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[OléGunner]

Um, yeah their terminology might be a bit corny but they are right. People buy more consoles (and things in general) during the holidays. Not much to debate there, so having big exclusives releasing in that time frame help push sales even further.

Yeah that's beyond obvious.

Duh Xmas=more sales.

Point is people act like its wrong to release titles in the "off season" lol
Then you see folks acting like all Sony's releases so far in 2015 don't matter.

We don't just play games during the holidays man.

 

[Melchiah]

So how is everyone feeling about Sony's E3 now? We know there won't be any big surprises for this year, but do you think they will finally let us know about the games and new IPs in the works?

I'm hoping that, especially with no Gamescom, this E3 is finally the time they reveal the big games.

How do we know that? People are quick to forget, that Sony has lately announced games later, and closer to the release. Bloodborne is a good example, as it was announced at last year's E3.

 

[RiverKwai]

Pretty much all I'm really hoping/expecting from E3 in the way of a "surprise" is a NMS and a P5 release date announcement. It seems like many people will be surprised if those drop in 2015,

Not a megaton, since they'd be doing exactly what they said they'd do - but a number of people seem to take the cynical view.

 

[Zyae]

Yeah that's beyond obvious.

Duh Xmas=more sales.

Point is people act like its wrong to release titles in the "off season" lol
Then you see folks acting like all Sony's releases so far in 2015 don't matter.

We don't just play games during the holidays man.

Um, well thats when blockbusters sell. Its the same thing with Movies. There are certain months where movies come out dead on arrival and the studios know this. Despite what you may think a developer releasing a game in april may june is not the same as september october november

 

[Frag Waffles]

It's honestly astounding how well MS PR spin of "pre season" and "only holidays count" has actually worked on so many here on Gaf.

We all laughed when we first heard it but now they are so many believers.

Truly masterful work by Greenberg and co.

If you think it's worked on GAF, you'd be astounded to see how it has worked elsewhere. MS has literally trained its fans to obsess over the "holidays" and ignore everything else with just a few PR statements.

 

[mrklaw]

It is all about expectations. Sony killed it last generation and that set the bar extremely high this generation. Sony is not blameless though they need to get better control over the first party studios. To let GT6 development go that long was a disaster and a mistake. It will be basically over 2 years from launch till the PS4 gets a heavy hitter first party game in UC4. The guys who are in charge of the first party studios should thank god every day they have jobs. They took the best fist party studios in the world and drug them down to mediocrity.

Perhaps the guys who are in charge of the first party studios were tasked with bringing in some income for Sony by supporting PS3 deep into its lifecycle? And although they knew the risk was a weaker lineup of PS4 games initially, that was a decision that they had to/wanted to take.

I agree about GT though. And maybe add Team ICO to that. Developer freedom is really important, but there is such a thing as too much freedom. Polyphony is like Quentin Tarantino - incredibly talented but they need someone to say no to them sometimes.

 

[Melchiah]

Um, well thats when blockbusters sell. Its the same thing with Movies. There are certain months where movies come out dead on arrival and the studios know this.

Yeah, The Last of Us sure bombed because it was released in the Summer on the PS3. The same goes for , say, God of War 3, that was released in March back then.

 

[akidnamededdy]

GT6 and LBP3
last year and the year before. So its not unprecedented.

Ahh, that's right. Well this'll be fun then!

Halo 4 have done damage to the franchise? Go to bed..! Halo 4 has the best campaing of all Halos out there! and rigth now MCC is up and RUNNING !!

People should update their news, what is next? Xbox ONE has DRM or it is always Online?

Man I still can't get into a BTB game as of yesterday night, and Halo 4's plot was crazy and the big battles lacked the scope of earlier games.

 

[Nafai1123]

Um, yeah their terminology might be a bit corny but they are right. People buy more consoles (and things in general) during the holidays. Not much to debate there, so having big exclusives releasing in that time frame help push sales even further.

There's a difference between "hey, we can sell more hardware/software during the holiday" and "only games that release during the holiday count."

This pre-season stuff is a joke. I don't think anyone actually takes it seriously.

 

[Nouzka]

Um, well thats when blockbusters sell. Its the same thing with Movies. There are certain months where movies come out dead on arrival and the studios know this. Despite what you may think a developer releasing a game in april may june is not the same as september october november

So why does for example Batman Arkham Knight release in June? And Last Of Us did pretty well when it was released June. Every big game doesn't need to be released at end of the year.

 

[LegendofDragoonLives]

It's honestly astounding how well MS PR spin of "pre season" and "only holidays count" has actually worked on so many here on Gaf.

We all laughed when we first heard it but now they are so many believers.

Truly masterful work by Greenberg and co.

These are probably the same people who think Matrick or whatever his name is solely responsible or 99% is all on him for X1's anti-consumer policies until E3.

People shouldn't be surprised too much.

 

[goonergaz]

Yeah, The Last of Us sure bombed because it was released in the Summer on the PS3. The same goes for , say, God of War 3, that was released in March back then.

yeah, I want all my games released in the same 3 month window every year or I'm not buying.

 

[Nafai1123]

Um, well thats when blockbusters sell. Its the same thing with Movies. There are certain months where movies come out dead on arrival and the studios know this. Despite what you may think a developer releasing a game in april may june is not the same as september october november

You heard it here first guys. Mad Max is not actually one of the best action movies of all time because it released in May.

 

[urbanOSU]

Regardless of what position the PS4 is in, your comment is stupid.

It's a classic first post in a Sony 'Where's the Games?!' thread though, it hits all the buttons in one barely legible paragraph. You missed out on 'Sony is coasting' but you did put in 'resting on their laurels' some I'm awarding you that point.

Welcome to Gaf.



lol. It's like they have to wipe their arse using the whole roll of toilet paper first go, instead of rationing it out between poos ... I mean posts.

Its not necessarily the No games per say. You had the fiasco of Driveclub, being delayed for a year, Infamous missed launch window, and was delayed till Feb. And then you had the order 1886 delayed from holiday 2014 until Spring 2015, which left a hole in Sonys lineup, and when it finally did release, was very average. Now we have Uncharted missing this holiday window, and delayed until the spring. If his job is to manage first party studios, and exclusive content, aside from Bloodborne, I would argue thats not a great track record. I say this as a fan of both consoles. I have owned pretty much all the consoles back to the intellivison, so I dont want this to seem like Im bashing sony, I just want to see the quality we are accustomed to , this is what made the ps3, in my eyes, a much better console, than the 360.

 

[Newtype-001]

Ahh, that's right. Well this'll be fun then!

Personally i think the chances of a new first party game releasing this fall is pretty slim unless its an Uncharted Collection.

 

[nib95]

Um, yeah their terminology might be a bit corny but they are right. People buy more consoles (and things in general) during the holidays. Not much to debate there, so having big exclusives releasing in that time frame help push sales even further.

Yes clearly, as evidenced by the amazing DriveClub, Little Big Planet 3, Forza Horizon 2 and Sunset Overdrive sales...

/s

The problem is, as much as people spend and buy more during Fall, there's also a hell of a lot more to choose from as well, and the different games available cannibalise each others sales, to the point where it's often only the big fish that really shine. In that sense it can make better sense to spread releases throughout the year, Eg Titanfall, InFamous Second Son, Bloodborne etc, all of which did fairly well.

 

[The Mad Draklor]

Um, yeah their terminology might be a bit corny but they are right. People buy more consoles (and things in general) during the holidays. Not much to debate there, so having big exclusives releasing in that time frame help push sales even further.

No one is questioning the importance of the holiday season. The point is that all the other months of the year are important even if sales will not be as huge. Also, your last sentence is debatable because the 3rd party lineup for this holiday season is immense. Consumers can only buy so many games in such a short time period. In my opinion, not releasing exclusives in close proximity to those 3rd party games will help both the consumers and developers. The exclusives do not get drowned out by other high profile games while consumers are given some breathing room.

 

[Inuhanyou]

So how is everyone feeling about Sony's E3 now? We know there won't be any big surprises for this year, but do you think they will finally let us know about the games and new IPs in the works?

I'm hoping that, especially with no Gamescom, this E3 is finally the time they reveal the big games.

We're gonna get hype for a lot of things that will eome in 2016 no doubt, but don't count your chickens before they hatch on no new announcements for this year. Uncharted Trilogy and Gravity Rush Remaster are basically almost fully confirmed at this point.

I think the turnaround for remasters is much faster, like 6 months

 

[OléGunner]

Um, well thats when blockbusters sell. Its the same thing with Movies. There are certain months where movies come out dead on arrival and the studios know this. Despite what you may think a developer releasing a game in april may june is not the same as september october november

Dude did you read my earlier post?

I agreed that more sales are done during the holiday!

I'm just saying that this thread is full of people saying game releases don't count during the first 9 months, this is irregardless of the sales angle.

To your sales argument, you're not even thinking of how the landscape for game releases is changing especially for 1st party releases. 3rd party titles usually dominate the holiday, so now more than ever it makes sense for hardware manufacturers to release during the so called "off season".

You can give you're first party game a better spotlight/marketing push/not force consumers to make hard purchasing decisions. Look at how great The Last of Us sold summer 2013.

Don't you think Sony would've shat out U4 in holidays if they thought it still wouldn't sell truckloads in Spring?
Edit: My TLoU point was beaten by Nouzka haha

 

[Ishan]

Ppl keep forgetting if it wasn't canned we would have an aaa new up from ssm last winter too

 

[Megatron]

Yeah that's beyond obvious.

Duh Xmas=more sales.

Point is people act like its wrong to release titles in the "off season" lol
Then you see folks acting like all Sony's releases so far in 2015 don't matter.

We don't just play games during the holidays man.

'All of Sony's releases '? Bloodborne, a baseball game and the order, right? Bloodborne is awesome, no doubt, but the rest of the stuff they released is pretty forgetable. I assume that's the real issue, people would count them if yet were great games.

 

[breakfuss]

"Third parties are what sell consoles!" lololol. It'll be okay, gaf.

 

[TheUnsunghero26]

Just to compare what's already out (retail) in terms of 1st (IP owned and owned studio) and 2nd party (IP owned but external studio).

Sony 1st:
Killzone Shadowfall (GG)
Knack (SCEJ)
TLOU remastered (ND)
Driveclub (Evo)
MLB 14 (SD)
MLB 15 (SD)
Infamous 2nd Son (Sucker Punch)
Singstar Ultimate Party (SCEE)

Sony 2nd:
LBP3 (SumoD)
The Order 1886 (RaD)
Bloodborne (From/ SCEJ)

MS 1st:
Forza 5 (Turn10)
Kinect Rivals (Rare)
Halo MCC (343i)

MS 2nd:
Forza Horizon 2 (Playground)
Zoo Tycoon (Frontier)

With MS there's been a ton of third party buyouts (Ryse, Dead Rising, Sunset Overdrive, Shape Up, Fighter Within, Titanfall, Fantasia Music Evolved, Screamride, etc.), but these are not 1st or even 2nd party.
I really don't see where the idea of MS pushing "more 1st party titles than Sony" comes from...

Ryse, Sunset Overdrive, and Screamride are not "buy outs". They're games funded by the publisher making them first party games. Also the fact that MS owns the ScreamRide IP. And then there's digital games like Ori, Killer Instinct, Max, Powerstar Golf, Project Spark, etc.
Not sure why people want to discount digital games on both sides. They are a big part of Sony and Microsoft's output this gen.

 

[MatrixMan.EXE]

So how is everyone feeling about Sony's E3 now? We know there won't be any big surprises for this year, but do you think they will finally let us know about the games and new IPs in the works?

Of course they will. Which is why I don't understand why people are using Sony's comments about their holiday line up this year as some sort of indication that we should temper out expectations for their E3 conference. The mental gymnastics going on in this thread is borderline embarrassing.

 

[MrMatt555]

Of course they will. Which is why I don't understand why people are using Sony's comments about their holiday line up this year as some sort of indication that we should temper out expectations for their E3 conference. The mental gymnastics going on in this thread is borderline embarrassing.

Oh, you. You know more than we do so spill it, already. lol

 

[goonergaz]

Ryse, Sunset Overdrive, and Screamride are not "buy outs". They're games funded by the publisher making them first party games. Also the fact that MS owns the ScreamRide IP. And then there's digital games like Ori, Killer Instinct, Max, Powerstar Golf, Project Spark, etc.
Not sure why people want to discount digital games on both sides. They are a big part of Sony and Microsoft's output this gen.

but a lot of those are not exclusive to XBO, and if you want to add digital it's even greater weight on the PS4 side (exclusive wise)

 

[TomShoe]

"Third parties are what sell consoles!" lololol. It'll be okay, gaf.

Implying that's not the truth

 

[OléGunner]

'All of Sony's releases '? Bloodborne, a baseball game and the order, right? Bloodborne is awesome, no doubt, but the rest of the stuff they released is pretty forgetable. I assume that's the real issue, people would count them if yet were great games.

Yeah, I agree the output has not been completely stellar across the board so far.

But we still have a few more 1st party things to come before we make a final judgement call. I'm not doing list wars here either.

Sure nothing as grand as Halo but could still be great games in their own right.

 

[breakfuss]

Implying that's not the truth

Implying it mattered to most of you before Sony released this statement.

but as I said it'll be okay, friends. Whatever helps you sleep. The battle most go on lol.

 

[vin-buc]

Another list wars thread.

I think Sony's output is fine for 2015 (the question is that fiscal or calendar - it's an investor meeting).- they have 5 - 6 exclusives and for what we know has released/releasing - there are 3 exclusive AND new IP's (The Order, Bloodborne, Until Dawn). That's a pretty good number - if they have something for the fall/winter - that's icing on the cake.

 

[TheUnsunghero26]

but a lot of those are not exclusive to XBO, and if you want to add digital it's even greater weight on the PS4 side (exclusive wise)

Sure, I'm not trying to say which console has more exclusives (which should be an objective). I'm talking about the output of Microsoft Studios as a publisher, which releases games on both Xbox and PC

 

[Purest 78]

Um, yeah their terminology might be a bit corny but they are right. People buy more consoles (and things in general) during the holidays. Not much to debate there, so having big exclusives releasing in that time frame help push sales even further.

How does that benefit anyone other than the company? I want games all year round, if anything I game less during the holidays. Holidays is for family and mainly my kids.

 

[Begaria]

Ryse, Sunset Overdrive, and Screamride are not "buy outs". They're games funded by the publisher making them first party games.

Ryse and Sunset Overdrive ARE third party exclusives - Microsoft doesn't own the IP despite funding the games. Crytek owns Ryse and Insomniac owns Sunset Overdrive. To be a first party title, the console manufacturer must own the IP, regardless of who develops it. It's why the likes of Killer Instinct is a Microsoft first part despite being developed by a third party (Double Helix, then Iron Galacy), or Little Big Planet 3 is first party despite being developed by a third party (Sumo-Digital). The upcoming Rime on PS4 is first party since Sony owns the IP, despite being brought to them by Tequila games. The upcoming Quantum Break for Xbox One is first party because Microsoft owns the IP despite being developed by Remedy.

 

[Servbot24]

Implying it mattered to most of you before Sony released this statement.

but as I said it'll be okay, friends. Whatever helps you sleep. The battle most go on lol.

It's what the entire thread is about, what else are people supposed to say.

 

[DNAbro]

Implying it mattered to most of you before Sony released this statement.

but as I said it'll be okay, friends. Whatever helps you sleep. The battle most go on lol.

I'm a bit confused. Are you saying that it didn't matter to (most of) us that 3rd party games are the reasons consoles sell? or are you saying that we don't care about 3rd party games?

 

[TheUnsunghero26]

Ryse and Sunset Overdrive ARE third party exclusives - Microsoft doesn't own the IP despite funding the games. Crytek owns Ryse and Insomniac owns Sunset Overdrive. To be a first party title, the console manufacturer must own the IP, regardless of who develops it. It's why the likes of Killer Instinct is a Microsoft first part despite being developed by a third party (Double Helix, then Iron Galacy), or Little Big Planet 3 is first party despite being developed by a third party (Sumo-Digital). The upcoming Rime on PS4 is first party since Sony owns the IP, despite being brought to them by Tequila games. The upcoming Quantum Break for Xbox One is first party because Microsoft owns the IP despite being developed by Remedy.

Can you find a source for that? I've previously linked to Phil Spencer saying that first party game is anything they publish/fund.

Edit: Hell, Insomniac is even introduced as a "first party partner" at MS E3 2013.

 

[WordsintheWater]

'All of Sony's releases '? Bloodborne, a baseball game and the order, right? Bloodborne is awesome, no doubt, but the rest of the stuff they released is pretty forgetable. I assume that's the real issue, people would count them if yet were great games.

So are we supposed to count games that haven't released yet? Do we somehow know that Halo 5 will be good or that Tomb Raider will be?

 

[SmokedMeat]

Can you find a source for that? I've previously linked to Phil Spencer saying that first party game is anything they publish/fund.

He's wrong.

 

[xxracerxx]

Can you find a source for that? I've previously linked to Phil Spencer saying that first party game is anything they publish/fund.

Edit: Hell, Insomniac is even introduced as a "first party partner" at MS E3 2013.

Insomniac develops for Sony as well...so they are not first party. Second party would fit better.

Second-party developer is a colloquial term used by gaming enthusiasts and media often used to describe two different types of game development studios:

1. Independently owned studios who take development contracts from the platform holders and what they produce will usually be exclusive to that platform.
2. Studios who are partially or wholly owned by the platform holder (also known as a subsidiary) and what they produce will usually be exclusive to that platform.

In reality, the resulting game is first party (since it is funded by the platform holder who usually owns the resulting IP), but the term helps to distinguish independent studios from those directly owned by the platform holder. These studios may have exclusive publishing agreements (or other business relationships) with the platform holder, while maintaining independence. Examples are Insomniac Games (which previously developed games solely for Sony's PlayStation platforms as an independent studio) and Game Freak (which primarily develops the Nintendo-exclusive Pokémon game series).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_developer

 

[Begaria]

Can you find a source for that? I've previously linked to Phil Spencer saying that first party game is anything they publish/fund.

Edit: Hell, Insomniac is even introduced as a "first party partner" at MS E3 2013.

Aside from Wikipedia, and how you feel about Wikipedia entries, no, not really:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_developer

2nd Party development doesn't technically exist either as it's just 1st Party development with a slang term. Killer Instinct on Xbox One would un-officially be called 2nd party as, even though Microsoft owns the IP, the majority of the work is done by a third party they do not own, even though Microsoft likely has a good portion of creative control.

Basically, it works like this.

1st Party Developer - owned by the console manufacturer that makes games specific to that console manufacturer's hardware (i.e. 343 Studios/Halo for Xbox, Naughty Dog/Uncharted for PlayStation).

"2nd" Party Developer (still first party) - not owned by the console manufacturer that makes games specific to that console manufacturer's hardware and that console manufacturer owns the IP. This is like Metroid Prime or Donkey Kong Country Returns developed by Retro for Nintendo's platforms. Nintendo owns Metroid and Donkey Kong, but they don't own Retro. This is Iron Galaxy working on Killer Instinct, despite not owning the IP, but not being owned by Microsoft. This is Sumo-Digital, not owned by Sony, but worked on Little Big Planet 3.

3rd Party - typically this is an IP not owned by the console manufacturer and typically not published by a console manufacturer. This is the majority of games - like the upcoming Batman: Arkham Knight which is owned by Warner Brothers and being developed by Rocksteady (neither of which are owned by any of the console manufacturers). 3rd Party Exclusives are exclusives owned by that developer (or separate publisher) specific to one console (and/or PC).

Dragon Quest Heroes, coming to PS4 later this year on October 13th, is a 3rd party exclusive. The IP is not owned by Sony, nor was it developed by Sony. However, Bloodborne, which came out in April, was developed in tangent with Sony Japan and From Software (a development company Sony doesn't own), though Sony owns the IP entirely making Bloodborne a first party title. Sunset Overdrive, despite being funded by Microsoft, is owned wholly by Insomniac - Insomniac can take that IP and put a sequel (as I don't know the conditions of the agreement) on any platform it wishes, but if it were a first party title (i.e. owned by Microsoft), there would be no way that IP would see the light of day on any other platform. Rise of the Tomb Raider, whether it's timed or not, isn't a first party title (even though Microsoft is publishing it) because the IP is owned by Crystal Dynamics which in turn is owned by Square Enix, neither of which Microsoft owns.

Clear as mud, right?

 

[TheUnsunghero26]

Insomniac develops for Sony as well...so they are not first party. Second party would fit better.

Yeah, Insomniac is definitely not a first party studio (sorry if my wording was poor there), but their games with MS and Sony end up as first party games.

In reality, the resulting game is first party (since it is funded by the platform holder who usually owns the resulting IP)

Edit:

Clear as mud, right?

Haha, I think that is where the problem lies. Everyone seems to have a different definition of what it really is. I used to think differently until I heard Phil Spencer explain it. Anyway, this has been an interesting conversation, but I should probably stop from derailing the thread even further. Maybe worth starting a separate thread?

 

[xxracerxx]

Yeah, Insomniac is definitely not a first party studio (sorry if my wording was poor there), but their games with MS and Sony end up as first party games.

I would just call it an exclusive game and be done with it, personally. Hell, and in the case of SO, Insomniac still retains the rights to the IP (a major reason it wasn't on PS4, if I remember correctly).

 

[StealthGoblin]

My personal opinion is that if the console manufacturer doesn't own the IP, it's not first party. First party games can't appear on another platform without the platform holders consent.

Technically Alan wake, sunset overdrive, ryse etc could end up on playstation. Sony are a lot more strict with their publishing. If they publish it you can be almost certain they own it in its entirety and probably own the engine too.

 

[Begaria]

Yeah, Insomniac is definitely not a first party studio (sorry if my wording was poor there), but their games with MS and Sony end up as first party games.

In reality, the resulting game is first party (since it is funded by the platform holder who usually owns the resulting IP)

That bolded part is very important - it depends entirely on who owns the IP. Sony owns the Ratchet and Clank series that Insomniac develops, making Insomniac's work on the franchise a "first party" development since they do not own it. Microsoft does not own Sunset Overdrive as an IP, despite funding it, Insomniac does, thus making Sunset Overdrive a third party exclusive for Xbox One.

 

[autoduelist]

Why are people under the incorrect assumption that Xbox has more games?!

Because it's clearly the 'narrative'.

 

[Newtype-001]

I always saw it as

1st Party titles be anything where the company owns the IP. E.g even though the order 1886 was made by RaD sony can give that IP to Naughty Dog and they can make The Order 1998 or something.

2nd party as where the platform holder publishes the game but doesn't own the IP e.g MS with Tomb Raider or Sony with Guilty Gear in EU making it exclusive.

3rd party as when the platform holder doesnt own the IP but a title still releases exclusively for it. E.g Persona 5

There are some grey areas but yeah

 

[TheUnsunghero26]

That bolded part is very important - it depends entirely on who owns the IP. Sony owns the Ratchet and Clank series that Insomniac develops, making Insomniac's work on the franchise a "first party" development since they do not own it. Microsoft does not own Sunset Overdrive as an IP, despite funding it, Insomniac does, thus making Sunset Overdrive a third party exclusive for Xbox One.

Though it does have the word "usually" in it (and the fact that its Wikipedia lol). I wouldn't use third party exclusive, because MS did work on the game, and just saying "Third Party Exclusive" would make it seem like its no different than say, BioShock in 2007, which MS had no part in.

Though maybe this conversation is worth spinning off into its own thread?

 

[Begaria]

Though maybe this conversation is worth spinning off into its own thread?

Nah, not really. It's been debated back and forth I've noticed. Once and awhile the topic comes up, but usually ends up with nothing accomplished.

 

[xxracerxx]

Nah, not really. It's been debated back and forth I've noticed. Once and awhile the topic comes up, but usually ends up with nothing accomplished.

Yeah, you will never get a concise answer to this, it is all just wordplay and how the individual views it.

SO is definitely third party exclusive in my mind, no matter if MS helped development or not.

 

[BlackBuzzard]

Yeah, you will never get a concise answer to this, it is all just wordplay and how the individual views it.

SO is definitely third party exclusive in my mind, no matter if MS helped development or not.

I agree simply because Microsoft does not own the IP.