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GamesRadar: Street Fighter V's backlash proves we value quantity over quality

ReBurn

Gold Member
Problem is too many people want quantity at the expense of quality. Most devs don't control their release schedules. So they have to make a choice, epaeixally if they are being hamstrung and rushed. They need to choose whether to pack their game full of content at launch at the expense of fine polishing and general quality, requiring rapid patch support, or they can choose to only include the content they know they can have polished and working in a near flawless state for launch and then patch in the content they didn't include at launch later for free after it is finished.

The first option you get a game like Battlefield 4 where the game is essentially unplayable for 4+ months after launch and the second option gets you a game like Star Wars Battlefront where it plays flawlessly but takes a few months to add in more free content.

I'll always prefer the second option.

Capcom being put in a position to deliver quality over quantity based on a release schedule isn't really something that can be pushed back to consumers, though. And consumers don't have to "please understand" when the price tag remains the same for less game than they've gotten in the past.

With the SF series Capcom has set a standard for delivering a certain amount of value. Online competitive play and certain single player modes were key parts of SFIV. They've built a reputation for having certain qualities, including rich single player experiences, in their games.

If they wanted to go the game as a service route and drop modes that don't make them additional revenue they should have dropped base price and made up the difference with their Zenny model for online/service content. But they're charging full price and still using the Zenny model, which to me is pretty crappy. To me they haven't delivered quality or quantity regardless of the strength of the core fighting mechanics.
 

Skilletor

Member
Only because they keep releasing new iterations. Vanilla, Super, AE, Ultra.

They said they're not doing this time around, so I wonder how that works for them.

They've only said this is the only disc you'll ever need, not that they won't be releasing updates.

People keep confusing this message.
 

muteki

Member
I don't see the lack of an arcade mode to be a "man we would really like to put this in there but just don't have time" kind of problem, more of a "people don't care about this, let's work on other things" problem. What modes to include/exclude are decisions made relatively forever ago, and if at the time they thought it was necessary it would be there. A arcade mode is just about as little of effort needed when it comes to modes, when you look at it compared to everything else already there.

So I don't think the fundamental problem is that they ran out of time, or should have delayed it, but rather a misunderstanding of a good chunk of their audience.
 

farisr

Member
They've only said this is the only disc you'll ever need, not that they won't be releasing updates.

People keep confusing this message.
Yeah, there are undoubtedly going to be something like "2017 edition" retail releases that are a bundling of all released content on disc so far, but they're basically going to be like MKXL type releases. Owners of the original disc aren't going to be locked out like a Super or Ultra release would do.
 

Pompadour

Member
I don't think the casual base would be a minority. I minority for online or sticking with the game for years to come sure.

A lot of people assume that the casual base only plays single player, which isn't true. The casual audience is the audience that plays online just like with Halo or CoD. Maybe the SP only people are "super casual" or whatever but Capcom didn't design SFV almost entirely around online play (which tourney people are never a huge fan of) to appeal to like 1% of players.
 

Jawmuncher

Member
I don't see the lack of an arcade mode to be a "man we would really like to put this in there but just don't have time" kind of problem, more of a "people don't care about this, let's work on other things" problem. What modes to include/exclude are decisions made relatively forever ago, and if at the time they thought it was necessary it would be there. A arcade mode is just about as little of effort needed when it comes to modes, when you look at it compared to everything else already there.

So I don't think the fundamental problem is that they ran out of time, or should have delayed it, but rather a misunderstanding of a good chunk of their audience.

I dunno after playing the character stories I think it was more a time situation. More focus on getting the game balanced and online with it's systems to work over anything else. Which isn't bad. Better a light on content game that's polished (Server issues and other oddities aside) than a really glitchy unbalanced fighter.

A lot of people assume that the casual base only plays single player, which isn't true. The casual audience is the audience that plays online just like with Halo or CoD. Maybe the SP only people are "super casual" or whatever but Capcom didn't design SFV almost entirely around online play (which tourney people are never a huge fan of) to appeal to like 1% of players.

I still think that's a good chunk of what they would want though. There is the Cinematic Story mode coming later. It's odd for them to push for the casual crowd, and make the game more inviting to them gameplay wise. But not give them a bit more SP content right out of the gate.
 

entremet

Member
They've only said this is the only disc you'll ever need, not that they won't be releasing updates.

People keep confusing this message.

Outside of Vanilla, SFIV is the same model then?

If you got Super you didn't need to buy another disc either.
 

captainpat

Member
We've had a number of fighters that have given us both quality and quantity or at least didn't charge $60 when they were lacking.
 

ironmang

Member
I think my biggest complaint is the time it's taking to get new matches in casual/ranked. In SF4 I easily could jump from lobby to lobby. Now it feels like I'm waiting 2-3 minutes just to find another match. It's still early so I won't hold it against them but if it's still like this in another month I'll be disappointed.
 

Nyx

Member
"Disproportionate" is definitely the right word for the backlash.

I disagree, while I love the SF franchise and will play V for a long time it has released without the possibility to play regular matches against the CPU.

This feature has been in every single fighting game ever made!

And that is why I think Capcom deserves this backlash and I hope they take notice.
 

Hubb

Member
With video game sales being so front loaded, Capcom made a terrible business decision.

They sacrificed this game for the FGC basically.

It's admirable in some respect, but if I were a Capcom stockholder, I would be furious.

Casual gamers are gonna jump in en masse in six months after the terrible online impressions.

That is exactly what Capcom is hoping. They are looking to model after some of the big esports games out there that aren't front loaded. Time will tell if it works for them or not, but if the game gets popular on streaming sites and the March update fixes a lot of problems, well people have short memories. Obviously the big negative for Capcom is the $60 price tag. Sooner or later when they have a deeper cast they will probably make it f2p, but at the very least the base game will go down in price.

I knew what I was buying, and I am happy to have it in my hands now. I hope SF5 isn't hurt greatly from the launch. I want to play this game for a long time.
 

Skilletor

Member
Outside of Vanilla, SFIV is the same model then?

If you got Super you didn't need to buy another disc either.

But if you didn't upgrade, you were cut off from the rest of the community. if you didn't buy Ultra, you were behind. That won't happen with this game. You'll always be able to play the game with other people no matter how many updates the game receives.
 

farisr

Member
So I don't think the fundamental problem is that they ran out of time, or should have delayed it, but rather a misunderstanding of a good chunk of their audience.
This is definitely it, just looking at the content roadmap, and that forbes article comment, it almost seems like the thought of Arcade didn't even occur to them.
 

Rockandrollclown

lookwhatyou'vedone
Only because they keep releasing new iterations. Vanilla, Super, AE, Ultra.

They said they're not doing this time around, so I wonder how that works for them.

See, this also means I personally will likely never buy the game. Well, maybe for $5 on a steam sale or something. I typically only buy fighting games/revisions at launch. I'm not very good at these games. I need an infusion of casuals to play against for it to be fun, which new versions bring. Waiting 6 months when casuals have moved on and the only people who remain are fighting game gods is no bueno for me.
 

ZangBa

Member
I don't think quality is a really accurate way to describe a rushed game that has framerate dips on some stages when it's supposed to be taken seriously. Then there is ragequitting being basically encouraged, fight money not being rewarded properly. Even the art looks like it was handled by Dragon Ball Super's staff.
 

farisr

Member
Outside of Vanilla, SFIV is the same model then?

If you got Super you didn't need to buy another disc either.
Think MKXL rather than a Super or Ultra release. All the released content just bundled in on disc rather than needing to download or purchase it. But the game is the same, the original disc users won't have to upgrade or spend money to continue playing it.
 
The game is fucking fantastic. I absolutely love it.

Can't wait for Capcom to deliver the modes that are missing, so that everyone can enjoy it, not just people into versus play.
Agree with that. Except for the clowny damage ramp up in survival. If I get to level 49 again only to fail and have nothing to show for it one more fucking time, i'ma strangle a small woodland creature. But yea the characters, visuals and gameplay are fantastic. Too much missing to not point out disappointment, however.

And hand-waving the missing content that we see often in these threads only irritates people. It's generally better to empathize with people than to debate whether the content that many others value is not worth much because you (not you, but in general) don't use it much.
 

fernoca

Member
I think more than "quality vs. quantity" is about expectations.

People didn't expected Street Fighter V to release with less characters, less backgrounds and less modes than Street Fighter IV did.

So when they pay $60 again for a product with less content than the previous one, outside the promises of more coming later; of course there will be disappointment. Even blown out of proportion online were everything is blown out of proportion as either best or worst ever.

Then combined with the silence when it came totalk about the release schedule of characters, how to unlock/buy them, and other additional modes and how were mentioned a few weeks before release.
 
I really don't get why SFV only has one over the other when other games either A) do a better job providing both at once out of the box or B) don't cost $60. Especially when the same criticisms have been leveled at past releases they've done. It shouldn't be an either/or question.
 
No,
Quality= Money - quantity.
The game should of have had 2 characters as having more than 2 ruins the quality.

It's a ridiculous article, I'm fine with people being satisfied with online and gameplay, but I don't get how you can say it was for FGC to exclude versus CPU mode the most basic mode in fighters or you a casual for wanting it in a 60 dollar product.

There are 3 vs cpu modes, last time I was on. Story was too easy but survival modes are way better than Arcade and you can endlessly fight the cpu in training with depleting health bars and adjustable difficulty. It is great in training because there is no loading in between KOs. Don't get me wrong, I can't wait for the new modes in March, but currently, there is a lot to do.
 

gablekevin

Neo Member
It would have missed like 1 or 2 tourneys by delaying it a month. With so many events, I don't think that would have mattered much.

It was fucking stupid of Capcom to launch in this state.

You may be right that it wasnt smart to launch in this state but you cant build an international fighting game tour and just miss a few events. They are making a serious run at doing this Pro tour right and missing events would derail the legitimacy of it.

Capcom has been super transparent as to what was coming out when so other than the 24-48 hour server problems people should have known exactly what they were getting into.
 

LaserHawk

Member
My "backlash" has been four level-headed but critical posts on a message board of waning importance. I don't feel like I've overreacted.

Arcade mode is my favorite part of Street Fighter. The multiplayer component is occasionally fun, but not very important to me. Nobody can argue that it was unreasonable to assume there would be an arcade mode, and yet I didn't find out it was gone until the game was at my local post office and ready to be delivered. I'm optimistic about the full Story Mode, but it also means it might take four months before Street Fighter 5 is actually fun to me.

So yeah, I'm disappointed. I don't think I've been unreasonable.
 
From a fighting aficionado perspective I feel like I'm getting my money's worth. From a casual perspective I would feel rip off, the problem is they been open about this but either some ignored the issue or just bought the game on a whim.

Nowadays you gotta do your research before buying game instead of falling for the hype which happens all the time on Gaf and I just laugh.
 
It would have missed like 1 or 2 tourneys by delaying it a month. With so many events, I don't think that would have mattered much.

It was fucking stupid of Capcom to launch in this state.
It would have missed 2 majors and a whole bunch of smaller CPTand weekly stuff
 

jett

D-Member
I don't think quality is a really accurate way to describe a rushed game that has framerate dips on some stages when it's supposed to be taken seriously. Then there is ragequitting being basically encouraged, fight money not being rewarded properly. Even the art looks like it was handled by Dragon Ball Super's staff.

Quality online fighter that doesn't support spectators and that lobbies only hold two people. That quality. Quality online fighter where you can't message other people, and you can't invite people from your friendlist. That quality. Quality online fighter where online has been flat out fucking broken for many of us after four days still. Quality online fighter where ragequits don't affect your streak.

Everything that isn't pure combat mechanics is just trash in this game.
 

farisr

Member
There are 3 vs cpu modes, last time I was on. Story was too easy but survival modes are way better than Arcade and you can endlessly fight the cpu in training with depleting health bars and adjustable difficulty. It is great in training because there is no loading in between KOs. Don't get me wrong, I can't wait for the new modes in March, but currently, there is a lot to do.
That is entirely subjective. I personally am not a fan of having to go through the past 29 opponents that I had no problems defeating just to get the chance to face the 30th opponent that I lost to earlier. Folks into arcade are not necessarily going to like survival or consider it better. There's a reason why it's a separate mode.
 
Quality online fighter that doesn't support spectators and that lobbies only hold two people. That quality. Quality online fighter where you can't message other people, and you can't invite people from your friendlist. That quality. Quality online fighter where online has been flat out fucking broken for many of us after four days still. Quality online fighter where ragequits don't affect your streak.

Everything that isn't pure combat mechanics is just trash in this game.
Unless you're talking about hate mail then you can do both of those? What other fighting games have in-game messaging services?
 

RiccochetJ

Gold Member
I think the only thing that is glaringly missing from this game at launch is a nice training mode. That and the battle lounge has been a bit of a disappointment, but I know that's going to become better here soon.

Everything else has been pretty stellar once the servers became more stable.
 
D

Deleted member 752119

Unconfirmed Member
But if you didn't upgrade, you were cut off from the rest of the community. if you didn't buy Ultra, you were behind. That won't happen with this game. You'll always be able to play the game with other people no matter how many updates the game receives.

Yep. I much prefer this approach, but I do think they've muddled the marketing and pricing etc.

To move to this game as service model, they should have just titled it something like Street Fighter Online. Put out on more of the KI model, free rotating character, then $40 or whatever to unlock all 16. Then go forward with the season passes, individual character/costume purchases etc. And no Fight Money. That defeats the profit purpose of a game as service as the long term players who stand to buy more DLC in a usual model will earn the most content for free.

Naming the game Street Fighter Online, instead of a numbered entry, means they basically never have to release a new base game. Just do the free yearly or so updates, and when new people jump on board they just immediately get the newest updated base game, and ability to purchase any existing DLC etc. When a New Generation comes around, do a bigger update of the base game that makes more changes than past ones--but also include that for free to people who own the base game, carry over their stats etc.

That type of approach would have a lot of potential as they're not spending development money on sequels, but just free updates, and by keeping a player base long term you have a permanent revenue stream ala an MMO type game.

But they've totally botched all of that by launching at $60, including Fight Money which will reduce DLC profits, botching the marketing with all the messages about appealing to casuals when it's still a very hardcore fighting game and lacking modes, tutorials etc. needed to bring in casuals etc.
 

Eidan

Member
The quality of gameplay in SF titles have been consistently solid for a long long time. And those previous titles actually have single player content. SFV is behind not only its contemporaries, but all other mainline Street Fighters since II.
 
I mean, theres a lot to be argued about when it comes to SFV. It's SP content is unarguably tight, but its getting more for free in the coming months. They clearly could've used some testing in these betas for the features that seem to be causing them the most headaches in the few days post-launch (ranked matches, no ragequitting punishment, battle lounges). These are all fair criticisms to make, fine. But this all goes hand in hand with the gameplay they did craft.

I've been playing fighting games in all shapes & sizes since SF2. SFV is easily the pinnacle of fighting game design, bar none. The gameplay is infinitely more accessible than earlier entries in the series, while still maintaining the depth the genre is known for & that is required for competitive play. It's incredibly fun, reward, & engaging. On top of that, it features a cast where the entire roster is so close to one another in terms of power balance, that there aren't any weak links; you can, as of right now, rest assured that any character you pick on the roster has a tool kit that is strong enough to make that character competitive. And the v-system ensures that the individual tools your character is given allows them to stay competitive, even as meta 'tech' is discovered.

Capcom was in a really tough position, and Street Fighter V is a game that features a ton of firsts for the franchise. Its the first franchise entry to not feature an arcade release prior to its home release. It's the first entry where it was built with the idea of being extensively updated for years & years to come (Vanilla SF4 had to be dropped cause they didn't build the systems needed to support DLC, hence SSF4). It's the first entry where Capcom has implemented a moba-like currency system to allow players to be able to earn what would ordinarily be paid DLC. It's the first entry where an entire e-sports league was built with the sole purpose of being its competitive showcase.

Street FIghter games aren't games I put down after a month. I easily puts 100s of hours during the life time into each individual entry. Primarily that is all spent in local VS & online modes. I know there are a ton of casual players who don't get that into them, who want something they casually play with some buddies for a month or so after it launches, and they may never pick it up again. We can all go in circles over casual vs. competitive & whether or not SFV deserves to be shit on because its lacking in content. However, its not lacking in gameplay. In fact, its top of its class when it comes to that department. Thats all I really cared about, and thats what i'm enjoying at the moment. The internet can have its hyperbolic overreaction; i'm just gonna go play some SFV in the meantime.
 

Garlador

Member
For $60 I expect a reasonable amount of quantity to go with the underlying quality.

This cuts right to the thick of it. It's so simple and yet this is exactly why I'm disappointed while acknowledging the fighting system is solid.

The game is good. It's just not full-price, feature-complete, competitive, retail $60+ good. It is, in many ways, a regression of the choices and offerings we had in the past.

It's not "quality or quantity, pick one and only one". I expected BOTH, and I don't think that's unreasonable considering countless other games and countless other fighting games do precisely that - even prior Street Fighter games.

Many times, the "quantity" that is included increases the package's "quality", but SFV shipped in a state that is so barebones, Skeletor is telling it to add some meat to the proceedings.
 
Game is fantastic.

If I want something more it's a Alpha III style World Tour mode via DLC. Loved that shit back on PS1.
 
Or we value both and the absence of either one can't and shouldn't be ignored.
His point isn't to ignore it. He fully acknowledged some problems in this article and his review.

Oh here we go, another puff piece telling consumers that they are wrong for not bending over and taking a companies crap. Where Have I heard this before?
That is what he is saying? You may want to give the article another read.
 

geordiemp

Member
I disagree, while I love the SF franchise and will play V for a long time it has released without the possibility to play regular matches against the CPU.

This feature has been in every single fighting game ever made!

And that is why I think Capcom deserves this backlash and I hope they take notice.

Agree, I am a casual player, would not play online for a fighting game, but its a 2D fighting game and should have lots of features for a full priced game on release. Heck this is not a GTA5 type development.

Its a dangerous precedent to start releasing games half finished, is that what all games will start doing ?
 

Garlador

Member
Oh here we go, another puff piece telling consumers that they are wrong for not bending over and taking a companies crap. Where Have I heard this before?

Also, related, it's the customers that determine the value of a product, not the game makers or publishers. If the customers and players feel the value isn't there, that the game isn't measuring up in one way or another, that supplants a publisher, a games journalist, or PR guy telling the players en mass that they're wrong.

It's not quite at "Bioware owes you all nothing!" levels of journalism yet though.

I haven't followed this game closely, but I always get Street Fighter eventually. Is there really no Arcade and no VS cpu? What?
Correct. These were standard features as far back as 1991, and they are missing here.
 

Kintaro

Worships the porcelain goddess
Casual Gamers aren't going to jump in the game in six months. That's WHY games tend to be so front loaded, because casual gamers jump in at launch. Casual Gamers in October, aren't going to go "OH YEAH! I forgot about Street Fighter V! Fuck this super hyped and marketed Holiday Season Title I've been looking forward to, time to jump in to a finally feature complete SFV!"
 

Acerac

Banned
Disproportionate is exactly the word I used in another thread.

One of the biggest complaints about the game is already fixed, and many of the arguments being thrown around are by people who are obviously ignorant of the in game mechanics.

Feel free to talk shit about the game's flaws, but when you say that the game doesn't work offline or won't let you fight AI you're just flat out wrong.
 
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