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[Dreams-Visions]

whats the science behind people getting sick with VR? i know for me.. i get car sick super easy, i cant read or play my vita while in the passenger seat... but ive never gotten nauseous playing games sitting at home. things like Mirrors Edge or whatever other games made people sick... i was fine with.

So i know sitting still and moving my head the normal range of motion... isnt like riding in a car... the inner ear equilibrium is moving completely differently when paired with visual stimulus in both cases.

Ive not tried VR yet... but if it is like trying to play games while driving... fuck that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gpr0FE2ATaY

You'll find a lot of things here. Really, you just have to purchase games that are adhering to good design principles.

 

[BlastProcessing]

I dont think the Vr headsets can afford to drop any games.

They also can't afford to make their first wave customers ill. Two different priorities that seem to conflict here. They are going to need to make a choice.

whats the science behind people getting sick with VR? i know for me.. i get car sick super easy, i cant read or play my vita while in the passenger seat... but ive never gotten nauseous playing games sitting at home. things like Mirrors Edge or whatever other games made people sick... i was fine with.

So i know sitting still and moving my head the normal range of motion... isnt like riding in a car... the inner ear equilibrium is moving completely differently when paired with visual stimulus in both cases.

Ive not tried VR yet... but if it is like trying to play games while driving... fuck that.

Car and sea sickness are Motion Sickness. Getting sick from playing Mirror's Edge or VR is Simulation Sickness. They are different things even though they have a lot in common.

Both involve a discongruity between what your inner ear and your eyes are experiencing. The best (or at least my favorite) theory on why this happens is that when your brain revives the conflicting signals, it thinks that they are being caused by poison. So it naturally tries to empty your stomach.

Simulation Sickness can be designed around. The best practices for VR design are being hashed out right now. The problem is that Minecraft VR is using none of them. You can't just take a pre-existing game and put it in VR and expect good results.

 

[Dreamwriter]

For the most part it's only games not made for VR that give you motion sickness - it tends to happen when you use a controller (or worse, mouse) to turn rather than using your head/body to turn. It doesn't happen if you have a point of reference where your brain wouldn't expect to feel the turn, such as if you're in a vehicle cockpit. It also doesn't seem to happen in games with third-person cameras (as long as that camera isn't doing sudden jerks/turns of course).

 

[Dreams-Visions]

They also can't afford to make their first wave customers ill. Two different priorities that seem to conflict here. They are going to need to make a choice.

Minecraft can wait. Nobody is rushing to buy into VR for Minecraft anyway, let's be real. If VR Minecraft really is the work of one Mojang employee + 1 advisor, they haven't dedicated nearly the resources to VR to make it even worth mentioning. Leave it cooking on the pot with proper time and resources until they can do it *right*. Then revisit a launch window.

 

[mrklaw]

Minecraft can wait. Nobody is rushing to buy into VR for Minecraft anyway, let's be real. If VR Minecraft really is the work of one Mojang employee + 1 advisor, they haven't dedicated nearly the resources to VR to make it even worth mentioning. Leave it cooking on the pot with proper time and resources until they can do it *right*. Then revisit a launch window.

I am.

Not *only* for minecraft, I'm also in for the tech generally. But minecrift on DK1 was amazing and I love minecraft generally. The combination of Minecraft and VR would be utterly fantastic if they can solve this issue.

 

[Durante]

For the most part it's only games not made for VR that give you motion sickness - it tends to happen when you use a controller (or worse, mouse) to turn rather than using your head/body to turn.

From my experience with a lot of games and over quite some time, a mouse is not in fact worse than a controller, it's a bit better.

This was really surprising to me at first -- I expected the opposite, just like you claim -- but it does make some sense. What really seems to hurt is the rotational movement of the camera, not so much the change in direction (which is also why some games have a feature deliberately making rotational changes only possible in jumps of larger increments by e.g. 20 degrees). With a mouse, you have very little time spent rotating, and something much closer to a direct jump from direction A to direction B, which is less nausea-inducing.

They also can't afford to make their first wave customers ill. Two different priorities that seem to conflict here. They are going to need to make a choice.

As I said earlier in the thread, the idea of removing an existing option seems terrible to me as a PC gamer. If you are scared about impressions, put it into a hidden .ini with a warning or a command line parameter, but don't outright take it away.

 

[AwesomeMeat]

whats the science behind people getting sick with VR? i know for me.. i get car sick super easy, i cant read or play my vita while in the passenger seat... but ive never gotten nauseous playing games sitting at home. things like Mirrors Edge or whatever other games made people sick... i was fine with.

So i know sitting still and moving my head the normal range of motion... isnt like riding in a car... the inner ear equilibrium is moving completely differently when paired with visual stimulus in both cases.

Ive not tried VR yet... but if it is like trying to play games while driving... fuck that.

The basic gist of it is this:. Your brain is being told to experience one thing while your inner ear which is responsible for sensing movement is not receiving the same cues.

This can be thought of as people getting seasick. Your brain knows you are holding still while the boat is getting tossed around your inner ear is disagreeing. I don't get sea sick and I also don't experience any VR sickness. Despite this there are still things that feel better in VR than others. Having camera control taken away from your head movement and frame drops are unpleasant.

The good news is most people develop "VR legs", a lot like people get their "sea legs".

 

[Dreams-Visions]

I am.

Not *only* for minecraft, I'm also in for the tech generally. But minecrift on DK1 was amazing and I love minecraft generally. The combination of Minecraft and VR would be utterly fantastic if they can solve this issue.

Oh. Well sorry to hear that. Yea hopefully they figure it out. They can start by putting an actual team on the VR release instead of making it one guy's pet project.

 

[Dreamwriter]

The good news is most people develop "VR legs", a lot like people get their "sea legs".

I disagree there, I don't think "most people" develop VR legs. A few do, and a few more end up with less sensitivity. But the rest just get sicker and sicker as they try to push through it, until they have to stop, and then they'll feel sick for hours.

 

[AwesomeMeat]

I disagree there, I don't think "most people" develop VR legs. A few do. The rest just get sicker and sicker as they try to push through it, until they have to stop.

Well I can only speak for myself really and what I know of people developing sea legs. People can and do adapt to boats.

It obviously helps to limit your exposure to prevent sickness. If you feel sick, take off the HMD. You should find that you adapt and build a tolerance over time.

 

[wanderingprostheyltite]

Seems like this needed more time in the oven for control styles when Carmack was helping them. Also not giving people the option to decouple the head movement from turning was a huge oversight imo. Hate that kind of scheme for VR. For creative mode they should at least use a blink or fade in/fade out transition for movement for those that can't handle full movement in survival. This has been one of my most anticipated releases for cv1, sucks to see its not up to snuff. They'll probably take this in stride and implement changes though.

 

[BlastProcessing]

From my experience with a lot of games and over quite some time, a mouse is not in fact worse than a controller, it's a bit better.

This was really surprising to me at first -- I expected the opposite, just like you claim -- but it does make some sense. What really seems to hurt is the rotational movement of the camera, not so much the change in direction (which is also why some games have a feature deliberately making rotational changes only possible in jumps of larger increments by e.g. 20 degrees). With a mouse, you have very little time spent rotating, and something much closer to a direct jump from direction A to direction B, which is less nausea-inducing.

As I said earlier in the thread, the idea of removing an existing option seems terrible to me as a PC gamer. If you are scared about impressions, put it into a hidden .ini with a warning or a command line parameter, but don't outright take it away.

I would be fine with hiding it as a compromise, but I think good design is often about removing options. That's just a philosophical difference. What ever they end up choosing will be telling. It will show me what their priorities are.

The good news is most people develop "VR legs", a lot like people get their "sea legs".

I don't think that is exactly true. First of all, Sailors have to redevelop their "seas legs" every single time they go back out to sea. Every time they go back on those Crab boats they have to fight through illness to get to the other side. That won't fly here for obvious reasons.

At last years GDC I talked to a lot of VR devs and one story that kept coming up was "That one time I experimented with something and immediately made myself so ill I couldn't work for the rest of the day".

 

[Zalusithix]

I would be fine with hiding it as a compromise, but I think good design is often about removing options. That's just a philosophical difference. What ever they end up choosing will be telling. It will show me what their priorities are.

The complete removal of an option is anathema to most PC gamers. Options, mods, etc. are seen as rights of sorts. To remove something completely with no way to restore it is asking for backlash.

 

[KiraXD]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gpr0FE2ATaY

You'll find a lot of things here. Really, you just have to purchase games that are adhering to good design principles.

They also can't afford to make their first wave customers ill. Two different priorities that seem to conflict here. They are going to need to make a choice.




Car and sea sickness are Motion Sickness. Getting sick from playing Mirror's Edge or VR is Simulation Sickness. They are different things even though they have a lot in common.

Both involve a discongruity between what your inner ear and your eyes are experiencing. The best (or at least my favorite) theory on why this happens is that when your brain revives the conflicting signals, it thinks that they are being caused by poison. So it naturally tries to empty your stomach.

Simulation Sickness can be designed around. The best practices for VR design are being hashed out right now. The problem is that Minecraft VR is using none of them. You can't just take a pre-existing game and put it in VR and expect good results.

The basic gist of it is this:. Your brain is being told to experience one thing while your inner ear which is responsible for sensing movement is not receiving the same cues.

This can be thought of as people getting seasick. Your brain knows you are holding still while the boat is getting tossed around your inner ear is disagreeing. I don't get sea sick and I also don't experience any VR sickness. Despite this there are still things that feel better in VR than others. Having camera control taken away from your head movement and frame drops are unpleasant.

The good news is most people develop "VR legs", a lot like people get their "sea legs".

interesting! thanks guys!

 

[Kareha]

The basic

The good news is most people develop "VR legs", a lot like people get their "sea legs".

I wish I could develop sea legs, last time I tried travelling on a ferry was 2 years ago and I was extremely I'll on my friend

 

[MrGerbils]

I would be fine with hiding it as a compromise, but I think good design is often about removing options. That's just a philosophical difference. What ever they end up choosing will be telling. It will show me what their priorities are.



I don't think that is exactly true. First of all, Sailors have to redevelop their "seas legs" every single time they go back out to sea. Every time they go back on those Crab boats they have to fight through illness to get to the other side. That won't fly here for obvious reasons.

At last years GDC I talked to a lot of VR devs and one story that kept coming up was "That one time I experimented with something and immediately made myself so ill I couldn't work for the rest of the day".

I don't get motion sickness being on a boat, or reading in a car, or anywhere else I can think of.

But when I first got the DK2 I played a bunch of Minecraft running around full speed like I would normally play the game, for maybe 30-45 minutes or something, gradually getting more sick as I went, until I finally took it off. I literally still felt a little woozy the next day.


I think a lot of people when they're imagining VR are thinking about playing Skyrim or CoD or any other existing game, but feeling like your'e really there. Those experiences don't really work with current VR for a variety of reasons, and the real experiences people will get are things like Budget Cuts and the Valve demo with certain restrictions in place to combat VR's limitations.

That said: racing games, flight sims, space sims, mech games, etc should all be INCREDIBLE.

 

[Candescence]

I think probably the best optional compromise for first person or even some third person experiences would be to have the player be inside some kind of cockpit-like moving chamber that doesn't really collide with anything or obscure your vision, but provides a reference point for your brain so it thinks that the chamber itself is moving rather than your own body, with an additional translucent 'capsule' or a circle in the middle of the 'chamber' for first-person games marking your main collision area so the player knows where they should be standing most of the time and where the player is receiving collisions with the world, while the player's body takes collisions from other things like attacks and such.

... Now I'm reminded of the cockpit chambers from Mobile Fighter G Gundam.

 

[wanderingprostheyltite]

Charlie Hall from Polygon didn't get any nausea...

...but apparently the lod is terrible on the Gear version:

Once I broke free from the prepared environment and ran off into the world, I immediately noticed how details were only visible out to a stone's throw away, a distance of perhaps 40 or 50 blocks. Past that, the edge of the rendered space manifested itself as an opaque white wall. Underground, in the pitch dark, that wall actually lit entire caves, meaning I could glitch the game into giving me enough light to see.

Some good quotes from Carmack here:

About a year ago I got Minecraft on the Gear VR and I couldn’t tell anyone about it," said Carmack. "And it was extremely frustrating because I was playing this game and I could spend hours playing. [...] I thought it was the best VR experience that we had available. For anything.

In VR, I want to go explore the world," Carmack said. "I think that the ability to be wireless, to spin around and have that freedom, really makes this a unique experience. [...] Minecraft hits all of those buttons very, very well. It is the quintessential open-world game, and being able to explore that world in VR was what I always thought the core of this was all cracked up to be.

Hope the launch is indeed soon, can't wait to play Minecraft in VR on a plane.

 

[Man]

If I understood Road to VR podcast correctly, not only does the GearVR version run in a monoscopic view but it also (intentionally as told by devs) skipped every third frame (and saved with a timewarp/reprojection?).
Must have been a mis-communication in regards to simulation updates or something.

 

[wanderingprostheyltite]

If I understood Road to VR podcast correctly, not only does the GearVR version run in a monoscopic view but it also (intentionally as told by devs) skipped every third frame (and saved with a timewarp/reprojection?).
Must have been a mis-communication in regards to simulation updates or something.

Well the monoscopic is disappointing if true. Figured Carmack would be able to squeeze proper stereo 3d out of it.

 

[Quasar]

I guess I'm confused: why would anybody want to play in a virtual cinema? How is anything less than full immersion appealing?

Pretty much my view too. Though if it always causes motion sickness I can see why you'd avoid it. Kind of makes me question vr as it exists.

 

[DOWN]

Venturebeat dubs Minecraft VR "pixelated claustrophobia"
http://venturebeat.com/2016/03/21/minecraft-for-gear-vr-in-2-words-pixelated-claustrophobia/

 

[CadetMahoney]

They also can't afford to make their first wave customers ill.

I just wonder if the onus on the customer to "acclimatize their brain" to their product and if they can't take it on the chin and weather any adverse effects, tough shit?

Can software and hardware be returned for health reasons even after when the warranty expires? "It was fine for me but then my teenage son tried it and got sick, money back plox".

EDIT: Wrong thread this was supposed to be in the 4k thread and replied to the wrong post!

 

[mrklaw]

as it has been bumped - new minecraft mod for HTC Vive - motion controls supported and movement via teleportation to avoid nausea

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8xkNHl_Bwo

 

[Zaptruder]

as it has been bumped - new minecraft mod for HTC Vive - motion controls supported and movement via teleportation to avoid nausea

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8xkNHl_Bwo

The motion implementation is pretty cool... and the teleportation is a good implementation of teleportation (some details could be improved).

But I think this is a game that'd do better with blink step rather than teleportation.

Moreover, there's a modified blink step method that is kinda like a shift step - instead of a straight up teleport, it's a very quick step forward (so 2-3 frame transition rather than 1 frame), which is quick enough to not induce any motion sickness, but helps to improve the actual sensation of movement and motion signficantly, especially compared to straight up teleportation.

Alternatively, they could do more frequent smaller blink steps (i.e. 30cm every 300ms instead of 1m per 1 second) to provide a granular sense of motion that doesn't trigger motion sickness.