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[Alienous]

Thats not true.

The sentence seems to suggest it might be a typo.

 

[Ill Saint]

What I found quite surprising was this guy's rather emotional and flippant declaration that because of this Gigilo mode--that he has seemingly misinterpreted and misrepresented-- Suda has lost all credibility and respect as an industry figure, and that his career is essentially over. That's quite a serious statement if this fellow and his employer are of any influence and repute in the videogame world.

 

[Zeyphersan]

It's like no one in this thread knows what "criticism" is. It's not calling for censorship or banning, it's creating a dialogue about what's acceptable in games, why that's so, and what we want to be acceptable.

All the people claiming that feminists want to take away games or ban them don't seem to really know how to have a constructive conversation. They just go "censoring is bad!" as if that ends it. Well yeah, in most cases, censoring is bad, but no one here is calling for censorship! Well, most people.

We're trying to say "Hey, this is possibly offensive. Why is that? Why does it need to be this way and what's the context? What does this say about society, or maybe cultural differences between Japan and the US?"

People act like the world's going to fucking explode if someone starts a goddamn conversation.

 

[Delusibeta]

Thats not true.

To play Devil's Advocate, when was the last time you've seen a negative preview? Although that's more of a general GAEMS JURNALIZM issue, but still.

 

[dubq]

To play Devil's Advocate, when was the last time you've seen a negative review? Although that's more of a general GAEMS JUNGLEISM issue, but still.

Negative review or preview? Previews are usually reserved for footage, screens, story details.. though a negative preview certainly isn't out of the ordinary.

 

[SlasherJPC]

People act like the world's going to fucking explode if someone starts a goddamn conversation.

That's just it. He didn't start a conversation, he lied, and misrepresented a game for controversial topic conversation. If he brought these points up without slamming the game creator and everything else in the process then perhaps people would have viewed it a bit different.

 

[antitrop]

It's like no one in this thread knows what "criticism" is. It's not calling for censorship or banning, it's creating a dialogue about what's acceptable in games, why that's so, and what we want to be acceptable.

All the people claiming that feminists want to take away games or ban them don't seem to really know how to have a constructive conversation. They just go "censoring is bad!" as if that ends it. Well yeah, in most cases, censoring is bad, but no one here is calling for censorship! Well, most people.

We're trying to say "Hey, this is possibly offensive. Why is that? Why does it need to be this way and what's the context? What does this say about society, or maybe cultural differences between Japan and the US?"

People act like the world's going to fucking explode if someone starts a goddamn conversation.

Ya ya, that's all well and good but I think you missed the part where he was shown to misrepresent most of the scene to further his agenda.

A conversation based on half-truths and misrepresentations is not a conversation worth having.

 

[RedEther]

Funny video+interesting thread+over the top game=Pre-order confirmed.

 

[Stripper13]

Watched the video - checked out some footage of the game.

Won't buy - Suda51 can fuck off

Spoiler

into space?!

. The fact that even half of that mode is true, and the rest is true but otherwise misrepresented or misunderstoond - is enough of a reason to avoid.

It's one thing to go for hyper-realism and flirt with the idea of sexuality - say, like Bayonetta - where you actually play as the character and the rest of the game is built around the theme.

It's another thing entirely to insert a seperate mode where you quite literally don't talk to a 'target' (a ridiculous name no matter how or why it is presented like that) and simply be sneaky and gawk to win her affected. The gift thing isn't so bad really - it's a little disappointing that Matt said 'wad of cash' in reference to a commemorative coin. Games like Persona (and a raft of others) use 'gifts' to win the heart of your potential partner - however I think context is key. Persona has you spending vast amounts of time talking to, spending time with and making choices with your selected partner(s) - and giving a gift when the time is appropriate doesn't really do anything. The context in Killer is Dead is a stark contrast - where, after being a pervert and then using X-ray specs to discover what they like (without you know, asking them) you provide a gift to seal the deal.

Regardless, I'm sure many will play and enjoy it - but I have to question what these designers are thinking. Certainly if you're going for a mode like this it needs to be presented in a far more comical (and less of a 'Bond'/Creepy/Alpha-male) fashion than what exists.

 

[Brawly Likes to Brawl]

People act like the world's going to fucking explode if someone starts a goddamn conversation.

If Lees wanted to have a simple dialogue, then maybe he shouldn't have kicked things off with a hyperbolic and facetious display.

 

[Arklite]

People act like the world's going to fucking explode if someone starts a goddamn conversation.

One problem is that journalists have done a pretty poor job at 'starting the conversation' with both this game and Dragon's Crown. Exaggerated descriptions, calling the creators careers finished, or 14 year olds with no talent, or any other shit is a terrible way to expect to have a serious discussion.

 

[espher]

Sounds a lot like the clubs in my city. People just go there for one-night stands. It's hilarious to watch for me as a spectator.

 

[Piscus]

Really. If people dont like the content of the game, then don't fucking play it. But no.. they must run to the internet to whine via twitter, blogs, articles, etc!

or neogaf posts, like the one you just left?

 

[Delusibeta]

Negative review or preview? Previews are usually reserved for footage, screens, story details.. though a negative preview certainly isn't out of the ordinary.

Typo. I meant preview. And I stand by that post: games journalists don't go "eh, this game looks kinda bad" often enough in previews.

 

[dubq]

Footage of the mode in question, fwiw: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IdJTqn5EVo

 

[Nanashi]

Well, the cultural and language barrier is a large problem - I was reading the other 4gamer interview with Shin Hiroyuki and Suda Goichi a while back and I got the impression that they themselves thought Mondo himself was a little silly/stupid regarding the entire gigolo mode thing (they were comparing him to Travis). It seemed like they weren't trying to portray Mondo as an everyman, just as a "cool guy" with a bit of a dumb and awkward side to him.

They also spent a really long time (and had a sort of democratic approach towards) creating the 3-4 "Mondo Gals" that you can date in gigolo mode, so I doubt the developers themselves think of them as throwaway sex objects (There's some implication that out of the 10 or so personalities that they created, Yasuda said that Koharu 'absolutely had to be in the game', so Yasuda and Suda got one pick each and the remaining two were left to popular internal opinion or something).

If you're interested, the interview is here.

The focal point of the second interview is that according to Yasuda, they primarily create games that "they would enjoy", rather than try to create games designed to pander to what they think gamers would like. If they did, they'd probably end up with a completely boring game unlikely to offend anyone.

 

[Lotto]

You know when his video started I was worried that there was something wrong with the game, like shitty controls or something. Thank god it's just him being offended for women.

lol

Space is a pretty cool place. I don't care for this mode and again, I do understand why people would be offended by this but it just doesn't even feel like something worth going off about. I didn't watch the video though because I couldn't care less. I take this video game as seriously as it takes itself, and I'm pretty sure this game doesn't take itself seriously.

 

[Alienous]

Footage of the mode in question, fwiw: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IdJTqn5EVo

How anybody doesn't see this clearly as a parody of 'those types of games' is beyond me.

 

[Zeyphersan]

One problem is that journalists have done a pretty poor job at 'starting the conversation' with both this game and Dragon's Crown. Exaggerated descriptions, calling the creators careers finished, or 14 year olds with no talent, or any other shit is a terrible way to expect to have a serious discussion.

I'm not talking about him. I'm talking about HERE. Even before it was revealed that he was lying, people lost their shit at the mere idea that someone could be offended by something in a game. That's what I'm talking about. What he said was completely irrelevant, and people are acting like because what he said was false, that makes all comments of being offended suddenly not matter.

People were mad at the possibility that someone is offended by something in a game., and turned the argument into a "don't censor my games!" one where it didn't exist.

 

[LordJim]

How anybody doesn't see this clearly as a parody of 'those types of games' is beyond me.

Extended dating sim gameplay ain't common in the west, I guess?

 

[antitrop]

Extended dating sim

Oh, that's what they call them? That's pretty cute.

 

[prwxv3]

One problem is that journalists have done a pretty poor job at 'starting the conversation' with both this game and Dragon's Crown. Exaggerated descriptions, calling the creators careers finished, or 14 year olds with no talent, or any other shit is a terrible way to expect to have a serious discussion.

This. I don't see why a creator would have a discussion with someone that insults them in absurd ways like you said.

 

[Knux-Future]

It's like no one in this thread knows what "criticism" is. It's not calling for censorship or banning, it's creating a dialogue about what's acceptable in games, why that's so, and what we want to be acceptable.

All the people claiming that feminists want to take away games or ban them don't seem to really know how to have a constructive conversation. They just go "censoring is bad!" as if that ends it. Well yeah, in most cases, censoring is bad, but no one here is calling for censorship! Well, most people.

We're trying to say "Hey, this is possibly offensive. Why is that? Why does it need to be this way and what's the context? What does this say about society, or maybe cultural differences between Japan and the US?"

People act like the world's going to fucking explode if someone starts a goddamn conversation.

The thing is that tehy often start the conversation poorly.

Starting off any conversation with calling someone sexist or something...often doesn't get people to give a fuck about what you say.

It's like going "Hey you are an asshole, wanna talk about why I think this way?"

That conversation gets off on a bad start.

If you start it with a "hey, I don't like these things you do...and here's why" you might get better reception.

and also it doesn't help that the finger is pointed at the wrong targets. There is room for crass, silly, and oft perverted entertainment...especially when it knows it's silly. Placing the blame at the feet of games like this is the wrong idea.

It's funny how many get up in arms when the whole vdieogame make you violent shit pops up and use similar defenses "oh censorship" "oh it's not hurting anyone" "oh it is just silly" but feels like silly ass games are the bane to women everywhere.

and once again...it's not like this game is trying to be taken seriously. it's satire. Saint's Row is satire and does some things that could be considered offensive. the GTA serious often does it too and that is "trying" to be taken seriously.

and in the end....not everything needs to be high brow entertainment...there is room for silly shit too.

and the constant outrage makes it seem like that shouldn't be the case

 

[LordJim]

Oh, that's what they call them? That's pretty cute.

Porn content exists through multiple genres.
RPGs, strategy, driving, fishing, poker.
Dating sims have their unique mechanics as well.

 

[BocoDragon]

I'm not talking about him. I'm talking about HERE. Even before it was revealed that he was lying, people lost their shit at the mere idea that someone could be offended by something in a game. That's what I'm talking about. What he said was completely irrelevant, and people are acting like because what he said was false, that makes all comments of being offended suddenly not matter.

People were mad at the possibility that someone is offended by something in a game., and turned the argument into a "don't censor my games!" one where it didn't exist.

We know critics aren't trying to censor it.

But the criticism is to imply this kind of game shouldn't exist.

The reaction is going to be the same whether you are censoring it, or just calling it out as 'wrong': "We disagree, it should exist".

 

[Charrettizard]

Did anyone else get a chance to check out this interview?

It was published in the last issue of Edge and I think it is really worth perusing. Here's a choice quote

You managed to sell Juliet Starling from Lollipop Chainsaw in a market largely indifferent to female protagonists and original brands. Is your method of character creation responsible, do you think?

All of us at Grasshopper, Warner Bros and Kadokawa Games worked together to make Juliet a star in the game industry. We needed to show the players how attractive she was, so we put her at the centre of all our marketing, showing her battles against zombies using her chainsaw and her acrobatic movement, and we showed she was a strong and capable girl. I also believe having Jessica Nigri, a charismatic cosplayer, helped a great deal to make Juliet appealing to gamers by putting a real face to the character.

This just one of the reasons my enthusiasm for videogames rarely comes up in conversation.

 

[Zaventem]

Hahaha all those downvotes. Gonna buy this shit day one, they should stick to making list. Maybe a list of which woman offended them more.

 

[antitrop]

Porn content exists through multiple genres.
RPGs, strategy, driving, fishing, poker.
Dating sims have their unique mechanics as well.

Ya, Rapala's Fuck Fishing 2009 was a personal favorite of mine. Completely different game from Rapala's Fish Fucking 2006. That was a strange year for them.

 

[Tellaerin]

It's not really romantic, honestly. The game is definitely sexual in nature over romantic. You get to see what they like thanks to the glasses, but the idea is that you can only see it thanks to the glasses (see through their clothes, into their hearts, etc.). I wouldn't look too deeply into that quote.

Noted. (What can I say? I've got a romantic streak. )

 

[Easy_D]

Ya, Rapala's Fuck Fishing 2009 was a personal favorite of mine. Completely different game from Rapala's Fish Fucking 2006. That was a strange year for them.

Both of those probably exist in some shape or form.

 

[bhlaab]

Was Killer7 really that good or did it just have good cutscenes?

 

[ThoughtsOfSpeaking]

Great, more male feminist dribble. It's just getting sad at this point.

.

This.

 

[SlasherJPC]

I am thinking of making a video called | Killer is Dead: Just like Matt Lees journalistic integrity.

 

[Astarte]

Was Killer7 really that good or did it just have good cutscenes?

Plot, characters, interactions, it's dripping with style, etc. The gameplay is ass. Explainable with story ass, but ass. It's really fucking good.

 

[Wazzy]

.

This.

Let's generalize an entire group over one guys thoughts on a game!

It's getting really sad how any criticism on a game brings out all these defenders who would rather just throw out insults than actually respond to why they disagree.

 

[Game-Biz]

Uh wow...

So this game sounds like a disaster.

I hate it when overly violent games where you fucking murder people have sexist shit in it. So offending. Why can't I just kill people without demeaning women? Fuck this industry.

 

[bhlaab]

I hate it when overly violent games where you fucking murder people have sexist shit in it. So offending. Why can't I just kill people without demeaning women? Fuck this industry.

It's interesting that you conflate violence with masculinity.

 

[Zaventem]

As a fan of Suda51, this is immensely disappointing.

I don't even know if I want to get this game anymore.

Yeah like previous suda games didn't have sexual undertones. You were never gonna buy this game in the first place. Honestly you fucks who bitch about bayonetta/lollipop chainsaw/no more heroes any thing with a woman in a game with a skirt about the knee then pretend you were gonna buy it aren't fooling anyone.

 

[Monocle]

This guy would be floored by your average dating sim. His familiarity with Japanese media seems limited, to say the least.

Did anyone else get a chance to check out this interview?

It was published in the last issue of Edge and I think it is really worth perusing. Here's a choice quote


This just one of the reasons my enthusiasm for videogames rarely comes up in conversation.

I don't see anything objectionable in that quote. The whole point of Juliet is to parody ditzy female characters who exist only for fanservice. The satire doesn't work if she isn't attractive.

 

[Onemic]

GAF would be totally down with something this fucking creepy and say the dude speaking out against it is a dolt. GAF would. You dudes need to go outside some time.

 

[Astarte]

GAF would be totally down with something this fucking creepy and say the dude speaking out against it is a dolt. GAF would. You dudes need to go outside some time.

Have you ever looked back in this thread rather than just...jumping in?

 

[Esura]

Let's generalize an entire group over one guys thoughts on a game!

It's getting really sad how any criticism on a game brings out all these defenders who would rather just throw out insults than actually respond to why they disagree.

I don't think these defenders would come out like this if people weren't so damn aggressive with their criticism, to the point of insulting those who don't agree with them. Doesn't help that a lot of people take these sexism debates with games too far and too personal.

 

[Ysiadmihi]

GAF would be totally down with something this fucking creepy and say the dude speaking out against it is a dolt. GAF would. You dudes need to go outside some time.

I guess you missed the part where, you know, he was proven to be a dolt.

 

[Village]

To play Devil's Advocate, when was the last time you've seen a negative preview? Although that's more of a general GAEMS JURNALIZM issue, but still.

I have seen a few.

However they I rather a preview be a bit neutral and just convey what you know and possibly what you think may happen.

Reviews are reserved for your own personal spin n' all that.

 

[Monocle]

GAF would be totally down with something this fucking creepy and say the dude speaking out against it is a dolt. GAF would. You dudes need to go outside some time.

You're part of GAF too, you know. Let's not gloss over the diversity of opinion here.

 

[Gaogaogao]

if killer is dead could fuck off into space it totally would, and it would be awesome.

gotta go to space

 

[Lazyslob]

This video is so goddamn stupid. What should be taken as; "Oh, that's stupid." To a whole 5 minute video because this guy is insanely uptight.

 

[antitrop]

GAF would be totally down with something this fucking creepy and say the dude speaking out against it is a dolt. GAF would. You dudes need to go outside some time.

Calling this guy a dolt at this point in the game would be kind of nice.

He's practically a fraud.

 

[LordJim]

GAF would be totally down with something this fucking creepy and say the dude speaking out against it is a dolt. GAF would. You dudes need to go outside some time.

Good idea.
Maybe a relaxing time at a host club

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

I watched the video, and here’s my reply. I haven’t read the entirely of the thread yet, so please excuse my if I’ve missed something already written here! Also keep in mind this is my personal opinion, and is in no way reflective of XSEED Games, my employer.

- "You seduce women in a bar using X-Ray glasses."
Untrue. Mondo is modeled after James Bond ("Mondo" and "Bond" sound the same in Japanese), and his escapades with women were meant to be a reflection of the "man every woman wants" thing. Basically, as you progress through the game, women will call Mondo and beg for a date. You can go on these dates in locations that vary depending on the girl, not just bars, and yeah, you do what a dude who has only one thing on his mind does (not saying every dude, just that kind of dude) and stare at her a hell of a lot. The glasses are not used to seduce; they're used in a couple of ways, including as 'x-ray' glasses and to also look inside of her heart and figure out her likes and dislikes so you can give her gifts that she likes. It’s worth noting you can get by just fine without them.

- "She's referred to as a 'target'"
This is a half-truth. This is not a game where Mondo finds a chick and literally beelines towards her and relentlessly hits on her. The entire game is presented on a world map of sorts, and you scroll through various locations where you choose your missions. 'Targets' are the character you are directly interacting with for said mission, and it is used to describe both the girls in Gigolo Mode as well as your targets of execution in story mode. It's not exclusively to the women as the video makes it sound and shouldn’t be interpreted in a negative light.

- "By look at her breasts and crotch, she will, of course, like you more."
Worded incorrectly. It's true that you're basically ogling your date while she isn't looking, but if she catches you, she'll be hella pissed off. There's a meter on the right that's indicative of her mood, and if you stare too much, you obviously won't be having a very good date by the end. Some of these endings are pretty hilarious, and if you’re not into this whole Gigolo Mode thing, you might find them to be sweet justice.

- "If you are successful at checking out her nips, you gain the ability to use gigolo glasses."
Incorrect. Again, the glasses are unlockable or available as pre-order DLC.

- "ludicrously proportioned"
As a female, I'll say that's actually wrong as well. I actually changed the measurements myself in the English version to be a more accruate and proportionate reflection of their character models, since I know a thing or two about female measurements.

- "The more you stare at this woman's bosoms, the more you learn what her favorite things are"
Incorrect. The gigolo glasses DO tell you the things that she likes whether you decide to stare at her lingerie or not (hell, you can look to the side if you're uncomfortable for that part). You can also get a good idea of what each girl likes based on, well, them. Obviously a girl like Koharu, who is presented as very demure, is probably not going to like a flashy watch, and obviously a go-getter like Natalia isn't going to have any interest in a cute baby doll as a gift. Gift-giving is so ridiculously over-the-top like the rest of the game, and it's silly as all get-out. Don’t take it seriously, have fun with it.

- "But the selection of things that these women like is downright offensive."
Flowers - Not sure about how offensive giving a single red rose to a girl is. Cliche, yes, but hardly offensive.
Booze - You buy her a drink, it’s presented in the same manner as other gifts. You can give a Schnapps bottle as a gift though, but I don’t know, booze is a pretty sweet gift.
Money- INCORRECT, COMPLETELY INCORRECT. You can give a commemorative gold coin, and it does not translate to cash. You DO NOT giving cash to your dates as gifts. I cannot believe how inaccurate this is.
Worth noting that other gifts are like a Japanese fan, chewing gum, or a necklace. This video pulls pulls out the ones he finds offensive and sort of abstracts them.

- "They give you a present"
True, but he's making it sound like a trade, like, “Hey, thanks for the sex, here’s something in exchange.” The girls declare that they made a gift exclusively for you, which can be pretty interesting items. It's silly, but I interpreted Natalia as one badass chick when she made me a Drill Arm. Like, a complex device you attatch to your mechanical arm to bust walls and fight enemies. Coooooool.


- "Not about waving a flag of gender equality"
I have to admit, I hate this kind of card being pulled. Not every damn game has to be politically correct. This game actually does have characterized women outside of Gigolo Mode, including your boss whom you respect because she's business-smart and no-nonsense, your upbeat assistant, an elegant, mysterious woman, as well as targets for execution and clients who hire you to do the executing during story mode. In fact, more women are in story mode than in Gigolo Mode.

This is also Mondo’s story, a guy designed to be charismatic who cuts off heads and travels the world (and the moon, the freaking moon) for a living and meets beautiful women in the process. It’s not meant to be a politically correct game and doesn’t even try to pretend it is, which, I think, is far more offensive. And since I’ve played quite a few SUDA 51 games, I can say he’s never the type to be that politically correct in any of his work anyway- this game is, completely, a SUDA title. Is it kind of stupid? Yeah, it definitely is. You’ll either laugh at it or feel slightly uncomfortable; I was the former, as, like with anything else in a game that has tiger tattoos coming to life and unicorns and a Hansel and Gretel/Alice in Wonderland house, I noticed it was completely ridiculous. Purposefully so.

This video also doesn’t note that these missions, while a chance to gather unique and useful gifts, is completely optional. If you don’t like it and just want to play through the story? You can do that, it’s no problem. The story itself is high action, fast and furious, and full of unlockable abilities and twists and turns that do not ever require you to go on dates or try to ‘get lucky’.

I’m not going to say it’s wrong to be offended by it, but I also think he was giving misinformation and also taking it way too seriously, especially when he had some of the context of the game to go off of.

I like Matt, but all this is, yet another try, from game journalism to atract the attention of female representation problem, but instead of attacking the real problems like the lack of female protagonists or more females in leading roles in the game creation, they attack another niche Japanese game (because there isn't enough examples in the western games) while bending their arguments and facts to fit their particulary agenda (like the whole Dragon's Crown debacle).

Thanks for this response.