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[Inuhanyou]

They also said every 360 game will render in 720p and then right at launch PGR3 didn't

To be fair, that was different. They expected their high speed EDRAM configuration to give them a free framebuffer. But someone at MS fucked up and made the EDRAM size too small(10MB),which was not enough to satisfy the needs of native HD for certain titles.

This is using much more straight forward architecture.

Assuming you meant PS4 pro here ofc, it's a sizable chunk of real world performance taking the current closest graphics card equivalents (380x for PS4 pro and 390x for scorpio)

http://www.anandtech.com/bench/product/1559?vs=1592

That is true, that's why many devs on record, would want to use that GPU power for more than barely hitting UHD resolutions.

 

[cheezcake]

All this flops nonsense is about as helpful as ranking 'bits'.

Actually across the same architecture FLOPs are a very meaningful metric.

Yeah, but there's an assumption of shared architecture. Which is not the case between PS4 and XBO, and is not a guarantee.for PS4P and Scorpio.

The GPU architecture in the PS4 and XBO are 99% the same and the performance difference in the vast majority of games is very closely correlated to the FLOP difference. 1080p/900p = 1.44, 1.84 Tflops/1.31 Tflops = 1.40

 

[jroc74]

they are going to try and ride this vapor hype until the end of next year arent they..? My goodness.

They dont have a choice if they dont want folks to forget about it. Thats what happens when you announce something so early. And the competition releases an actual product.

As of right now its XBO S vs PS4 Slim and Pro. MS is going to have to trickle out info damn near every other month if they want folks to hold off buying the PS4Pro.

 

[Banderdash]

They'd best have some incredible launch games for this thing.

They're probably going to be able to include all the VR stuff from the past year and next... but there'll be some people who don't want VR games, myself included.

 

[Orayn]

Yeah, but there's an assumption of shared architecture. Which is not the case between PS4 and XBO, and is not a guarantee.for PS4P and Scorpio.

I don't really see how. Scorpio may wind up on a newer revision of GCN compared to PS4 Pro, but they're still mostly comparable.

 

[capitalCORN]

Actually across the same architecture FLOPs are a very meaningful metric.

Check my last post. PS4 and XBO are not the same feature set, they're different generations even. There's no guarantee that PS4P and Scorpio are the same architecture. We're not talking about different clocks on the same card.

I don't really see how. Scorpio may wind up on a newer revision of GCN compared to PS4 Pro, but they're still mostly comparable.

You can argue 'GCN' versions (which is nomenclature AMD already discarded). But do you think that Vega is just an upclocked Polaris, with maybe more ROPs?

 

[Shiggy]

Is it a lot of extra work? I'm not sure if 3rd parties are willing to go the extra mile if it's only really supported by an Xbox system in the near future.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Check my last post. PS4 and XBO are not the same feature set, they're different generations even. There's no guarantee that PS4P and Scorpio are the same architecture. We're not talking about different clocks on the same card.

PS4 and XBO both use the same basic sea islands architecture. The architecture changes are more down to what each of them wanted to do at the time(IE sony went with 8ACE's for asynchronous compute, MS did not ect)

 

[thuway]

You can argue 'GCN' versions (which is nomenclature AMD already discarded). But do you think that Vega is just an upclocked Polaris, with maybe more ROPs?

Not much is known about Vega outside a few slides, but it will be made on the 16 nm manufacturing process. So the "canvas" and physical size of the card should be symmetrically increased to the power and size gap between it and PS4 Pro.

 

[cheezcake]

Check my last post. PS4 and XBO are not the same feature set, they're different generations even. There's no guarantee that PS4P and Scorpio are the same architecture. We're not talking about different clocks on the same card.

Check the edit of my post. Also diff generations what? You're going to have to elaborate on that one because they're both GCN 1.1 with the only difference being PS4 has some extra features geared towards async compute.

 

[Neuromancer]

They'd best have some incredible launch games for this thing.

They're probably going to be able to include all the VR stuff from the past year and next... but there'll be some people who don't want VR games, myself included.

New Halo
New Forza
New Gears, down the road

There you go.

Conversely VR is the only reason I have an interest in Scorpio.

 

[Sjefen]

its a hard sell when you got nothing than promises.

 

[capitalCORN]

PS4 and XBO both use the same basic sea islands architecture. The architecture changes are more down to what each of them wanted to do at the time(IE sony went with 8ACE's for asynchronous compute, MS did not ect)

That makes enough of a difference to manifest itself. Not to mention smaller differences like memory structure, etc.There's no guarantee the trend suddenly bucks with the PS4P and the Scorpio.

 

[vivekTO]

Will there be two modes for scorpio as well , one for Hdtv and other one for UHD.
because if not that will be a bummer.

 

[LordBaztion]

4K TVs will become the standard 2017 onwards.

I'm probably getting one during the 2018 World Cup. Sales are insane during that time.

 

[cheezcake]

That is true, that's why many devs on record, would want to use that GPU power for more than barely hitting UHD resolutions.

First parties will output native 4k games as a mandate by MS, but yeh I agree in that I see a sizable chunk of third parties opting for reconstruction methods + jacking everything else up.

 

[JamesJoyce1882]

I'm very sceptical this will really happen. An over clocked 1080 has around 9 tflops, and that is barely enough to render modern games at 4K.

The Xbox One cannot render its games at 1080p. It is unreasonable to assume that its successor with 4 times the power will be able to render 4 times the pixels at acceptable frame rates.

 

[J_ToSaveTheDay]

I'm hoping their VR implementation isn't proprietary and they end up using one of the existing headsets. If they do announce their VR implementation in that manner, I will buy whatever headset they partner with for use with my PC and future use with my Scorpio. I'm obviously not too sure I need a Scorpio at its launch (it will depend on the launch lineup), but I will get the VR headset that gives me the most utility. Still pretty eager to get into VR, even if the software support so far seems kinda ho-hum.

 

[supernormal]

Receipts? It makes sense tho. PS4 Pro will be somewhere in between at 1800p/30 (checkerboard).

Here's Albert Penello confirming it in a thread.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=214365891&postcount=232

 

[Inuhanyou]

Will there be two modes for scorpio as well , one for Hdtv and other one for UHD.
because if not that will be a bummer.

What MS do in regards to letting devs take advantage of the power and what Sony allows devs to do aren't going to be copied to the letter, they have their own approaches that they will share with their partners.

 

[onQ123]

It's crazy to me that people don't believe a 6TF console in 2017 can do native 4K lol.

 

[capitalCORN]

Not much is known about Vega outside a few slides, but it will be made on the 16 nm manufacturing process. So the "canvas" and physical size of the card should be symmetrically increased to the power and size gap between it and PS4 Pro.

But the 480 is already '16nm'. Albeit with the move from GF to whatever the new foundry is (I haven't followed lately, probably TSMC?) probably won't end up changing much. If AMD really hopes to punch it's weight in the 1080 category, it's gonna take more than a unwieldy large die that will undermined AMD's already faltering image in efficiency.

Check the edit of my post. Also diff generations what? You're going to have to elaborate on that one because they're both GCN 1.1 with the only difference being PS4 has some extra features geared towards async compute.

I made a mistake in my original post. I should have mentioned feature set. If you want to count individual framerate output the performance metric is easy enough to manage. But there are other gaps in performance that are harder to capture. See the long list of DF flame wars about varying image quality arguments. GCN is a template, it would be like saying a 1060 is just a cut down 1080.

 

[cheezcake]

That makes enough of a difference to manifest itself. Not to mention smaller differences like memory structure, etc.There's no guarantee the trend suddenly bucks with the PS4P and the Scorpio.

You really need to give an example instead of just claiming this, have we really seen a title which performs well above the expected PS4/XB1 difference specifically due to async compute?

I made a mistake in my original post. I should have mentioned feature set. If you want to count individual framerate output the performance metric is easy enough to manage. But there are other gaps in performance that are harder to capture. See the long list of DF flame wars about varying image quality arguments. GCN is a template, it would be like saying a 1060 is just a cut down 1080.

I'm getting increasingly confused. Varying image quality is due to the almost universally lower resolution XB1 games have right? I don't see where extra features such as async compute come into this. Also a 1060 is a cut down 1080 by definition. That's exactly what an architecture is. It's a strict arrangement of hardware components into particular patterns, in which certain components are able to give increased performance through hardware repetition. A 1060 and 1080 are the same exact architecture the difference is where a 1080 has 1920 shader processors, 120 TMU's and 64 ROPs, a 1060 has 1280 shader processors, 80 TMU's and 48 ROPs. Everything else is the same. That's like the definition of "cut-down".

 

[Orayn]

It's crazy to me that people don't believe a 6TF console in 2017 can do native 4K lol.

Yeah, people ruling it out are being pretty silly. It won't be there 100% of the time (just like PS4 doesn't always hit 1080) but it's not out of reach at all.

 

[mitchlol]

I'm sceptical and will take a wait and see approach. Will be happy to be proven wrong as I'll want a Scorpio if true.

 

[Inuhanyou]

It's crazy to me that people don't believe a 6TF console in 2017 can do native 4K lol.

Nobody is saying 4K isn't possible, its possible on Pro as well with enough graphical cut backs(i'm sure pro could render ROTR at 4K at lowest PC settings for example). But those cutbacks to get there aren't worth it for a lot of devs, and its the same for Scorpio.

First parties will output native 4k games as a mandate by MS, but yeh I agree in that I see a sizable chunk of third parties opting for reconstruction methods + jacking everything else up.

yep.

 

[Primethius]

It'll be interesting to see how first party Scorpio games pan out graphically if this ends up holding true.

Unless they have TR like options with every game to increase fidelity in non 4K modes, I'm not really expecting anything stunning for most of the titles.

I just played Halo 5 on PC and it was really disappointing visually. If anything, the higher resolution made it extremely apparent how weak of a game it was graphically.

So I hope they reconsider or at least opt for multiple graphical presets. I want to be wowed.

 

[Sword Of Doom]

I'm very sceptical this will really happen. An over clocked 1080 has around 9 tflops, and that is barely enough to render modern games at 4K.

The Xbox One cannot render its games at 1080p. It is unreasonable to assume that its successor with 4 times the power will be able to render 4 times the pixels at acceptable frame rates.

Yeah if you want ultra settings and 60fps but we're talking about a console that will likely run mid-high settings at 30fps

It'll be interesting to see how first party Scorpio games pan out graphically if this ends up holding true.

Unless they have TR like options with every game to increase fidelity in non 4K modes, I'm not really expecting anything stunning for most of the titles.

I just played Halo 5 on PC and it was really disappointing visually. If anything, the higher resolution made it extremely apparent how weak of a game it was graphically.

So I hope they reconsider or at least opt for multiple graphical presets. I want to be wowed.

I feel the same way about Forza Apex. Played it maxed out at 1080p and it isn't very impressive. Horizon looks a lot nicer though from what we've seen

 

[Hesemonni]

This is going to be quoted a lot :/

 

[JimiNutz]

By the time Scorpio launches I'll probably own a 4K TV so this may actually be useful for me but I also hope Scorpio has the option to play games at 1080p with improved visuals as well.

 

[A.D. Skinner]

Day one. Also day 1 VR if proven successful. Halo 6, holy balls.

 

[Trojan]

I feel like MS is going to need to price the Scorpio at $499 or above in order not to sell each one at a loss. If they're rendering all 1st party games at 4K then it sounds like they've settled at around that 6TFlops figure and that doesn't come cheap.

I think they're going to position it even more as a premium product than the PS4 Pro. I can't see them marketing Scorpio as broadly as they have the standard X1.

 

[capitalCORN]

You really need to give an example instead of just claiming this, have we really seen a title which performs well above the expected PS4/XB1 difference specifically due to async compute?

I'm getting increasingly confused. Varying image quality is due to the almost universally lower resolution XB1 games have right? I don't see where extra features such as async compute come into this. Also a 1060 is a cut down 1080 by definition. That's exactly what an architecture is. It's a strict arrangement of hardware components into particular patterns, in which certain components are able to give increased performance through hardware repetition. A 1060 and 1080 are the same exact architecture the difference is where a 1080 has 1920 shader processors, 120 TMU's and 64 ROPs, a 1060 has 1280 shader processors, 80 TMU's and 48 ROPs. Everything else is the same. That's like the definition of "cut-down".

There's no way to analyze code on a compiled disc obviously. There are enough examples of quantifiable IQ wins for the PS4 above any framerate advantage over the XBO, when the framebuffer and framerate difference would be analogous to a brute force advantage. And if the 1060 was really a cut down 1080, it wouldn't be a separate chip (106 vs 104). It would just be whatever was binned from the 104.

 

[supernormal]

I'm very sceptical this will really happen. An over clocked 1080 has around 9 tflops, and that is barely enough to render modern games at 4K.

The Xbox One cannot render its games at 1080p. It is unreasonable to assume that its successor with 4 times the power will be able to render 4 times the pixels at acceptable frame rates.

These comparison's are always flawed. Those cards have trouble rendering games in 4k at MAX settings. Consoles games are no where near that, they run at medium settings and sometimes even low, with a bunch of effects turned off. When MS expects to hit 4k, the mean with the same quality as the Xbox One.

 

[Marlenus]

It's crazy to me that people don't believe a 6TF console in 2017 can do native 4K lol.

It's a fact of the hardware. Some games will hit it but others will be lower and upscaled.

If a game is 1080p on Xbox 1 it should hit 4k native on Scorpio. If it's 900p it will likely be upscaled from 1800p to 4k.l, If it's 720p then it'll be upscaled from 1440p.

So I can see forza being 4k/60. I can see lots of multiplats being 1800p and stuff like battlefield being 1440p.

I think you need about 12Tflops to do 4k properly and consistently. That won't be viable until the PS5 and the next gen Xbox are out which could be 2020 depending on when the next node shrink is available for high volume ramping.

 

[cheezcake]

There's no way to analyze code on a compiled disc obviously. There are enough examples of quantifiable IQ wins for the PS4 above any framerate advantage over the XBO, when the framebuffer and framerate difference would be analogous to a brute force advantage.

Ok so what you're saying is that in situations where the PS4 already has a resolution advantage which accounts for the pure FLOP difference there also exists a framerate advantage which compounds upon that, leading you to believe that it's due to the architectural differences? Sorry just trying to get your argument straightened out in my head I'm still a little confused what you're trying to say.

 

[capitalCORN]

Ok so what you're saying is that in situations where the PS4 already has a resolution advantage which accounts for the pure FLOP difference there also exists a framerate advantage which compounds upon that, leading you to believe that it's due to the architectural differences? Sorry just trying to get your argument straightened out in my head I'm still a little confused what you're trying to say.

Look at GTA5 'gate', and other numerous examples where the PS4 gains over XBO, and the settings discrepancies in Project CARS (I can't recall other ones offhand right now, but you're probably observed enough threads yourself).

 

[Bgamer90]

I definitely thought that this would be the case. I expected Forza Motorsport 7 to be 4K at 60 FPS on Scorpio. Looking forward at seeing how this turns out.

 

[Milly Osworth]

Im sure thats possible in the future. But its 2016, not 2017.

 

[strata8]

I definitely thought that this would be the case. I expected Forza Motorsport 7 to be 4K at 60 FPS on Scorpio. Looking forward at seeing how this turns out.

Seems like we'd end up with a game that looks like Forza 6 at 4K. Which kinda blows TBH.

 

[ThirdEye]

4K is hot right now, but 1 year later it will lose the shininess.

 

[PeskyToaster]

4K doesn't mean much on its own.

 

[cheezcake]

Look at GTA5 'gate', and other numerous examples where the PS4 gains over XBO, and the settings discrepancies in Project CARS (I can't recall other ones offhand right now, but you're probably observed enough threads yourself).

Uhh but GTA 5 runs at 1080p on both XB1 and PS4 so its logical the difference manifests itself in other areas? I haven't seen pCars console comparison.

 

[capitalCORN]

4K doesn't mean much on its own.

You've probably never seen 4k natively, and felt the same about HD...

 

[boltz]

Microsoft to outsource all their IPs after Scorpio launch.

LOL, that's the perfect out for them.

 

[Bgamer90]

Seems like we'd end up with a game that looks like Forza 6 at 4K. Which kinda blows TBH.

I'm expecting the same though I hope I'm wrong which is why I'm looking forward at how this will turn out.

 

[capitalCORN]

Uhh but GTA 5 runs at 1080p on both XB1 and PS4 so its logical the difference manifests itself in other areas? I haven't seen pCars console comparison.

This would be arguing the same framerate over both versions, which is not the case. I argued image quality.

 

[Trojan]

4K doesn't mean much on its own.

You've probably never seen 4k natively, and felt the same about HD...

It will be interesting to see who's 4K strategy drives more sales in the long run:

• MS doing native 4K at what will likely be a higher price
• Sony doing checkerboard 4K at a lower price point

I firmly believe Microsoft can't price the Scorpio at $399, so I obviously have that assumption built in.

 

[Self_Destructive]

The Scorpio might have other features that help justify the price.

I'm just saying.

 

[WhiteRabbitEXE]

This constant pursuit of pixels over performance is a bummer.

Kinda agree. Scorpio could run some fantastic looking 1080p games at rock solid 60fps. That said, MS has some pretty great performance in their games, so if anything what will be getting the shaft here is graphically intensive effects and whatnot, not performance.