garbage in these things they really struggle to run demanding games at high framerates.

I wish Sony upgraded the CPU's on the PS4 Pro's. I care about 60fps more then anything. Its one of the reasons I can return to play Mario Kart on the Wii U until this day. I will gladly sacrafice lush visuals for a smooth 60fps experience. GTA V on PC runs like a dream with 60fps.

 

[Garrett Hawke]

Unlocked performance in 1080p do you guys think Horizon can maintain 50 to 60fps on the PS4 Pro?

doubt it, i'm expecting something similar to tomb raider definitive edition tbh. 60 in certain areas, 45-55 everywhere else. closer to 30 in the extreme stress situations.

 

[Floody]

Why is it that Guerilla Games has such a good handle on game engines? They're basically a relatively new studio from Holland. Is it the quality of the engineers?

I think there location actually plays a role in why they are very technically strong studio, outside of them there's only really Crytek (for how long who knows) and DICE, not really any other massive western mainland European studio, unless you wanna throw CD Project in too (who are also no slouches), to go to so there's just a huge pool of very talented devs spread between a few studios.

 

[texhnolyze]

No one has forks, put away the defense shield....None of these things are unique to bethesada games. Being popular really doesn't mean anything, it is not a guaranteed sign of the best quality of anything. The games are easy,pick up and play large RPG's with exploration. That is the appeal.

If you'e paying attention to that post, that was actually a question, and I'm not defending it I'm actually attacking it. Skyrim is not a special game then why people are still playing to this day? Definitely not because of those things I mentioned. There are lots of other easy to pick up exploration RPGs, it's not really the reason, I believe.

 

[onemanasylum]

If you'e paying attention to that post, that was actually a question, and I'm not defending it I'm actually attacking it. Skyrim is not a special game then why people are still playing to this day? Definitely not because of those things I mentioned. There are lots of other easy to pick up exploration RPGs, it's not really the reason, I believe.

No one said anything about this, what are you even talking about now? Oblivion was the first game like it on console and the series popularity exploded, not rocket science, but TW3 hit 10 million quickly, it is no longer unique.

 

[The Salt Life]

For someone that doesn't have the pro but has a 4k tv with HDR, does the game support HDR?

Thanks!

Edit: nvm I see the thread was cleaned up from when I first read it when it was created and it was a mess, found my answer on page 2

 

[pottuvoi]

Yup, but what I meant is actually a 720p frame buffer upscaled to 1080p checkerboarded, probably basically guaranteeing 60 FPS locked. In theory?

In fact, if there's no noticeable IQ hit, I wonder why no developer tried something similar yet, afaik.

It certainly would be interesting if they would allow an optional 1080c mode.

 

[iTehDroiD]

Really liking what I am seeing here.

Regarding Witcher 3 one thing I hated about its presentation was how vegetation looked like 2d stripes even on PC. This was the biggest downgrade for me from the initial reveal. Horizon on the other hand has much better natural looking vegetation and lighting

Omg I thought I'm the only one. Thats my main reason why i prefered Dragon Age Inquisition graphics over the Witcher ones. Dragon age had proper, non 2d grass.

 

[kinggroin]

Saw the video. So glad to hear it has great performance! Doesn't look as good as The Witcher 3, at least from the limited video media, but The Witcher 3 hardly exhibits this level of performance consistency too, so yeah. Also good luck running it fluidly at 4k.

I'll have to pick up HZD soon