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DF: Nintendo NX Powered By Nvidia Tegra! Initial Spec Analysis
- Thread starter DeathSparks
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Wii U (and Wii) ended up like shit mostly because they wanted BC first, and low power draw second.
If they didn't, they could've used more modern chips, for less money, and much more performant. But Nintendo didn't want because they wanted backward compatibility first and foremost. The WiiU is the most expensive console on the market to produce because of how awkwardly it was designed.
The same is true of portable consoles, DS (which had GBA BC) and 3DS (which had DS BC). 3DS also was initially programmed to run on the old Tegra, but Nvidia couldn't deliver the performance they promised nintendo at the power draw and heat they wanted.
If this doesn't have backward compatibility, there's no reason to use older, more expensive, and less performing chips (and more power hungry). SNES, N64 and GC maybe didn't always use top of the line parts, but didn't use old more costly parts for BC reasons either. I expect NX to do the same. Maybe not the top chips, but no reason to get a power PC and a PICA GPU, seriously. Keep in mind the WiiU itself consumed 15 W or so when you don't consider the disc drive. When you think about that, it isn't hard to realize why a docked NX consuming a similar amount (10-12 W i guess) could be a a consistent leap over it, after 4 years.
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
Devs don't normally care about decoder specifics, as long as the frontend of the pipeline does not pose a bottleneck like on some uop-cache-less amd64 uarchs..
Re OoO, Denver OG did not have real OoO (its OoO was achieved at translation time), but we don't have much info on Denver2, so we don't even know if it is or is not OoO.
What we have, though, is leaks by devs saying the CPU performs sufficiently better than Jaguar, as little as that might mean.
It's MuchoMalo. He likes to, erm, hyperbolize.
McHuj
Member
GP104 has 20 SM's (128 shaders) in 314mm and GP106 has 10 SM's in 200mm.
So they're not going to be able to fit 1 SM into 75mm??
Combined with the CPU, the memory bus and other circuitry, yes, unless I'm mistaken about the X1's die size.
Or I could just, you know, but mistaken on something. I thought that the X1 had a die size of around 120mm2
McHuj
Member
I can't find anything on the die size of X1. If you have any info, I'm actually interested.
dr_rus
Member
There are density improvements in 16FF+ and they'll obviously be able to fit "even one" Pascal SM into whatever is the die size of new Tegra simply because there's already two Maxwell SMs in Tegra X1.
There are density improvements compared to 28nm, but not 20nm. And I'm assuming larger than 75mm2, obviously.
So, I have been reading some old Anandtech articles and the X1 on the shield console outperforms the Surface Pro 4 i5 on GPU tasks:
Sure, you can argue that the i5-6300U is 2 years old tech, but represents intel latest.
Even the mobile version deployed on the pixel C is pretty much on par:
Just to put into perspective the old mobile tech comments.
Sure, you can argue that the i5-6300U is 2 years old tech, but represents intel latest.
Even the mobile version deployed on the pixel C is pretty much on par:
Just to put into perspective the old mobile tech comments.
Oh sure. I was just going off the basis of the handheld wanting to be as compact as possible. At handheld levels of power usage you'd think it could be passively cooled. I don't mind an onboard fan for helping when docked but i don't want an audible hiss of any kind when used handheld
Although an onboard fan might allow for better performance handheld when plugged in.
What kind of memory bus has Tegra X1 in the Shield TV, because that one renders at 1080p? Shield tablet was also rendering at 1080p and above, with a Tegra K1. So why is the memory bus an issue here, I don't understand?
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
TK1 has a die size around 120mm^2, and that's 192 cores (i.e. one Kepler SMX) + everything else @28nm. There's no way a Maxwell SM (128 cores) would occupy 75mm^2 @20nm/16FF.
edit: this EETimes articles claims TX1 had its die size enlarged "only slightly" over TK1.
It was rendering older games and/or at lower fps/quality. This issue specifically pertains to somebody suggesting easy console ports of multiplatform games.
Given the proposed power of a Pascal based GPU and capable ARM cores (running at full blast), solely looking at that suggests that ports are somewhat feasible, until one looks at the comparative memory bandwidth of the consoles.
So this isn't to say that new games cannot be made on it, but they very much have to factor this imbalance, if they do port. For many games this deficiency could create difficulties that may not justify a port.
This aspect is the primary limiting factor I see in the suggestions that this will be perfectly capable in docked mode and why I'm saying that the power would be shackled by its mobility requirements. They may have a solution for this deficiency or they may not.
GTX 1060 is 200mm^2 with 1280 Cuda cores, that's 10 pascal SM. There is no reason they couldn't fit 2 or 3 in 75mm2... I get speculating, but don't give out false information as fact.
NX regardless if it is an X1 or the newer X1
Skittzo0413
Member
It will also look better on the handheld screen than on the Wii U, albeit on a (likely) 540p to 720p resolution screen.
X1 is a great improvement over Wii U hardware no matter how it will be used.
X2 will use finfet tech.
Mr. Wonderful
Member
Which is the wonderful thing in all of this, because the Wii U had some beautiful looking games at 720p. I would be perfectly OK maintaining Wii U graphics, and using the extra horsepower for 900-1080p in dock mode.
720p just isn't high enough resolution for a TV.
Nvidia's roadmap indicated a successor chip using Denver for a 2017(?) release. The 'X2' is definitely coming.
Signs show that it would coincide with the NX release nicely, but it's all just speculation at this point, mostly based on the 'industry leading chips' statement + dev rumour mix ups.
McHuj
Member
Reason I'm speculating around ~75mm is that I expect it to be smaller than the high end phone SOC's. A9 is ~100mm on 16FF and A9X is 147mm. I don't really expect Nintendo to go for a higher cost SOC than those.
Who confirmed that Nvidia will release the Tegra X2 this year, and right in time for the Nintendo NX?
Dude, really, all you need to do is have a quick Google around. Here's the info on Tegra/Parker: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tegra#Upcoming_releases
And a recent article about the projected reveal: http://www.pcworld.com/article/3097...neration-tegra-mobile-chip-is-on-its-way.html
*EDIT* Saw your post above
ThanksIf the Tegra X2 would be release in February 2017, would this be too late to implement the Tegra X2 into the Nintendo NX befor the Handheld goes in mass production? I mean how long can Nintendo wait for the Tegra X2?
Feasibly, Nintendo could be working with a different mobile GPU in lieu of X2 whilst they wait on manufacture of X2 to begin. We're in July. There's time yet. Just keep an ear out for now. Everything's quite up in the air.
What are the odds that Nintendo would agree to Nvidia officially announcing their partnership with Nintendo and the NX on Aug 22nd for the Tegra Next event?
I mean it wouldn't exactly spoil anything about the console itself, even without this latest leak/rumor, but would be a long overdue and much needed victory for Nvidia and the Tegra line to finally have a major gaming contract. The best place to announce that would be at the unveiling of their new chipset that many speculate will be used in some way in the NX.
Then a month later, as rumored, Nintendo could fully unveil the console itself and how it will actually work, look and all that sweet sweet goodness.
I mean it wouldn't exactly spoil anything about the console itself, even without this latest leak/rumor, but would be a long overdue and much needed victory for Nvidia and the Tegra line to finally have a major gaming contract. The best place to announce that would be at the unveiling of their new chipset that many speculate will be used in some way in the NX.
Then a month later, as rumored, Nintendo could fully unveil the console itself and how it will actually work, look and all that sweet sweet goodness.
Slim, but possible. It'd be pushed more by Nvidia than Nintendo, as Tegra X2 in NX would be a considerable 'win' for them, as it gives them a foot in the mobile gaming market they've yet to fully capitalise on. They might not directly mention Nintendo, but could insinuate a partnership. Wait and see.
This would be the best possible outcome, and it's kind of something I'm hoping for
Übermatik;211738494 said:
Yeah that's what I assumed. It wouldn't be a conventional move or announcement at all, but given how the Tegra line has strugged in the mobile sphere and Nvidia in general has fared poorly in gaming that they would be very keen to make this key partnership public.
Not actually mentioning Nintendo is also totally possible, maybe more so. I love it because it's such a pointless yet completely expected corporate move. Like anyone wouldn't know who they were talking about, even without this Eurogamer info out there, yet they'd still act all coy and silent about who exactly it was with.
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
NV went all the extra miles to get that design win. Their greatest gain from that deal is publicity and a foot in a door. Make of that what you will.
calc84maniac
Member
The fun part then would be watching some people continue to adamantly deny that Nintendo would do such a thing as use cutting-edge tech
But then, Nintendo. We know what they're like, from a PR perspective, and I doubt they'd allow another company, no matter how vital, give the first official announcement of NX hardware.
My bet is that they show off the new chip and mention a partnership for 2017 release. Basically point to Nintendo without actually saying their name.
Or maybe not, who knows. It'll be fun to watch regardless.
Thanks
No problem!
In my example that you're quoting (which again is very much a best case scenario), you're looking at a 16nm 3x SM part, which would run at speeds giving 384 Gflops in handheld mode and 614 Gflops in docked mode. If they're using a TX1 to attempt to emulate the performance of the final chip, then they'd have to clock it to 750MHz to emulate handheld performance and 1.2GHz to emulate docked performance. Both of those would require active cooling, but the 1.2GHz speed in particular is well past the TX1's intended limit (1GHz) so would require rather aggressive cooling to keep it from frying itself.
It would make the unit quite a bit thicker (as you need to fit a heatsink in there), although in theory it would be possible.
dr_rus
Member
There are density improvements on 16FF+ compared to 20SoC. And if it will be larger than TX1 them we're looking at a possible doubling of units.
I think it would be much cheaper to just use small fans in the (i suppose) tablet form that are turned off when not docked, and then turned on, alongside with the GPU, when docked. If the thing has a 7" screen it shouldn't be a problem to fit a fan in it, or even a cooling system of some sort active only on dock. It wouldn't make for the slimmest tablet, but if we consider that you have to (supposedly) attach a controller to it then it wouldn't be super slim anyway.
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
There are, but they are marginal.
http://www.tsmc.com/english/dedicatedFoundry/technology/16nm.htm
http://www.tsmc.com/english/dedicatedFoundry/technology/20nm.htm
Fractology
Member
I'm excited to be slapping in carts into modern gaming machine again. I wonder what form factor they will take. Really can't wait to see what this thing will look like! Nintendo doesn't typically get it "right" on their first iteration of new handhelds. Remember the original DS? Or the awful original GBA? It always feels kinda shitty buying into the first iteration of these machines out of excitement knowing full well that they will perfect it two versions into the future.
Kingpin Rogers
Member
Is there a possibility the X1 is just for the dev kits and the actual system launches with something like the K1?
If it is true that the dev kits use actively cooled TX1s then that would be extremely strange.
Making your dev kits much faster (never mind the significant architectural differences) than your actual shipping hardware seems like a recipe for disaster.
Imho no. If it end up being worse than X1, it's still gonna be a custom worse X1, not an older and different architecture which is going out of production in the near future. That said, considering the Devkits have an actively cooled X1, i myself expect a custom X1, hopefully with a 16nm FF production mode since it would make it consume significantly less for the same power and comparable costs (i'm not sure but i think that 16nm FF is the most common used process for dedicated GPUs now, and if it isn't, it's certainly gonna be going forward. Keep in mind this is coming out next year).
The big advantage of X2 is that is more efficient. And Nintendo surely loves their devices to be very efficient. The downside of it might be the cost.
OrbitalBeard
Member
NX. Unless Nintendo adds absolutely no improvements to the NX version, in which case, it'll look the same. It's certainly not going to look or perform worse than the Wii U game.
osiris3355
Banned
They just don't like to spend a lot of money on new tech to keep consumer costs down.
Screamapillar
Member
In order to be able to sell at a profit and be $249 or less, I imagine it'll only display in 1080p native if you dock it and play it as a console.
Portable mode, maybe have a 1080p screen on the tablet, but set games to run at 720p upscaled. Keep battery life up, framerate steady, game running smoothly. Because it won't just be running whatever game is playing, it'll be running My Nintendo, background data, updates, friend list, notifications, etc. Hopefully 8GB ram and not 4 or 6.
Either way, regardless of what Nintendo does with the Tegra X1, we're talking about a jump in Nintendo handheld gaming from 3DS all the way to Wii U 1.5 or more. Since Nintendo doesn't really like extremely expensive graphics, because it takes longer and you have to have a larger team, and many people don't appreciate it anyway, Nintendo's attitude is probably "Even in 'console' mode, with NX docked and running to the TV, how many customers would notice a leap from high-end Wii U games like Mario Kart 8 or Smash Bros?"
They are an interesting bunch.
Portable mode, maybe have a 1080p screen on the tablet, but set games to run at 720p upscaled. Keep battery life up, framerate steady, game running smoothly. Because it won't just be running whatever game is playing, it'll be running My Nintendo, background data, updates, friend list, notifications, etc. Hopefully 8GB ram and not 4 or 6.
Either way, regardless of what Nintendo does with the Tegra X1, we're talking about a jump in Nintendo handheld gaming from 3DS all the way to Wii U 1.5 or more. Since Nintendo doesn't really like extremely expensive graphics, because it takes longer and you have to have a larger team, and many people don't appreciate it anyway, Nintendo's attitude is probably "Even in 'console' mode, with NX docked and running to the TV, how many customers would notice a leap from high-end Wii U games like Mario Kart 8 or Smash Bros?"
They are an interesting bunch.
Unless they actually got that insane deal from Nvidia that was rumored.
calc84maniac
Member
In that case there's no point in having a 1080p screen on the handheld, if you're just going to blurrily upscale a 720p image. Just make it 720p to begin with and save on cost too.
Have the Nvidia logo being plastered on the handheld, use Nvidia tools for games and so on maybe? I do think Nvidia wants to make this deal something big, something they can show the world that their chipset means business. What better is it to have their chipset on a Nintendo handheld that shows that it can really do?
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