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The Project Gotham Racing Appreciation Thread

Shaneus

Member
Again, correct. I think I need to start getting more involved in the PC side of racing games just for the sheer amount of customisation that happens. But sadly, the games that get that treatment sit far too firmly in the "simulation" camp for me to enjoy.

I had F355 Challenge on Dreamcast, too. Was a gift, originally screwed my nose up at it at the thought of only having one car. Until I played it ;)
 
Ok that's it I had this game a long time ago when I had a 360. Just bought a new slim and I think I will go grab a used copy since it is so dirt cheap. It will hold me till Forza comes out
 
Shaneus said:
There's just something about UK developers that can pull off. A certain vibe, I guess. Often saw it with earlyish Psygnosis stuff and Bizarre almost always did a perfect job of it.

I just want to say how much I agree with this. The PGR and Wipeout series are what kept me interested in gaming and the full throttle intros were such a huge part of that.
 

Jamesways

Member
amar212 said:
Everybody who plays racing games for more than 3 weeks after initial release would. But that audience is not the core for achieving high-sales numbers.

Cars are what attracts general audience and make for tasty reviews and pleases the media and general public. Cars are main casual-audience selling point because cars are object of wishes for ordinary people. Driving games create an illusion where Average Bob can drive Ferrari, Lamborghini, Mercedes and Porsche. OK, maybe not Porsche.

Because of that tracks have become less important in overall picture and developers gladly accepted that. Tracks takes more time to create, licensing tracks can be expensive, traveling and visiting real-life locations is also expensive, detailed tracks are pain in the ass to program resources-wise and *saving* on tracks looks like a viable solution. Hell, who am I kidding. It IS a viable solution.

I will never get bored of highlighting original F355 Challenge game (PS2 version). One single car. 10 tracks. And Magic Weather engine. Magnificent, magnificent game.

However, emphasis on cars - and Forza does it deliberately, from Jalopnik to Top Gear, it is all about the cars - and trends in modern marketing and promotion will leave all players who seek for their tracks unsatisfied. And unfortunately, that tide will be hard to stop.


It drives me absolutely crazy. You've read me harping on this before, but it makes me nuts especially since Turn10 is touting the ALMS license/partnership. They didn't add any new ALMS tracks, just the same 4 (out of 9 this year, 10 if you count St. Petes from last year), 3 of which we've been racing since FM1. The fact that the ALMS car list got cut doesn't help either.

Add the fact that they put up polls on fm.net about what real world tracks people want most, and then completely ignore the demand for Spa and Bathurst, instead using their resources to give us another fictional mountain track simply to show off the lighting engine.

It's just sad when games like PGR, Shift 2, and Race Pro offer a ton of tracks and track varieties, both real world and fictional. I'll never understand this car collecting mentality some devs and gamers have.



Anyway, going through the PGR4 career again, it's so incredibly enjoyable. I've preferred PGR3, but the graphics, weahter, and tracks just make it a blast to go through again.
 

Shaneus

Member
enzo_gt said:
Did any Bizarre guys land on their feet at Turn10?
I believe the chief sound engineer (or similar) did. No-one else, though. Shame, I'd love to have seen a graphic designer or UI guy make the transition over... love their aesthetics.
 
Brilliant games, i've had PGR 1-4 and Blur, the death of Bizarre was a sad day.

Used to play a lot of PGR 2 online in the old xbox days, little bit of last man standing in the Mini's :)

PGR4 is the best racing game i've played, so underrated. Not that it matters but i 100% achievements on it and used to love the matchmaking system, was really interesting to do that in a racer.
 

Shaneus

Member
Jamesways said:
It drives me absolutely crazy. You've read me harping on this before, but it makes me nuts especially since Turn10 is touting the ALMS license/partnership. They didn't add any new ALMS tracks, just the same 4 (out of 9 this year, 10 if you count St. Petes from last year), 3 of which we've been racing since FM1. The fact that the ALMS car list got cut doesn't help either.
Just to touch on this, a similar thing happened with 3 and the Australian V8 Supercars. The AU version of the game came with a non-removable addition to the cover with "ZOMG OFFICIAL V8 SUPERCARZ!" on it, yet it only had two different cars each with two different liveries. Zero Australian tracks that are actually used in the series.

Suffice to say, I've hardly driven either of those cars.
 

TwiztidElf

Member
Best thread ever.
My favorite devs of all time, and I don't think they'll ever be topped.

BC2.jpg

I also have Blur of course.

Fuck Activision.
If Kotick hadn't pussied out on the F1 licence, Bizarre would still be around, and we'd have great F1 games (instead of that Codemasters turd).
 

TheOddOne

Member
Shaneus said:
I believe the chief sound engineer (or similar) did. No-one else, though. Shame, I'd love to have seen a graphic designer or UI guy make the transition over... love their aesthetics.
Yeah, Bizarre's Audio Manager Nick Wiswell is now a Creative Audio Director at Turn 10 Studios.
 

harrytang

Member
This thread convinced me to pick up PGR4 at Gamestop for the second time. Forgot how much fun of a racing game this is. 5 dollars for the game and 1 for all of the DLC. Not a bad deal. If anyone hasn't tried this game out now is the time. Even the F series cars are fun as hell to drive.
 

Alexios

Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
MSR looked incredible. Shame they couldn't optimise it a little further and instead put graphical settings like tire smoke to let you decide between frame drops and eye candy, lol, but yeah, it was jaw dropping either way. Edit: shit, it still looks competent outside the aliasing, lots of nice geometry in the tracks and the cars look solid. Wtf, Wii developers?
 
-bakalhau- said:
My next challenge is... I dare you to find a better 'Ring in any other game. PGR4 'Ring = Most beautiful 'Ring.

http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/9605/9da02abd42514c078392c6c.jpg
[img]http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/1975/281b31dc008e4a95ae330a8.jpg
[img]http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/6207/d2165dfe52b547909b3391e.jpg
[img]http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/2950/db8278c9252e4cc3ba3770f.jpg[/QUOTE]



gt5 (and some pc versions) beats pgr4's ring to a bloody pulp... 2d trees and all:

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/VucRg.jpg

layout and visually superior. the ring in pgr4 is ugly and no seasonal environment change can reverse that.

challenge completed successfully.
 

mclem

Member
Xun said:
It's very possible a future version may be headed by ex-Bizarre guys.

But I'm not getting my hopes up. :(

I've said a few times: Nintendo could *really* do with a Proper Racing franchise; it's a genre they don't really cover. Nintendo: FIND THESE GUYS. Stick them on the Wii U, or maybe the 3DS (Yeah, it'd be a step down graphically, but on the other hand, 3D does a heck of a lot for Ridge Racer)

Nintendo get to cover one of the bases they miss out on, Bizarre effectively gets a second lease of life, and everyone wins!
 

Shaneus

Member
Hey. This thread hasn't been updated in a while. Have some pictures that I painstakingly copied from my 360 to USB to PC. They're bitmap as that's the format they're originally in, but aren't that big... so deal with it :p
















Keep in mind that I did all of these going by the IQ from my TV (which is rather cheap) and wasn't really looking to create great photos, so I didn't tweak them as much as I should have. But, PGR love is PGR love so enjoy :)

Also, keep in mind that most of these were taken in 2007. Bizarre were masters of the 360.
 

Shaneus

Member
You know, I think I'd be happy if the peak of this gen means pushing out something with PGR4-like graphics and effects that runs at 60fps.
 
Need your help guys. I just re-bought PGR2 again and I want to get the DLC for it and put it on my Xbox 360. Anybody know how to do this?
 

Shaneus

Member
SOL. XBL for original Xbox games was disabled/switched of a year or so ago. There may be a hacky way to get it on there (maybe) but your chances are pretty fucking slim.
 

Xun

Member
I've seen it posted before, but has anyone got the pictures of PGR3 (or maybe 4) which shows the geometry of the models? I wouldn't mind seeing it to help with something I'm working on.
 

TJP

Member
I see you found our little Bizarre Creations fan forum Shaneus! Ex-BC staff were posting very interesting tidbits but alas they stopped doing so some time ago. All are no doubt busy doing other things nowadays but I would have loved to read more insider info on their games.

As for PGR4, it remains my favourite racing game on the Xbox 360 & one of my all-time favourites. The PGR series is the sole reason I bought an Xbox 360 as I loved PGR2 on the old Xbox (and the F1 series on the PS).

Viewing the fantastic photos in this thread makes me smile. BC were technically brilliant & amongst the most talented developers in gaming. There must be something in the British Isles water as the UK had an seemingly endless supply of fantastic developers who all created visually stunning racing/driving games.
 
3 > 2 > 1 > 4

I could never get in to 4. No idea why. It just didn't grab me. Not a bad game, but I played it about 1/100th as much as the other games, so I have to rank them like that.

I got 3 with my 360 on launch day and I think it took me like 2 or 3 days to get all platinums. One hell of a game. Fucking classic <3
 

Hoo-doo

Banned
Playing PGR3 and PGR4 over XBox Live with my friends was such ridiculous amounts of fun.
I'd give anything for a proper sequel. PGR3 was my first 360 game, and my first experience with the series. I was hooked immediately.

I still occasionally pop in the PGR4 disc out of the blue, and race the entirety of the Nurburgring in the Ariel Atom A300 in the pouring rain.

Great games.
 

Xun

Member
3 > 2 > 1 > 4

I could never get in to 4. No idea why. It just didn't grab me. Not a bad game, but I played it about 1/100th as much as the other games, so I have to rank them like that.

I got 3 with my 360 on launch day and I think it took me like 2 or 3 days to get all platinums. One hell of a game. Fucking classic <3
I can't help but read this in Mark Kermode's voice now...
 
3 > 2 > 1 > 4

I could never get in to 4. No idea why. It just didn't grab me. Not a bad game, but I played it about 1/100th as much as the other games, so I have to rank them like that.

I got 3 with my 360 on launch day and I think it took me like 2 or 3 days to get all platinums. One hell of a game. Fucking classic <3

No, 3 had horrible physics. So no.
 
It's been years since I played it but at the time it felt like the best blend of sim and arcade I'd ever played.

Maybe the physics weren't anything to shout about, but I couldn't care less to be honest.
 

Shaneus

Member
3 > 2 > 1 > 4

I could never get in to 4. No idea why. It just didn't grab me. Not a bad game, but I played it about 1/100th as much as the other games, so I have to rank them like that.

I got 3 with my 360 on launch day and I think it took me like 2 or 3 days to get all platinums. One hell of a game. Fucking classic <3
You've dropped so, so far down the ladder my friend. PGR4 still manages to be replayable long after I've finished all the seasons, purely based on the environments and sublime-as-shit driving model. The most fun I've ever had in SP with a driving game I've ever had, hands down. Not to mention that it's graphics still manage to give FM4 and GT5 a run for their money.

I see you found our little Bizarre Creations fan forum Shaneus! Ex-BC staff were posting very interesting tidbits but alas they stopped doing so some time ago. All are no doubt busy doing other things nowadays but I would have loved to read more insider info on their games.

As for PGR4, it remains my favourite racing game on the Xbox 360 & one of my all-time favourites. The PGR series is the sole reason I bought an Xbox 360 as I loved PGR2 on the old Xbox (and the F1 series on the PS).

Viewing the fantastic photos in this thread makes me smile. BC were technically brilliant & amongst the most talented developers in gaming. There must be something in the British Isles water as the UK had an seemingly endless supply of fantastic developers who all created visually stunning racing/driving games.
<3
 

SmokyDave

Member
Recently re-discovered the fantastic PGR4 after a house move. It's bitter-sweet to be enjoying the game so much knowing that Bizarre have folded :(

This gen has wrought devastation all over racing devs here in the UK. Fucking sucks.
 

Krilekk

Banned
Recently re-discovered the fantastic PGR4 after a house move. It's bitter-sweet to be enjoying the game so much knowing that Bizarre have folded :(

This gen has wrought devastation all over racing devs here in the UK. Fucking sucks.

Well, it was their own choice. They quit PGR and the thriving community because they were pissed at Microsoft giving them hard milestones. How you can have a problem with that and THEN SELL OUT TO ACTIVISION is beyond me. PGR will live on as a launch title for the next Xbox. And seeing how great The Darkness 2 seems to be despite a new developer I have high hopes that PGR 5 will be even better than PGR 4.
 
You've dropped so, so far down the ladder my friend. PGR4 still manages to be replayable long after I've finished all the seasons, purely based on the environments and sublime-as-shit driving model. The most fun I've ever had in SP with a driving game I've ever had, hands down. Not to mention that it's graphics still manage to give FM4 and GT5 a run for their money.

Like I said, it's not a bad game at all, it just never kept my interest for one reason or another. It probably had nothing to do with the game, but considering I barely played it compared to the other three I can't rank it above the others.

I didn't like the bikes at all though.
 
Project Gotham racing 3 was an awesome launch title and I spent lots of hours, lol at "you'll be on gotham live tv" I was pumped when I saw that.

#4 didn't get hooked on me as much but it was still good.

I need a sequel
 

SmokyDave

Member
Well, it was their own choice. They quit PGR and the thriving community because they were pissed at Microsoft giving them hard milestones. How you can have a problem with that and THEN SELL OUT TO ACTIVISION is beyond me. PGR will live on as a launch title for the next Xbox. And seeing how great The Darkness 2 seems to be despite a new developer I have high hopes that PGR 5 will be even better than PGR 4.

I don't share your optimism, I'm afraid. A large part of the appeal of these games (for me, anyway) came from the eclectic vehicle roster. PGR4 had things like the Vanwall GPR V12, the Ford Sierra Cosworth RS500 and the Lotus Cortina. It had an incredible triumvirate of British Bikes (Triumph Trident, Norton 500 Manx & BSA Gold Star DBD34) as well, something I've never seen in other racing games.

I fear that we'll not see a varied roster like that in PGR5 if it's handled outside of the UK.
 

Shaneus

Member
I don't share your optimism, I'm afraid. A large part of the appeal of these games (for me, anyway) came from the eclectic vehicle roster. PGR4 had things like the Vanwall GPR V12, the Ford Sierra Cosworth RS500 and the Lotus Cortina. It had an incredible triumvirate of British Bikes (Triumph Trident, Norton 500 Manx & BSA Gold Star DBD34) as well, something I've never seen in other racing games.

I fear that we'll not see a varied roster like that in PGR5 if it's handled outside of the UK.
Like I've mentioned numerous times in this thread, the appeal for me was that it had a great UK design aesthetic, on par with old Codies and Psygnosis titles. In fact, I'd go so far to say that they were one of the last houses who could effortlessly pull that feel off. Blood Stone and Blur still had a very "British" feel to them, despite being very recent. That probably filtered through to the car selection as well, to be honest.
 

The Crimson Kid

what are you waiting for
I probably have the most fond memories from this racing series than from any other.

PGR1: Drifting around right turns in San Fran while listening to a soundtrack full of my favorite songs.

PGR2: Playing on Xbox Live for the first time and having everyone in the room actually say hello to me when I joined my first room. I stayed in that first lobby talking to everyone, racing without everyone piling up in the first corner, and won half the races too! If only the sense of community on Xbox Live were still as strong as it was then, I wouldn't ever balk at paying for it.

PGR3: Playing my first race in cockpit view with that motion blur instantly brought a smile to my face in a way few games have since. I also spent hours in those garages marveling at the cars (and playing Geometry Wars!).

Also worth noting is the time I showed off New York to two former residents of a district in the game. They recognized dozens of stores and landmarks and actually were able to call out what was coming up before any of us had seen it a couple times.

PGR4 was pretty damn solid overall but it never clicked as much as the other 3 with me. It was still very good on most fronts but I felt it could've used a bit more work on the graphics and the bikes in particular. Also the average quality of the new tracks was a bit lower than the series average imo. Even then, it's still leagues better than most racing games that come out these days.
 

cbox

Member
PGR2: Playing on Xbox Live for the first time and having everyone in the room actually say hello to me when I joined my first room. I stayed in that first lobby talking to everyone, racing without everyone piling up in the first corner, and won half the races too! If only the sense of community on Xbox Live were still as strong as it was then, I wouldn't ever balk at paying for it.

I met most of my live friends in pgr2 back in the day, and we still race every now in then be it forza 4 or even gt5 - amazing times for sure.
 
Speaking of PGR4, didn't a patch mess the cockpit shadows up?

Will deleting everything PGR4-related (expect for the saves) restore it? Or was it something Bizarre patched prior to release? I can't remember.

PGR4 is my favourite racer this gen (and probably my favourite racer ever), it just never bores, you can play for hours or just pick it up for a quickie (of pure videogame sex, that is).
 
I met most of my live friends in pgr2 back in the day, and we still race every now in then be it forza 4 or even gt5 - amazing times for sure.

Same here, I still have a bunch of people on my friends list that I met playing PGR2. I firmly believe that playing Cat and Mouse on the Nurburgring in PGR2 stands out as one of the most fun and memorable online gaming memories I have.
 

Jamesways

Member
Speaking of PGR4, didn't a patch mess the cockpit shadows up?

Will deleting everything PGR4-related (expect for the saves) restore it? Or was it something Bizarre patched prior to release? I can't remember.

PGR4 is my favourite racer this gen (and probably my favourite racer ever), it just never bores, you can play for hours or just pick it up for a quickie (of pure videogame sex, that is).

Yes it will restore it, but then you can't d/l the patch/update. Which means no playing online. I think you need the update for the DLC too, so you won't be able to use that content, but I'm not 100% sure on that.

I still love 3 the most. I really enjoy 4, the weather and new cites are fantastic, but I think they messed with the FOV in the cockpits a bit too much. Some are too close, some too low, etc. 3's are better IMO.

*waves to TJP*
Finally can post, eh?
 

Gen X

Trust no one. Eat steaks.
I feel I'm among friends here and would like to post my story of enjoyment Bizarre Creations have given me through the years.

1996 - I saw preview pics of their first Formula One game in OPSM and I was gobsmacked. Still having 8 bit and 16 bit consoles/computers fresh in my mind I just couldn't believe how many polygons were on the screen when only 8 years before the C64 struggled to have a few dozen sprites at one time. I knew this was going to be special so being in New Zealand I got up in the middle of the night and placed an order to the UK through Special Reserve and ordered 3 copies of F1 for myself and two friends. I didn't regret it.

1997 - Wasn't actually up on the play of release dates when this hit, I just used to frequent my regular store once a week. Saw F1 '97 and it was an insta buy. Sure, the game is dumbed down by PC standards but the evolution between the first and second title was phenomenal for its time. Engine failures, suspension wear from riding over the rumble strips, random weather changes and Murray Walker commenting on the changing weather. I played 5 seasons back to back on this game and to this day was the last F1 game I truely enjoyed.

1999 - Placed a mail order to Special Reserve for Metropolis Street Racer the day after I bought my Dreamcast on launch day. (Ordering online was still a bit iffy in those days)

2001 - The game arrived out of the blue. I had almost forgotten about it and I played this to death. Unlike some people who changed the Dreamcasts internal clock to meet criteria for the races, I actually used to see my alarm to get up in early hours of the morning to make that one hour window to race in Japan, San Fran or London. Yes, I was that dedicated. I never did quite finish the game, I found some sort of bug that prevented me from ever having enough Kudos to unlock the last few series of races.

2003 - New Zealand had a very special XBL promotion. Because the service wasn't going to be 'legally' available to Aus or NZ for another year, MS released a pack with PGR2 and Crimson Skies for less than the cost of two games. This came in an exclusive box bundled with a headset and 11 months of XBL. Yes, 11 months and a disclaimer that the account would never ever be able to be extended.

I would not be exagerating if I said myself and a few friends put in well over 800 hrs just into the online play. It was almost a full time job outside of work, only I wasn't working then, I was studying IT and failed because I just wanted to play PGR2.

Towards the end of our 6-8 month stint of playing PGR2 almost every day, Shaneus joined a match one night but it was a bad time. By then the rest of us were veterans, we raced perfectly, sometimes never hitting each other and still having photo finishes. Shaneus got abused for ramming us on the first corner and I think he subesquently left. We were stressing and were burnt out from PGR2. We never returned.

In the World Tour mode I was proud to say I has 4 consecutive #1 scores with one being at the top for over 6 months. I still got a photo somewhere but it might be on an old PC.

2006 - PGR3 came about but wasn't the first game I bought when I got my 360. Loved it but there was something about it missing. I guess because I lived on the other side of the world and no longer played with my buddies that I didn't really enjoy the online mode. Then combined with an unstable router I used to drop a lot resulting in a lot of bad feedback (40% voted to avoid me for leaving the game early. It still haunts my gamertag lol).

2008 - The Club. Look, I confess, I liked The Club but the online was dead so I didn't play it as much as I would've liked. Shame, but I guess there just wasn't a market for it.

But PGR4. Man, was this game the shit or what? The pinnacle of Bizarres racing genre. Thrashed this to death. Went through and finished everything on Gold then went back to do Platinum. Got about 6 Plats from completing it but a long story short, a recovered gamertag broke all my saves and nothing was compatible. I was broken and sold all my games and started afresh.

2010 - Blur. I don't get the hate. When Mario Kart gets the same release every few years (Mario Kart 7 now) and yet Blur is almost identical in every gameplay mechanic just with different eye candy and a great perk system that has been replicated in quite a few games since. The game was incredibly well balance and even with 20 players it was possible to come from Zero to be Hero. Shame the community died on this as I thought it would really have legs.


In order of enjoyment 2>4>1>3 but in order of preference 4>2>1>3. I've never played James Bond but will pick it up one day.

Bizarre, I just want to say, it's been a pleasure and I wish you guys all the best whatever you're doing. You've bought tonnes of enjoyment to gamers everywhere and your love of games has never gone unnoticed. Kudos to you.
 

Shaneus

Member
I feel I'm among friends here and would like to post my story of enjoyment Bizarre Creations have given me through the years.
Mostly friends ;)

Towards the end of our 6-8 month stint of playing PGR2 almost every day, Shaneus joined a match one night but it was a bad time. By then the rest of us were veterans, we raced perfectly, sometimes never hitting each other and still having photo finishes. Shaneus got abused for ramming us on the first corner and I think he subesquently left. We were stressing and were burnt out from PGR2. We never returned.
In all honesty, I really don't remember that at all. I have a vague memory of driving around Paris and Sydney, possibly in multi, but that's it. I never gave MP enough of a go with PGR2 and reading the impressions on it since, I'm ashamed that I did.

In the World Tour mode I was proud to say I has 4 consecutive #1 scores with one being at the top for over 6 months. I still got a photo somewhere but it might be on an old PC.
oZL2w.jpg



2008 - The Club. Look, I confess, I liked The Club but the online was dead so I didn't play it as much as I would've liked. Shame, but I guess there just wasn't a market for it.

But PGR4. Man, was this game the shit or what? The pinnacle of Bizarres racing genre. Thrashed this to death. Went through and finished everything on Gold then went back to do Platinum. Got about 6 Plats from completing it but a long story short, a recovered gamertag broke all my saves and nothing was compatible. I was broken and sold all my games and started afresh.

2010 - Blur. I don't get the hate. When Mario Kart gets the same release every few years (Mario Kart 7 now) and yet Blur is almost identical in every gameplay mechanic just with different eye candy and a great perk system that has been replicated in quite a few games since. The game was incredibly well balance and even with 20 players it was possible to come from Zero to be Hero. Shame the community died on this as I thought it would really have legs.


In order of enjoyment 2>4>1>3 but in order of preference 4>2>1>3. I've never played James Bond but will pick it up one day.

Bizarre, I just want to say, it's been a pleasure and I wish you guys all the best whatever you're doing. You've bought tonnes of enjoyment to gamers everywhere and your love of games has never gone unnoticed. Kudos to you.
In all seriousness, that was one awesome post and a great love letter to Bizarre. PGR4 was the duck's nuts for me as well, I just don't see how anyone can not put it above all the others, even including hindsight. The fact I still play it on the reg says a lot about it.

As for Blur, I don't think there was ever a great amount of hate for it, just that it had a truly odd marketing campaign, along with a release date that was like sending it to the slaughterhouse and a push for the online FB/Twitter thing that was a gamble (that seemed like a push by Activision, I doubt Bizarre were behind the idea) that lead to it's downfall. Pretty sure the game got pretty solid 7's and 8's around the traps at the time.

Definitely check out Blood Stone as well. You can see where corners were cut (ie. cutscenes which were clearly meant to be bookends for driving segments) but it's a fun, if shallow 3PS. Shame Daniel Craig didn't put any effort into the voice acting though, he's as bad as Harrison Ford in the cinema release of Blade Runner. Possibly worse.
 

TwiztidElf

Member
Towards the end of our 6-8 month stint of playing PGR2 almost every day, Shaneus joined a match one night but it was a bad time. By then the rest of us were veterans, we raced perfectly, sometimes never hitting each other and still having photo finishes.

In order of enjoyment 2>4>1>3
Good times. Can't believe how close we used to race on Basil's without smashing. :)
I don't think online gaming will ever be that good for me again.

That PGR order is the correct one.
 
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