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Forget 60fps, 30fps is still a struggle for some games on PS4 Pro

R

RoboPlato

I'd be in the dick
5taquitos said:
The exact quote from Sony from the leaked Neo documents is:



That is not a mandate. Nowhere does it say "We'll be scouring each patch you release to make sure it meets these guidelines." It just says that they need to work to maintain parity. If these games don't get patched in the next few weeks, then you may have a case. Chances are developers rushed these patches out for this first round of games and are now working to tweak them.
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This

The games that perform worse on the Pro don't have consistent issues either, just highly taxing areas, not standard moment to moment gameplay. If any checks are occurring, they're just testing moment to moment stuff.

I'm going to wait a couple weeks before I start getting upset. As long as it's confined to a handful of launch titles and the devs can address the issues, I'll be happy. I always expected some bumps in the road since this is the first iterative console launch we've had.
 
P

Pathfinder

Member
5taquitos said:
That is not a mandate. Nowhere does it say "We'll be scouring each patch you release to make sure it meets these guidelines." It just says that they need to work to maintain parity. If these games don't get patched in the next few weeks, then you may have a case. Chances are developers rushed these patches out for this first round of games and are now working to tweak them.
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............................................. fair enough, he says begrudgingly.

Let's see what the next few weeks have in store for us regarding performance patches.
 
L

Lion Heart

Banned
You give a guy a bag and tell him he can fill it up with cash, he's going to stuff it to the brim until its falling out. You could give him a bigger bag to alleviate that issue but he's just going to put more and more into it until the result is the same.

Developers do the same thing, no matter how much power they have, they choose to push it to its limits. Devs could have done 1700p but they said hey we can go up to 1800p for "almost" the same performance cost. Thats on them, the hardware isn't really a factor in that DESIGN decision.

Pro has no "kinks" because the dev tools are working as they should, you can't stop someone from pushing polygons vs performance. Just too many people trying to shit on the Pro for various and obvious reasons. Sony should have mandated an option for 60fps with unchanged assets to appease this negativity. Actually that would be a great feature regardless.
 
M

Marty Chinn

Member
darscot said:
Its launch, and if you really had a clue and understood what it takes to launch a game or new hardware you would know your silly standard and demands are laughable.
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I understand it's launch. I've worked on launch games; have you? I'm saying this is a standard we should hold the Pro and developers to. Is it not a standard we as consumers should ask for? I'm willing to excuse quirks for launch as long as they get fixed, but it absolutely should be the standard moving forward.
 
P

Poimandres

Member
I guess welcome to the world of PC gaming and graphics settings? There's always a trade off somewhere. I think having 2 or 3 options ala Tomb Raider is the best approach.

With Tomb Raider, I play in 4K mode because the 30fps is solid enough and I prefer the super clean IQ over a higher frame rate. I'd probably approach a racing game differently.

But none of this is new, at all. PS3 and 360 struggled to run native resolution games at 30fps. PS4 and XB1 could run PS3 fidelity games at 60fps, but devs chose to push tech forward and, again, they struggle to maintain 30fps at times. Does anyone really think it will be any different for PS5? I doubt that even with true next gen consoles all devs will aim for native 4K.
 
G

GOOCHY

Member
I think you guys know this (I hope) but the vast, vast majority of video game players do not care about 60fps or even know what that is. Are the explosions bigger, brighter, more badass? That's all people care about.
 
adamsapple

adamsapple

Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
GOOCHY said:
I think you guys know this (I hope) but the vast, vast majority of video game players do not care about 60fps or even know what that is. Are the explosions bigger, brighter, more badass? That's all people care about.
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Nah man, Skyrim on Pro runs at 27 FPS for a few seconds .. fuck that noise.
/s
 
O

Orayn

Member
GOOCHY said:
I think you guys know this (I hope) but the vast, vast majority of video game players do not care about 60fps or even know what that is. Are the explosions bigger, brighter, more badass? That's all people care about.
Click to expand...

I think if you handed a bunch of people a CoD game that was capped at 30 FPS, theywould think something was up and that it didn't feel right. Even if they don't specifically recognize 60 FPS on sight, they can still appreciate the responsiveness it provides and the design decisions that hinge on it.
 
B

Brandon F

Well congratulations! You got yourself caught!
GhostOfSparta305 said:
4 out of 36 isn't 9%.
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Thank fuck someone called this out. I just started reading the thread and couldn't believe the amount of people that didn't notice that math goof.

Also, are there REALLY 36 games that support Pro out right now? Where is the list?
 
P

Purest 78

Member
I wouldn't worry about it These games weren't built ground up for the Pro basically just patch work. Now if I see problems on future games that'll be concerning.
 
Audiophile

Audiophile

Member
Mandating 60 for consoles is unrealistic, but if it's going to be 30 it needs to be rock solid and tear-free with drops being no more than a rare and negligible occurrence.

At this point, tearing and drops greater than 10% is unacceptable; regardless of what sacrifices have to be made.

I'm glad to see excellent dynamic framebuffer solutions becoming more prominent. With the move into the 1080-2160p territory, the variations are less apparent and I think it is a much better alternative to dropping/tearing frames.
 
D

darscot

Member
Marty Chinn said:
I understand it's launch. I've worked on launch games; have you? I'm saying this is a standard we should hold the Pro and developers to. Is it not a standard we as consumers should ask for? I'm willing to excuse quirks for launch as long as they get fixed, but it absolutely should be the standard moving forward.
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I would happily compare my resume with you but certainly not on a public gaming forum. If you truly worked in the business you would know your silly standard is nothing compared to the standards the people of the industry hold themselves too. They do what they can under the time and budget available. These are major titles we are talking about not some start up or one off.
 
C

Conkerkid11

Member
Toki767 said:
Most developers are going to opt for visual effects over framerate.
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I thought they were supposed to be pushing out a list of presets people could choose from, based on what they preferred, and just sticking strictly to visuals when it comes to the multiplayer portion.

Is that not happening then?
 
M

Marty Chinn

Member
darscot said:
I would happily compare my resume with you but certainly not on a public gaming forum. If you truly worked in the business you would know your silly standard is nothing compared to the standards the people of the industry hold themselves too. They do what they can under the time and budget available. These are major titles we are talking about not some start up or one off.
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Most developers met this standard though. A few didn't, so let's not act like this is some hard task to do. Setting the expectation from the beginning and holding developers to it is absolutely something gamers should do. I understand limited time and budget, something I've argued in the past that works against Pro support, which is why it's not a huge deal for the first batch of titles, but there is no reason we shouldn't expect Pro games to have a worse framerate. There's absolutely nothing stopping it from happening if we hold them to this expectation. You seem to want it to slide so that it can continue to slide in future titles. It's a terrible precident to set. We also shouldn't sit idle and assume that patches will be made to fix it. We need to be vocal about it. Look at World of Final Fantasy. That's a shitty situation without any word from the developer.
 
H

hogendaz85

Member
ghibli99 said:
1440p alone pushes 78% more pixels than 1080p, 1800p is 150% more, and 2160p/4K is of course 300%. Most games run at the same speed or faster, some run just slightly slower, which when I consider what's being done for $400, is pretty impressive. There are exceptions that have problems that truly do need to be fixed/optimized, though. I don't do side-by-side comparisons all the time like DF, so I'm probably never going to notice a 1-3 fps drop. Hope future patches just let games render in the original 1080p (or lower) resolution if players want either the vanilla experience on the Pro or increased IQ at 1080p. I would certainly appreciate that, even though I have a 4K display.
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I think people don't consider the difference when you factor in the pixel increase.

Also my 980ti drops frames time to time at 1080p I don't nick cage boo about it though because it's just going to happen sometimes.

Thanks DF for making gamers freak out everywhere.
 
D

darscot

Member
Marty Chinn said:
Most developers met this standard though. A few didn't, so let's not act like this is some hard task to do. Setting the expectation from the beginning and holding developers to it is absolutely something gamers should do. I understand limited time and budget, something I've argued in the past that works against Pro support, which is why it's not a huge deal for the first batch of titles, but there is no reason we shouldn't expect Pro games to have a worse framerate. There's absolutely nothing stopping it from happening if we hold them to this expectation. You seem to want it to slide so that it can continue to slide in future titles. It's a terrible precident to set. We also shouldn't sit idle and assume that patches will be made to fix it. We need to be vocal about it. Look at World of Final Fantasy. That's a shitty situation without any word from the developer.
Click to expand...

The whole thread and issue is laughable. Standards are not sliding, no one needs to be held accountable. If you don't want to "sit idle" go ahead plan a rally, hold a protest, go on a hunger strike. A couple games have minor issues, the horror.
 
O

Orayn

Member
zeelman said:
Not really, 60 fps was the standard until 3D games started coming out.
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Well yeah, it's also much more complicated and computationally demanding than running a 2D game on hardware specifically adapted to scrolling layers, manipulating character sprites, tracking bullets, etc.
 
H

HTupolev

Member
zeelman said:
Not really, 60 fps was the standard until 3D games started coming out.
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That wasn't due to a mandate, though. It was because the video hardware on those platforms cycled in sync with the video signal (i.e. at 60Hz), rather than carrying out draw commands as received from the CPU. There was a hard-esque limit to how much you could actually draw (both scene complexity and image quality) regardless of framerate target, and the only way you could lose performance was CPU side, so targeting lower offered a lot less bang for the buck.
 
N

names2hard4you

Member
OP blame it on the developers, not the console. I'm quite convinced some devs were pushed to rush out a patch, and this could be part of the reason the games aren't performing as well as they should, since you don't see those problems on other titles.
 
M

Moz

Member
It's actually kind of the same in PC land. At the moment, if you're sat with for example a 970 and a 1080p/60fps monitor, you could upgrade either - get a nice 1080p/1440p high refresh rate monitor, or get a nice new GPU. Trouble is, a worthy upgrade to a 970, like a 1070, is overkill for 1080p/60fps in most games. Whereas if you make the jump to say, a 1440p/144hz screen, your 970 is going to struggle to make the most of it. Unless you want to spend upwards of a grand on both at the same time, you really have to figure out your priorities.

From what I've seen on my PS4 pro, I think there's currently more benefit in getting one for 1080p than there is for getting one to use in 4k. Last Of Us Remastered is a much more enjoyable experience at 55-60fps at 1800p downscaled compared to 4k 30fps. But then you're seeing FUD stories from Polygon and so on claiming it "runs worse than PS4" because it drops to 55fps occasionally, even though it's running at 3200×1800 and has vastly improved image quality for the sake of a few dropped frames. I'm running mine on a 4K/HDR Samsung screen, but plan to use the 60fps mode wherever it's possible.

I'm truly not sure 4k is a good move for the console or PC space right now, as you need a huge amount of GPU power for demanding games in native 4k. The half way house of having some broad options/modes to switch on and off, but not being able to toggle more granular options to find the mix of IQ/framerate that suits your preferences, seems like the worst of both PC & console worlds.
 
F

Fisty

Member
Marty Chinn said:
I understand it's launch. I've worked on launch games; have you? I'm saying this is a standard we should hold the Pro and developers to. Is it not a standard we as consumers should ask for? I'm willing to excuse quirks for launch as long as they get fixed, but it absolutely should be the standard moving forward.
Click to expand...

So when I look through your credited in page I should see nothing but perfect performance and beautiful graphics across the board because devs shouldn't settle for less
 
M

Marty Chinn

Member
darscot said:
The whole thread and issue is laughable. Standards are not sliding, no one needs to be held accountable. If you don't want to "sit idle" go ahead plan a rally, hold a protest, go on a hunger strike. A couple games have minor issues, the horror.
Click to expand...
When you start advocating that is great to compromise framerate for image quality, which you did, that's letting it slide and sending the message that it's acceptable to do so. We should not let that become the norm. If developers want to push the visual fidelity, then give the consumer an option to not have a compromised framerate. I'm noot arguing games should be 60. I'm not arguing there shouldn't be frame rate dips. I'm arguing the framerate should not be worse than the PS4 without an option to pick a mode with where it isn't. That should be the expectation of anyone who has a Pro. You're acting like that's unreasonable or unobtainable. Nobody should be okay that a Pro game has a worse framerate than the standard PS4.
 
D

darscot

Member
Marty Chinn said:
When you start advocating that is great to compromise framerate for image quality, which you did, that's letting it slide and sending the message that it's acceptable to do so. We should not let that become the norm. If developers want to push the visual fidelity, then give the consumer an option to not have a compromised framerate. I'm noot arguing games should be 60. I'm not arguing there shouldn't be frame rate dips. I'm arguing the framerate should not be worse than the PS4 without an option to pick a mode with where it isn't. That should be the expectation of anyone who has a Pro. You're acting like that's unreasonable or unobtainable. Nobody should be okay that a Pro game has a worse framerate than the standard PS4.
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I'm acting like I actually have a clue. You are just ranting about an issue you that you clearly do not understand.
 
B

BriareosGAF

Member
Inuhanyou said:
Dynamic res. Just like BF1, just like titanfall. Titanfall can go as low as 720p depending on the load. On XB1 it can go as low as 480p(!!!), PS2 levels.
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We (IW7) drop res very infrequently on Pro. At the risk of over-simplifying, our workloads scale very well as we're a forward(plus) renderer and not as much subject to memory bandwidth penalties as the contemporary deferred. We spent a shit load of time on the up-sampling too, of course. You can thank @iryoku1, among others, for that.
 
M

Marty Chinn

Member
darscot said:
I'm acting like I actually have a clue. You are just ranting about an issue you that you clearly do not understand.
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Okay, you're right. Developers have no control over the performance of their game. That means patches can't be made and aren't being made to resolve the performance because it can't be helped. I got it now.
 
D

darscot

Member
Marty Chinn said:
Okay, you're right. Developers have no control over the performance of their game. That means patches can't be made and aren't being made to resolve the performance because it can't be helped. I got it now.
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Dude can you bring anything to the table other than bullshit hyperbole? I'm out
 
M

Marty Chinn

Member
darscot said:
Dude can you bring anything to the table other than bullshit hyperbole? I'm out
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Well which is it since you're claiming to be the expert and that I don't have a clue nor know how to do my job. Can a developer make sure the Pro version doesn't have a worse framerate from the stock PS4 or not? With a system that's more than twice the GPU performance, a faster CPU, and in no way worse it shouldn't be a problem.
 
L

leng jai

Member
names2hard4you said:
OP blame it on the developers, not the console. I'm quite convinced some devs were pushed to rush out a patch, and this could be part of the reason the games aren't performing as well as they should, since you don't see those problems on other titles.
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I did blame the developers rather than the hardware.
 
I

III-V

Member
did you down PS5 games will drop below 30 fps as well? Everyone saw this coming, without an big boost to CPU and a hard line from Sony, games will continue this trend of a nominal 30.
 
L

leng jai

Member
Conduit said:
Thread headline says otherwise.

Skyrim, is far from struggling.
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Only reason the PS4 Pro is mentioned is because it's the fastest console hardware out right now and it's particularly relevant right now in the grand scheme of things. Games like Ratchet and CoD are absolutely brilliant on the PS4 Pro, so it's not the hardware. I doubt Scorpio will be any different.
 
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