Sony has addressed this issue with technotes on how to properly implement AF in the code, but they cannot force developers to turn it on. It is the developers' responsibility to use it properly.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
PS4's AF issue we need answers!
- Thread starter pixlexic
- Start date
Sony has addressed this issue with technotes on how to properly implement AF in the code, but they cannot force developers to turn it on. It is the developers' responsibility to use it properly.
JohnnyWestlake
Banned
Are we for some insane reason assuming engine developers - who quite clearly implemented AF on Xbox One and other platforms and are generally rather smart, technical people - for some reason do not know how to implement AF, a technique used and refined for many years, and instead need some notes they probably knew anyway? There must be another, more specific reason.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2015-dishonored-definitive-edition-face-off
Kinda funny that there's this "why call devs lazy" thread around 'cause I see no other explanation for this shit anymore.
Why would this be an issue of laziness if it's being implemented in the game on other platforms?
Freedom = $1.05
Banned
that dishonored port is pretty crappy regardless of platform. That game ran on dust and potato juice on the PC at max settings and 1080p, they mustve spent $5 on that port for it to be so poor.
Yes. I happen to have worked with rendering programmers who cannot see AF unless I point out to them, but they are perfectly capable of implementing AO or fixing alpha blend issues and such.
Also when porting a game using established game engines you just assume something will work. Issues need to be pointed out by QA but if they cannot see it, programmers may not notice.
JohnnyWestlake
Banned
I don't buy it. Unless we're assuming there's some sort of developer conspiracy where Xbox One developers are all smarter than PS4 developers. It's not like it just happens out of nowhere on Xbox One - you still need to do work to do it.
40 pages for you to read up, maybe you'll buy it then.
Interfectum
Member
It might be way easier or even on by default on XB1.
Hey I'm just speaking from my project experience.
The settings are there for both platforms, but the PS4 version has bugs.
The porting team may not really know the PS4/Xbox one version has issues or not,
So the Xbox one version has AF simply by having no such bugs in the code.
For porting teams that have less experience (likely the case in Dishonored which is a UE3 game and UE3 on PS4 was notorious for having this kind of issues) this could really be the case. It is not lazy, but you may say it is incompetence.
Kenzodielocke
Banned
Yeah, that's the most likely reason. Look at the DMC reboot, they bumped AF without any performance lost whatsoever.
It's more likely in this case that direct porting from PC to Xbox one is a bit easier than to PS4 as the Xbox one API is essentially a mix of dx11 and 12.
It is most likely an oversight caused by slightly different implementations that was missed in QA. As has been done before it should be very easy to patch but it should not really happen in the first place.
Dying light too.
Kralamoonard
Member
Ugh that makes it even more frustrating; I don't see why devs under value the impact of AF; it makes images look more cleaner and objectively better.
Like if it was an issue with the hardware I'd understand, but it's pure incompetence. I mean DmC and Dying Light added much better AF at no cost of performance. Just imagine how each game would benefit by looking better if they had a better implementation of AF.
E.g: the CoD games, Destiny, MGSV, and all the other games that have issues with this.
I mean it's one of the first things I noticed with the games above and how muddy the textures look, and I'm not even that guy who has an eye for things or is picky with gfx or 30fps...
I don't know how it gets past devs or even QA; I honestly think it does a disservice to games like that because they look beautiful but could look even better at no performance cost.
Interfectum
Member
You gotta understand though, in a multiplatform environment, things like weak AF on PS4 can easily fall through the cracks. When compiling to all these systems there are hundreds if not thousands of bugs they have to tend to. Most likely the Xbox gets a pass because it's either on automatically or as easy to implement as checking a box.
The only way the AF situation on PS4 will get better is if Sony makes it extremely easy to implement and/or people keep making a big stink about it. Tweet directly at the devs porting the game, etc.
dealer-
Member
Because Sony has reportedly left a note for developers to remind them about AF but this still keeps happening.
Kralamoonard
Member
Yeah I get ya...especially with the last paragraph.
But I mean do the textures not look muddy at all to them when playing through the game? I mean yeah there's bugs etc to take care of, and I'd love to say it isn't obvious, but honestly it is to me and I normally don't pay that much attention to these things. Maybe because they play test on smaller monitors? Idk?
Again, how is it laziness if they're doing doing the work to make it functional?
rbanke
Member
forgive me if its been answered in this thread. Could this then simply be a factor of the PS4's api leaves it off by default where the Xbox, OpenGL & D3D on pc are on by default? Or even the engines that are being licensed, do they leave PC & Xbox filtering on anisotropic but PS4 off/trilinear?
Reposting again in case some people have forgotten or don't see it last time -
Reading in between the lines it sounds like the implemention is not as "obvious" as when developing for XB1/PC. With Dishourned I would guess budget/time is the reason why PS4 doesn't have it going with the above theory of the implemention not being as obvious. Not the devs being lazy.
Reading in between the lines it sounds like the implemention is not as "obvious" as when developing for XB1/PC. With Dishourned I would guess budget/time is the reason why PS4 doesn't have it going with the above theory of the implemention not being as obvious. Not the devs being lazy.
Same with ultra street fighter 4
its easily added, they just seem to not notice lol
dr_rus
Member
Precisely because it is implemented on other platforms - thus they've already made an effort but were too lazy to check if it's working correctly on PS4 and fix it since it isn't.
thatJohann
Member
nah it can't be lazy programmers. they would know by know. from all the digital foundry coverage and threads. I assume these programmers are gamers as well. must be something with the ps4
Why would you come to that conclusion? The posts you've quoted make it clear it's down to failing to check they've properly implemented it, that not going to require another $500K.
If anything its a clear case of mild incompetence. Let's not forget that in total, looking at all games released, more than 80% of the time (heck probably way over 90% of the time) devs clearly had no issue enabling AF.
They're missing it on occasion either due to not having it as part of their QA/QC process adequately or because they think they've enabled it correctly when they haven't,
The ease with which it's been patched in post release in some cases also makes it clear it's no big effort they can't afford.
Most likely (as here with UE3) it's down to devs using engines developed on PC (and hence DirectX) vs PS4's API and SDK and drivers.
On another note I love how this thread gets a bump whenever a dev misses this but oddly doesn't get a bump every time a game releases with AF implemented fine. It would bump a lot more in the latter case and it's pretty telling it only tends to get a bump in the former.
You should not assume anything because the truth may always surprise you. I was also surprised before at how few people, even otherwise avid gamers, care about these things. I was like this is totally visible and they are like what? They have to compare two screenshots to know the difference.
Spyder_Monkey
Banned
It's really not though.
thatJohann
Member
Well, as a single console owner (PS4), it annoys me to know that I could potentially always have the best looking version of a multiplatform if it wasn't for the lack of AF. And if I had both consoles (XBO and PS4), it would make it tough to choose which version because for me AF is so crucial to IQ.
I'm trying to understand why a game developer would add proper AF to the XBO port, and not to the PS4 port. This makes me think it's PS4's fault, not developer's fault. Just my two cents.
AtomicShroom
Member
Because it is on by default in the XBO SDK and off by default in the PS4 SDK, and they never bother to turn it on?
It's not a matter of Lazy Programmers, but of experience with a given set API.
The Xbox One's is derived from DX, so probably quite familiar. Not the case for the PS4's (does not appear to be "difficult", just not familiar and easily looked over in the process.)
As discussed previously, the problem might also stem from the tools possibly used to convert DX code to Sony API.
qa_engineer
Member
You have to keep in mind that the PS4's API isn't Directx, but GNM or GNMX (which has directx compatability). And while they aren't worlds apart, there are enough differences to make porting or multi platform game development not as seamless as one would imagine. To enable AF on Xbox one coming from a PC port may not require any code changes or additions; however, doing so on PS4 may require lines of code to enable such features in GNM.
Because it's likely not a conscious decision for various reasons...
- different teams working on different platforms, so they don't notice that something is different
- different implementation on the different platforms...if its "auto on" on one but not the other (speculation)
- translations between various coding languages
Almost all of the instances we see are Xbone Yes, PS4 No...not situations where the Xbone has a higher level of AF than the PS4 version...and a bunch of those games have been updated to include AF on the PS4 at no performance cost, or at least completely negligible...
That tells me it's not a hardware issue..
Also, even in the instances when the Xbone has AF when the PS4 doesn't, I'm not sure "proper AF" is the word we should be using..as both consoles tend to be on the lower end (2x, 4x) AF instead of 8x or 16x that you would get on the PC side...
Most of the evidence points towards something in the development process..not the hardware
If a port is lazy, the devs arent going to bother taking extra steps outside of just transferring code.
The PS4's API is set up that you have to manually adjust it and it takes a different approach than XB1. But its not 'hard' in that it taxes the PS4 in any way. Its a software limitation, not HW.
Almost every port that has had AF issues with post release support has been patched to have it fixed. DmC, Street Fighter, Dying Light and many more
thatJohann
Member
great analysis, I just think that by now Sony might've taken a more active approach like updating the API or SDK or policing ports and saying that at least 4x of AF is mandatory for any ps4 game moving forward. sounds strict but I keep getting puzzled.
qa_engineer
Member
Ha. You said shat.
This is probably the biggest concern troll thread of them all so not surprised it keeps cropping up.
RedAssedApe
Banned
also...a lot of times i'm assuming they leave it up to QA to point things like this out.
in the case of dishonored i wonder how much money was even spent on that. also it could be that QA testing just completely misses these kind of visual things that aren't game breaking because the people play testing aren't necessarily the type that can see the difference between or even care about the difference in image quality.
the people claiming that programmers can necessarily tell the difference or will notice...you'd be surprised.
this might be apples to oranges but i kind of liken it to how people in IT you have amazingly smart computer science professors (and its not even the super old ones) calling us to help setup their e-mail or installing basic software applications. most people would think that engineers automatically know their way around things.
i guess that could also be applicable in the sense that the programmers making these games aren't as familiar with the API and need someone to point them in the right direction.
just rambling now...lol
in the case of dishonored i wonder how much money was even spent on that. also it could be that QA testing just completely misses these kind of visual things that aren't game breaking because the people play testing aren't necessarily the type that can see the difference between or even care about the difference in image quality.
the people claiming that programmers can necessarily tell the difference or will notice...you'd be surprised.
this might be apples to oranges but i kind of liken it to how people in IT you have amazingly smart computer science professors (and its not even the super old ones) calling us to help setup their e-mail or installing basic software applications. most people would think that engineers automatically know their way around things.
i guess that could also be applicable in the sense that the programmers making these games aren't as familiar with the API and need someone to point them in the right direction.
just rambling now...lol
My conclusion comes on the nature of the port given it's something that clearly hasn't had the time, testing, budget etc as other remasters that are to a good standard. Am leaning more towards time because I assume they were not given the resources they needed by publisher Bethesda in order to make it to a good standard because based on the PC version the port should be of a higher quality.
It could be incompetence as you said so.
dr_rus
Member
If such a basic feature as AF isn't on the conscious of the developers making the port / game then I will call them lazy since there are few things out there which are easier to use while providing noticeably higher image quality than enabling AF in any API out there.
This is a dev's/QA fault, there is no question about this. There are no reasons why a PS4 version of a game should use lower AF than an XBO one.
i think thats probably a good way to go about things...default on 4x AF, and then let the developers go from there...i know for instance SMS uses varying levels of AF on different surfaces in pCARS...and im pretty sure that there are variances in The Order as well...but you can tell in those cases, that if the developer is taking the time to vary the levels across surfaces, or from scene to scene that they are doing it consciously, and for a reason (likely optimizing performance)...so i can deal with that
but see thats where you're missing the point...we are not seeing ANY examples of the PS4 having LOWER levels of AF than the Xbone version...its just completely non-existent...THAT tells me that there is a disconnect somewhere in the development process that causes it to fall through the cracks...and im not willing to chalk it up completely to laziness...its happened to often for that to be the case...but its also very clear its not a hardware limitation by any means...
SneakyStephan
Banned
Extreme incompetence then.
How do they work on a game, test it then not IMMEDIATELY notice that there's no AF.
It's something you immediately notice. Not some rare hidden glitch or occurence you could glance over. It's not something you need to be looking for to notice.
Literally every single person involved in the development of a game at the moment it went gold should have noticed that there was no AF.
I refuse to believe that this is something anyone can overlook,let alone everyone working on a game at the same time.
SMOK3Y
Generous Member
How many actual game has this happened too realistically?
JRW
Member
I can confirm this since I played through it on a GTX 480 @ 1080p Maxed @ 60fps, Digital Foundry also pointed out PC version runs 100fps on a dual core i3 + GTX 750 TI video card.
Even Mad Max has questionable performance on the consoles.. It doesnt take much power to maintain 60fps on PC version yet PS4/XB1 is capped @ 30fps with the occasional drop below that (wtf?)
We don't know because only a few games get a technical analysis.
a handful, a few dozen? that we know of because they get face off tech analysis
thats not the point im trying to make though...there were a string of games that it happened in, and a handful of those have been patched without issue..its NOT hardware...and im not willing to think that devs would just not care about the PS4 version of the game, especially considering its sizable lead in install base...
so to me, the most logical issue is a problem with AF in Sony's tools...either its harder to implement, or it doesnt play nicely with certain engines (UE3 is a common theme), or there is a small bug, or whatever...
plenty of devs have proven that the hardware is more than capable...
Kralamoonard
Member
Another victim of PS4's AF issue...
I don't know why devs. undervalue the effect of anisotropic filtering on image quality; it vastly improves it, and to me is one of the most notable things when it comes to graphical quality. And it's got little performance cost (see the DmC performance pre and post AF patch on PS4).
I don't know why devs. undervalue the effect of anisotropic filtering on image quality; it vastly improves it, and to me is one of the most notable things when it comes to graphical quality. And it's got little performance cost (see the DmC performance pre and post AF patch on PS4).
Thankfully it got called out while the game is still in beta. Hopefully they look into it before release.