CrashPrime
Member
Options: Why you shouldn't have them, and neither should I!
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Minecraft VR poisoning the well (Polygon, Toms Hardware etc)
- Thread starter Man
- Start date
The combination of visual rotational movements coupled with zero rotational stimulation from the inner ear will lead to a perception mismatch. It's quite obvious that this leads to nausea. It's basically the same process as getting car sick or sea sick.
That's why I think 'traditional' first-person games will have a hard time gaining traction in VR, especially when you are seemingly in first-person view of a character but moving him around with an analog stick. A cockpit works well because your brain always has the reference point of your window, HUD and instruments, which movements correspond correctly with the way your head is turning. There's no mismatch.
That's why I think 'traditional' first-person games will have a hard time gaining traction in VR, especially when you are seemingly in first-person view of a character but moving him around with an analog stick. A cockpit works well because your brain always has the reference point of your window, HUD and instruments, which movements correspond correctly with the way your head is turning. There's no mismatch.
artsi
Member
Yeah, it's not this that blocks VR from the mass market, but the barrier of entry generated by the high price and a need for a gaming PC. Those who are willing to invest in VR at this point will know this stuff anyway.
Like I said before, we'll have worse experiences and better experiences until developers learn and create "standard" solutions, but it's normal at this point.
The Elite
BOSS
It's going to be a bumpy ride.
Not really. Minecraft is a colossal IP with huge mainstream popularity.
If people's first impressions of VR are that it's nausea inducing and not worth engaging with other than sheer novelty, then it's all of VR that's going to feel that negative PR.
I mean, it certainly doesn't really do much to the enthusiast VR crowd, but if people hypothetically want VR to 'blow up' like say, the Wii did, then it's pretty bad news if VR's most popular game actually ends up making people vomit.
artsi
Member
When VR has filled the other requirements to blow up (a low price), and I'm saying years from now, I'd think that there will be better solutions for locomotion and the PR problem will also correct itself when that happens
When VR has filled the other requirements to blow up (a low price), and I'm saying years from now, I'd think that there will be better solutions for locomotion and the PR problem will also correct itself when that happens
well yeah, eventually VR will be mainstream, but "bumps in the road" like this are still frustrating to see - especially coming from a company that has talked at length about shitty VR.
unfortunately there's not much they can do to fix this. current FPS games really aren't suited to seated VR.
Bubba_Sparks
Member
If they can't do FPS out of the box then VR technology is doomed. I've been wondering why we haven't been seeing more traditional gameplay experiences as it gets closer to launch, and the difficulty of motion sickness must be the problem. The VR manufacturers need to get serious about replicating the Skyrims and Minecrafts of the world within their headsets, otherwise people will increasingly view them as a gimmick. I've yet to see a game that I want to spend 100 hours playing in VR, yet Oculus wants to charge ~$1000 CAD for thier headset. I think that is a pretty bold move that could really come back to bite them. If the early adopters and enthusiasts impressions are lukewarm, it could drag the entire appeal of the device down
artsi
Member
I agree that it's unfortunate, not a "VR is dead" level tragedy but anyway.
The game is still under development though, and I hope they can come up with some alternatives / adjustments after hearing all this feedback. Maybe the developers themselves didn't have problems and thought that this is fine.
VR doesn't have "traditional" gameplay experiences because you can't just grab Minecraft or Skyrim and expect them to work in VR. Good VR games require being built from the beginning with VR in mind
bloodydrake
Cool Smoke Luke
Thats interesting that Huds and cockpits don't cause the issue.
I wonder if rendering the edges of some kind of helmet, with a headsup display ala iron man wouldn't give that reference point for a FPS style game. or wireframe glasses etc for adventure games.
artsi
Member
Yeah, all that stuff is something to research. We've had VR for some years now with the Rift DK1 / DK2 and have basic guidelines, but in the big view it's like charting a lake when there's the whole ocean waiting.
AltissimaRatio
Banned
Argh! Dont kill my Dreams! A PSVR Version with Full VR Mode was the only Thing i ever wanted!!
So if you had a bad Experience from it dont try to determine for others!
So if you had a bad Experience from it dont try to determine for others!
The Elite
BOSS
Maybe it's just simply a case of needing time to work out the issues. It could eventually happen.
Full-immersion mode could be for the short term (before teleportation solution is developed) swapped for a stand-still lock-around mode. Hold left-trigger and you will be fully-immersed and able to look in all directions. Traversal happens in cinema-mode.
Oculus has actually experimented with this and it's called 'Tunneling': https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKnM5gC-XpY
Oculus has actually experimented with this and it's called 'Tunneling': https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKnM5gC-XpY
pinkurocket
Member
Well considering the lawsuits Nintendo had to deal with for the 3DS making kids sick, I won't be surprised if people will go after VR making them sick once it releases in a form that's affordable for the general consumer. Well, at the very least there will be mandatory health warnings that show up every time you boot up a VR game to protect them from that.
Bubba_Sparks
Member
Then VR is in huge trouble. Developers need to be able offer one game that works for both tradional and VR users. Unless I've missed something, I don't think Rift and Vive pre-orders are enough to build market for AAA games around. I don't think the majority of publishers are willing to fund expensive forays into a limited market.
I want VR to work out, but the more I look into it the lack of substance becomes apparent. How long has Oculus had the DK1/DK2 available for? Why do the games around launch look as limited as the tech demos people were thinking up and designing two years ago? Like I said earlier, where is the game that makes me want to spend 100 hours with Oculus on? Where is VR's Halo?
The % of people that experience sickness from poor control schemes in VR is an overwhelming majority (we're literally looking at numbers above 90% IME).Kouriozan said:
There's actually a good chance that DK1 low-fidelity(reduced presence) made the experience more tolerable for you. In fact I suspect for some people comfort is a non-issue because their brain simply doesn't accept current-gen VR as real.mrklaw said:
Digital is not a recipe for comfort in of itself, but it does make bad control schemes more tolerable. In fact I've also seen movement schemes where acceleration curves actually (considerably) improve comfort over digital.
You obviously do not understand VR or what it is. I'm also guessing you've never tried it. VR isn't in huge trouble. I actually can't believe how many times I've said this on gaf:
VR is currently for enthusiasts. VR will not be mainstream immediately. VR will slowly grow in popularity over time. HTC/Valve/Oculus/Facebook know this. They have said this many times. They are in this for the long run.
It will take time for VR games to be made that you could spend 100 hours in (even though many Vive games I could probably spend that long in). VR doesn't need it's own "Halo". You keep comparing traditional games to VR games, which is exactly what you shouldn't do, as we've seen with Minecraft VR - just adding VR support to existing games does not work.
The Elite
BOSS
I wonder if we will see a VR related death this year. Injuries will happen.
It's going to be an interesting ride these next few years and there will be some controversy.
thats interesting. Although maybe more useful for games where you walk and then explore an immediately surrounding area. Can't imagine it'd be that useful for games where you want things to happens as you're walking around.
Sure - so build an imaginary FPS from the ground up - how would you move? If you have solutions for that, why couldn't they be applied to an existing game like minecraft?
Zalusithix
Member
No, this is exactly the wrong way to think about it. Figuring out how to cram the square peg of traditional gaming into the round hole of VR is a kludge fix at best.
VR doesn't need to replace our traditional gaming experiences at all. All it needs to do is provide complimentary experiences that are fully tuned to its strengths. Sure things are rough and somewhat gimmicky right now, but devs are just learning all the dos and don'ts for the medium. Grand experiences will come with time. We've had decades of perfecting the art of making games on a traditional screen. Expecting the same from VR right out of the gate is unreasonable.
I suppose those young enough that they've only ever known the more refined products might not see this as something that's self evident. Anybody that's old enough to have experienced gaming evolve over time should be conscious of it though.
Wrestlemania
Banned
Room-scale. The Vive is showing off the massive advantages of that right now and is less than a month from shipping.
But for locomotion beyond the size of your room - no one has figured that out yet. No one has the answers. A great way around it currently is something like Hover Junkers, where you're on a ship so then your room becomes "moveable".
It's a hard fact to swallow, but if you want to actually walk freely around a VR world, you're either going to have to settle for analog stick movement or buy a treadmill lol. People are just going to have to deal with it. Personally, I don't want to teleport everywhere in every game. That's lame. Sure, I got a bit nauseous the first few times I played HL2. But it was AWESOME being able to run freely and move through the whole scene. Running around in Minecrift is AWESOME. Some people aren't going to be able to handle it but that doesn't mean it should be taken away from everyone.
It's dysfunctional. This isn't just a tiny subset of people that experience nausea.
Good suggestion.
I was thinking that since Minecraft is block oriented, you could add a "block vehicle" ... basically a floating block that moves smoothly in the six cardinal directions. Your avatar would stand on this block, and you'd be able to look around and interact with the environment from there. Like other VR demos we've seen, you wouldn't be able to leave the boundaries of the block, but you'd be able to direct the block where you needed to go.
Maybe they can give everyone a horse and you ride around on that as a cockpit equivalent
I realise some of the current limitations around moving in areas larger than room scale, but I really hope someone works out a reasonable solution soon - I love me some walking simulators and they could be amazing in VR
I realise some of the current limitations around moving in areas larger than room scale, but I really hope someone works out a reasonable solution soon - I love me some walking simulators and they could be amazing in VR
Portugeezer
Member
Some people have a high tolerance for this type of thing, but it would be a shame if the majority get motion sick from one game. Hopefully they will figure it out.
Moon_frogger
Member
If people are getting violently ill while attempting to play on foot FPS this is a problem. You can't just release a product that makes people projectile vomit. even if it's half the population....or a third. or a quarter. Even if one out of eight people experience severe nausea while playing minecraft in first person, you can bet there will be no first person minecraft on psvr. People will sue. Seriously though, how common is this? Have I been shielded from it by HYPEGAF?
I think there needs to be a combination between room tracking and teleportation. Like something as soon as you try to get over the boundary to be teleported couple of meters beyond but faced in the opposite direction ( or a different direction) so it makes you turn away from the "wall".
KratosEnergyDrink
Member
It IS completely unrelated to the 3DS. There is no medical reason a 3D Screen or movie could make your eyes worse. But it is a fact that a minority of people can not adjust to 3D view and get dizzy.
There has been advise to not let very small kids <6 looking at 3D pictures. Some people feared that small kids eyes could learn to adjust false. But there is no medical explanation for this either. Nonetheless Nintendo played it safe and gave advice to turn 3D off for small children.
I'm sure Oculus is well aware of the locomotion sickness issues and will have the full immersion mode behind warnings and such. The Oculus store on Gear VR has a "comfort level" rating for each app that users that are susceptible can use to gauge. If anything, Oculus has been overly strict about it so far since they've been known to reject apps from the Gear VR store for fear of causing too much discomfort. This saddens me, since I have strong "VR legs" and haven't had any nausea problems with anything I've tried yet; Minecrift and HL2 VR on DK1 included.
People should be aware of VR sickness and should cut their teeth on fixed camera or cockpit experiences before trying anything with stick/KB first person movement/turning. These issues should be resolved with time, where more games are built with VR in mind. Until then, options are a good thing.
People should be aware of VR sickness and should cut their teeth on fixed camera or cockpit experiences before trying anything with stick/KB first person movement/turning. These issues should be resolved with time, where more games are built with VR in mind. Until then, options are a good thing.
lukeskymac
Member
Isn't it too early in the thread to be blatantly be pulling stuff out of your ass? I mean, post #30, come on.
KratosEnergyDrink
Member
Nonsense. All people with epilepsy constantly sue console makers too?
Chairmanchuck
Member
A question for those having experienced a CV1 or DK2.
Does Oculus still have a menu, where you have to input the eye distance? In the DK1 you had to input the eyedistance, so it will not lead to nausea and similar things, but on conventions they just used the average one.
Does Oculus still have a menu, where you have to input the eye distance? In the DK1 you had to input the eyedistance, so it will not lead to nausea and similar things, but on conventions they just used the average one.
The CV1 actually has a physical lever on the HMD itself which is convenient.
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